More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

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Al Czervic
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Al Czervic »

Nicklan wrote:
These are the facts as provided by the same consultants that built and sold British Columbia the New Ships in Germany, not worth much.

Any thing that really is a fact is information that BC Ferries already knew, like buses and trucks for example
This is what 26 miles about what double the distance the fast cats operate in Hong Kong Harbor for example.

The time frame lets see the fast cats can run up to 38 knots about double the speed of the double ended barges. So as they have no trucks or buses to load anunload only cars they can also load and unload in half the time.
High speed does use more fuel, however if you slow them dowm they are better on fuel also, not to mention the much smaller crews needed.
What about the fact that investing the British Columbians Tax dollars in British Columbia instead of Germany also keeps that money here in BC.


You cannot BS about things like the Fast Cats commercial vehicle capacity; the fact that they came in overweight; or that because they were overweight they could not attain their target speed when fully loaded; even when the engines were driven beyond 90% of targeted workload; nor if you really do know anything about marine engines can you BS that at 90% of workload (or more) you are exponentially using tons more fuel at that kind of throttle.

Nor can you BS about the wake or the well documented breakdowns. Seriously man you just can’t BS about this stuff; it is all factual. And yet you try to BS your way through it all clearly making it up as you go along. Keep fabricating the facts; obviously it is some kind of game for you. I will leave you to re-write history as you see fit. Good luck with that.

PS. Maybe you can add in the Vancouver Canucks making the playoffs last year as well. No doubt you were there “first hand” when that occurred as well.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

Al Czervic wrote:
Nicklan wrote:
These are the facts as provided by the same consultants that built and sold British Columbia the New Ships in Germany, not worth much.

Any thing that really is a fact is information that BC Ferries already knew, like buses and trucks for example
This is what 26 miles about what double the distance the fast cats operate in Hong Kong Harbor for example.

The time frame lets see the fast cats can run up to 38 knots about double the speed of the double ended barges. So as they have no trucks or buses to load anunload only cars they can also load and unload in half the time.
High speed does use more fuel, however if you slow them dowm they are better on fuel also, not to mention the much smaller crews needed.
What about the fact that investing the British Columbians Tax dollars in British Columbia instead of Germany also keeps that money here in BC.


You cannot BS about things like the Fast Cats commercial vehicle capacity; the fact that they came in overweight; or that because they were overweight they could not attain their target speed when fully loaded; even when the engines were driven beyond 90% of targeted workload; nor if you really do know anything about marine engines can you BS that at 90% of workload (or more) you are exponentially using tons more fuel at that kind of throttle.

Nor can you BS about the wake or the well documented breakdowns. Seriously man you just can’t BS about this stuff; it is all factual. And yet you try to BS your way through it all clearly making it up as you go along. Keep fabricating the facts; obviously it is some kind of game for you. I will leave you to re-write history as you see fit. Good luck with that.

PS. Maybe you can add in the Vancouver Canucks making the playoffs last year as well. No doubt you were there “first hand” when that occurred as well.


Woulds you like to go to any marine engine manufacturer and study the fuel usage ,
The same with all ships they give you the ships rated fuel usage based on speed all of them
You don't seem to have any problem to BS everyone, I on the other hand paid my own way for all of this, shore I was lead to believe that BC Ferries just did not want to build them at the Washington Groups yards, I know what I am doing and have no reason to lie about any of it, now on the other hand you and the rest of your Liberal Gang seem to allways have troble telling the truth !
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by fluffy »

Nicklan wrote:The time frame lets see the fast cats can run up to 38 knots about double the speed of the double ended barges. So as they have no trucks or buses to load anunload only cars they can also load and unload in half the time.
High speed does use more fuel, however if you slow them dowm they are better on fuel also, not to mention the much smaller crews needed.


Double the speed, sure if you can operate at full speed, which they couldn't due to excessive fuel consumption and destructive wakes. Loading times were also extended because of the need to keep the ships in balance when they were moored. Take all this into account and you basically had a new ship that carried a smaller load than the existing fleet, couldn't carry it any faster, and carried it at a greater cost.

and then Nicklan wrote:I know what I am doing and have no reason to lie about any of it, now on the other hand you and the rest of your Liberal Gang seem to allways have troble telling the truth !


I'm not convinced. The liberals are just as incompetent as the NDP ever were, and would stretch the truth as much as they had to to cover their sorry butts, just like the NDP before them, and the Socreds before that.
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Al Czervic
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Al Czervic »

flüffy wrote:
Nicklan wrote:The time frame lets see the fast cats can run up to 38 knots about double the speed of the double ended barges. So as they have no trucks or buses to load anunload only cars they can also load and unload in half the time.
High speed does use more fuel, however if you slow them dowm they are better on fuel also, not to mention the much smaller crews needed.


Double the speed, sure if you can operate at full speed, which they couldn't due to excessive fuel consumption and destructive wakes. Loading times were also extended because of the need to keep the ships in balance when they were moored. Take all this into account and you basically had a new ship that carried a smaller load than the existing fleet, couldn't carry it any faster, and carried it at a greater cost


Exactly! This guy is a loon trying to re-write history.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

Al Czervic wrote:
flüffy wrote:
Nicklan wrote:The time frame lets see the fast cats can run up to 38 knots about double the speed of the double ended barges. So as they have no trucks or buses to load anunload only cars they can also load and unload in half the time.
High speed does use more fuel, however if you slow them dowm they are better on fuel also, not to mention the much smaller crews needed.


Double the speed, sure if you can operate at full speed, which they couldn't due to excessive fuel consumption and destructive wakes. Loading times were also extended because of the need to keep the ships in balance when they were moored. Take all this into account and you basically had a new ship that carried a smaller load than the existing fleet, couldn't carry it any faster, and carried it at a greater cost


Exactly! This guy is a loon trying to re-write history.


The only loons on here are the ones that continue to try and explain all the Dirty Deals of Gordo and You Liberal Gangsters !
The truth is there is nothing wrong with those ships!
The truth is 700 million for 3 barges is a little over priced!
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by NAB »

Nicklan wrote:
Al Czervic wrote:
flüffy wrote:
Nicklan wrote:The time frame lets see the fast cats can run up to 38 knots about double the speed of the double ended barges. So as they have no trucks or buses to load anunload only cars they can also load and unload in half the time.
High speed does use more fuel, however if you slow them dowm they are better on fuel also, not to mention the much smaller crews needed.


Double the speed, sure if you can operate at full speed, which they couldn't due to excessive fuel consumption and destructive wakes. Loading times were also extended because of the need to keep the ships in balance when they were moored. Take all this into account and you basically had a new ship that carried a smaller load than the existing fleet, couldn't carry it any faster, and carried it at a greater cost


Exactly! This guy is a loon trying to re-write history.


The only loons on here are the ones that continue to try and explain all the Dirty Deals of Gordo and You Liberal Gangsters !
The truth is there is nothing wrong with those ships!
The truth is 700 million for 3 barges is a little over priced!


The "truth"??? What am I missing? How do you get $700 million for those three "barges". My understanding is that the contract, given changes in rates of exchange since originally let, is approximately 300 million, or 100 million per ship. It is also my understanding that this was roughly half the price of the lowest Canadian bid. Perhaps I have interpreted wrong and that was the per ship price? But that wouldn't make sense of course.

Further, my information suggests that none of the Canadian bidders were either capable of, or willing to, subscribe to the rigid contractual terms and penalties imposed by BC Ferries.

Edit to add: Just to clarify - I am assuming that when you use the word "ships" you are referring to the "Fast Cats", and when you use the word "barges" you are referring to the new Super C class Ferries - and that it is the latter you are referencing in conjunction with your claim they cost 700 Million. That price seems more in tune with the end cost to taxpayers of the 3 useless Fa(s)t Cats.

Nab
Last edited by NAB on Mar 23rd, 2009, 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

Nabcom wrote:
Nicklan wrote:
Al Czervic wrote:
flüffy wrote:
Nicklan wrote:The time frame lets see the fast cats can run up to 38 knots about double the speed of the double ended barges. So as they have no trucks or buses to load anunload only cars they can also load and unload in half the time.
High speed does use more fuel, however if you slow them dowm they are better on fuel also, not to mention the much smaller crews needed.


Double the speed, sure if you can operate at full speed, which they couldn't due to excessive fuel consumption and destructive wakes. Loading times were also extended because of the need to keep the ships in balance when they were moored. Take all this into account and you basically had a new ship that carried a smaller load than the existing fleet, couldn't carry it any faster, and carried it at a greater cost


Exactly! This guy is a loon trying to re-write history.


The only loons on here are the ones that continue to try and explain all the Dirty Deals of Gordo and You Liberal Gangsters !
The truth is there is nothing wrong with those ships!
The truth is 700 million for 3 barges is a little over priced!


The "truth"??? What am I missing? How do you get $700 million for those three "barges". My understanding is that the contract, given changes in rates of exchange since originally let, is approximately 300 million, or 100 million per ship. It is also my understanding that this was roughly half the price of the lowest Canadian bid. Perhaps I have interpreted wrong and that was the per ship price? But that wouldn't make sense of course.

Further, my information suggests that none of the Canadian bidders were either capable of, or willing to, subscribe to the rigid contractual terms and penalties imposed by BC Ferries.

Nab

Your understanding is wrong, the deal was in US dollars , even the bond offering in New York was in US Dollars, and so is the over 700 million the exchange in to exchange it from US to Canadian like I said about a billion dollars.
Atleast 2 bidder where capable and willing, as I had Davie and Irving Shipbuilding also. Andrew the CEO of Irving even came out here at my invitation to meet BC Ferries and tell them in person they would build the Barges for them.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by NAB »

Nicklan wrote:
Nabcom wrote:
Nicklan wrote:
Al Czervic wrote:
flüffy wrote:
Nicklan wrote:The time frame lets see the fast cats can run up to 38 knots about double the speed of the double ended barges. So as they have no trucks or buses to load anunload only cars they can also load and unload in half the time.
High speed does use more fuel, however if you slow them dowm they are better on fuel also, not to mention the much smaller crews needed.


Double the speed, sure if you can operate at full speed, which they couldn't due to excessive fuel consumption and destructive wakes. Loading times were also extended because of the need to keep the ships in balance when they were moored. Take all this into account and you basically had a new ship that carried a smaller load than the existing fleet, couldn't carry it any faster, and carried it at a greater cost


Exactly! This guy is a loon trying to re-write history.


The only loons on here are the ones that continue to try and explain all the Dirty Deals of Gordo and You Liberal Gangsters !
The truth is there is nothing wrong with those ships!
The truth is 700 million for 3 barges is a little over priced!


The "truth"??? What am I missing? How do you get $700 million for those three "barges". My understanding is that the contract, given changes in rates of exchange since originally let, is approximately 300 million, or 100 million per ship. It is also my understanding that this was roughly half the price of the lowest Canadian bid. Perhaps I have interpreted wrong and that was the per ship price? But that wouldn't make sense of course.

Further, my information suggests that none of the Canadian bidders were either capable of, or willing to, subscribe to the rigid contractual terms and penalties imposed by BC Ferries.

Nab

Your understanding is wrong, the deal was in US dollars , even the bond offering in New York was in US Dollars, and so is the over 700 million the exchange in to exchange it from US to Canadian like I said about a billion dollars.
Atleast 2 bidder where capable and willing, as I had Davie and Irving Shipbuilding also. Andrew the CEO of Irving even came out here at my invitation to meet BC Ferries and tell them in person they would build the Barges for them.


Wrong again. The contract deal was the 3 ships for 206.4 EUROS - approximately 325 Million Canadian at the time. Due to favourable change afterwards in exchange rates it ended up at 290 Million Canadian, for a windfall further saving of approximately 35 Million Canadian.

And you still haven't addressed the fact that the Canadian bids, which were most likely in US dollars, the lowest of which was still almost double the German bid comparatively.

Edit to add: Incidentally, compare that to the cost of the crazy home built Fast Cats. Originally estimated at 70 Million per vessel, they ended up at $150 Million per vessel and still climbing, and delivered 3 years behind schedule to boot. And one of them never did see any service as I recall, while the other two were just one disaster after another. I actually took a trip on one of them, and swore I would never go on one again, even if it meant waiting hours for one of the regular ferries.

So much for Canadian shipbuilding capability LOL.

Nab
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Merry »

It's very difficult for the average lay person to sort out just who is telling the truth and who is not in arguments such as this. However, it does appear that those in favour of the Liberals position have more facts to back them up Nicklan. But that said, it also seems to me that it may not have been absolutely necessary for the Liberals to "throw the baby out with the bath water" by completely eliminating the fast cats. After all, if they're being used successfully in places such as Nova Scotia and Hong Kong, then surely a role could have been found for them here. Yes, it would appear that buying them was not the best decision, but once the mistake was made was it absolutely necessary to eliminate them altogether? I'm not so sure any more.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by NAB »

Pinkie wrote:It's very difficult for the average lay person to sort out just who is telling the truth and who is not in arguments such as this. However, it does appear that those in favour of the Liberals position have more facts to back them up Nicklan. But that said, it also seems to me that it may not have been absolutely necessary for the Liberals to "throw the baby out with the bath water" by completely eliminating the fast cats. After all, if they're being used successfully in places such as Nova Scotia and Hong Kong, then surely a role could have been found for them here. Yes, it would appear that buying them was not the best decision, but once the mistake was made was it absolutely necessary to eliminate them altogether? I'm not so sure any more.


The facts are what they are Pinkie. It is not a Liberal, or any other political, position - particularly when you consider BC Ferries is independent of government - it was a purely business position based on lousy economics of trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. One might question however whether it was right or wrong for this government to privatize BC Ferries - but that's a different argument that will always be an issue between NDP and Liberal/Right Wing philosophy.

Personally, I am quite confident that the government (both former NDP and current Liberals) explored every opportunity to find a buyer who could make use of the Fast Cats (whether their disposition was politically motivated or not). So far no one seems interested, so they sit as little more than scrap metal value.

Edit to add: A few of years ago a private company established a smaller fast cat passenger ferry service between Nanaimo Harbour and Vancouver Harbour. It failed as I recall for a variety of reasons, and they are now out of business.

BTW - no one in their right mind goes tearing around the Straits of Georgia in fast boats, particularly fast weak hulled ones that could sustain major damage should they hit a submerged log.

Nab
Last edited by NAB on Mar 23rd, 2009, 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Merry »

But that's my point Nab, if they're just sitting idle wouldn't it have been better to find SOME sort of use for them? Why is it that places like Nova Scotia and Hong Kong are using them, but we consider them to be no better than scrap metal? I'm missing something here.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

Pinkie wrote:But that's my point Nab, if they're just sitting idle wouldn't it have been better to find SOME sort of use for them? Why is it that places like Nova Scotia and Hong Kong are using them, but we consider them to be no better than scrap metal? I'm missing something here.


The truth is they are using at least one during the 2010 games !

The liberals are the only folks that claimed the Fast Cats where no good, no one else has or will,

The Liberals have never told the truth and Never will

I don't have a problem with the truth, that is Gordo and the Liberals that have that problem.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by NAB »

Pinkie wrote:But that's my point Nab, if they're just sitting idle wouldn't it have been better to find SOME sort of use for them? Why is it that places like Nova Scotia and Hong Kong are using them, but we consider them to be no better than scrap metal? I'm missing something here.


Note my add on in my previous post Pinkie. To me such fast vessels, particularly if poorly and weakly designed to keep their weight down, are just not safe at speed in any rough waters or where major debris such as logs may be encountered. Add to that they are not economical to run at hull down speeds with their small capacity and they become useless. Why they ever went with diesel engines in those things I will never know. Perhaps it was a cost cutting attempt. On top of that there is no ventilation below decks on the vehicle deck, and once aboard you had to go topside and where locked up there, unable to return to your vehicle for any reason, including to check to see if your dog was OK. Once was enough for me.

Maybe they could use them as a static floating home for the homeless? ;-)

Nab
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

Nabcom wrote:
Pinkie wrote:But that's my point Nab, if they're just sitting idle wouldn't it have been better to find SOME sort of use for them? Why is it that places like Nova Scotia and Hong Kong are using them, but we consider them to be no better than scrap metal? I'm missing something here.


Note my add on in my previous post Pinkie. To me such fast vessels, particularly if poorly and weakly designed to keep their weight down, are just not safe at speed in any rough waters or where major debris such as logs may be encountered. Add to that they are not economical to run at hull down speeds with their small capacity and they become useless. Why they ever went with diesel engines in those things I will never know. Perhaps it was a cost cutting attempt. On top of that there is no ventilation below decks on the vehicle deck, and once aboard you had to go topside and where locked up there, unable to return to your vehicle for any reason, including to check to see if your dog was OK. Once was enough for me.

Maybe they could use them as a static floating home for the homeless? ;-)

Nab

Maybe Gordo and his lieing Liberal gang could have used the 2010 village for public housing as they stated they would , or perhaps Gordo and his Lieing Liberals could actully spend that 1.5 billion on public housing all of it !
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

Nabcom wrote:
Pinkie wrote:But that's my point Nab, if they're just sitting idle wouldn't it have been better to find SOME sort of use for them? Why is it that places like Nova Scotia and Hong Kong are using them, but we consider them to be no better than scrap metal? I'm missing something here.


Note my add on in my previous post Pinkie. To me such fast vessels, particularly if poorly and weakly designed to keep their weight down, are just not safe at speed in any rough waters or where major debris such as logs may be encountered. Add to that they are not economical to run at hull down speeds with their small capacity and they become useless. Why they ever went with diesel engines in those things I will never know. Perhaps it was a cost cutting attempt. On top of that there is no ventilation below decks on the vehicle deck, and once aboard you had to go topside and where locked up there, unable to return to your vehicle for any reason, including to check to see if your dog was OK. Once was enough for me.

Maybe they could use them as a static floating home for the homeless? ;-)

Nab

I repeat there are at least 100 of these ships operating around the world with no problems anywhere but HERE ?
For here is the only place they used them as Policical Foot Balls, another billion dollars out the window.
The Liberal Gangsters and Gordo are desperate to try and cover up the facts !

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