More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

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Gone_Fishin
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Gone_Fishin »

butcher99 wrote: Now to bring this back to the original bond issue, what is wrong with the government lending money to people to start up worthwhile projects?


What is wrong with the bond idea is that the interest rates that you have to pay on bonds are way, wayyyyyyyy higher than what the BC gov't can get when they borrow through their regular credit facilities. Therefore, it's a colossal waste of taxpayers' money straight into that evil known as "interest on debt". But, it's a great snowjob by Carole James, and of course despite the cost to the taxpayers of BC, she'll forge ahead with it to fulfill her stupid election promise, even though it will damage BC's credit rating. If we have more debt at high interest rates, our credit rating suffers.

BC has a "AAA" credit rating - and, sorry NDPers, but it's because of "Gordo" and the past 8 years of economic management that our credit rating is so good.
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damngrumpy
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by damngrumpy »

Actually the province was built with BC bonds. Back in the day WAC Bennett used bonds to build the
damns and BC Rail, among other things. Bonds are a better way than the current public private partnerships. The interest would in fact go back to BC residents rather than going out in profits to
companies, not to mention the additional costs of maintainance contracts.
The Okanagan bridge is a prime example. The cost is 187 million however, with the maintainance
contract, its over 500 million dollars.
The current system is not working. The Vancouver Trade centre is almost 800 million over budget
The Olympics are billions over budget, Face it, bonds are far better than what we are getting now
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by butcher99 »

[quote="Fisher-Dude"][quote="butcher99"] Now to bring this back to the original bond issue, what is wrong with the government lending money to people to start up worthwhile projects? [/quote]


BC has a "AAA" credit rating - and, sorry NDPers, but it's because of "Gordo" and the past 8 years of economic management that our credit rating is so good.[/quote]

Would this be the same Gordo who plunged BC into a huge deficit, the biggest ever, when he first came to power? Would this be the same Gordo who has wasted hundreds of millions in PPP partnerships, the one who closed schools and hospitals and gave us some of the longest wait times for medical procedures in Canada? Perhaps the same Gordo who at the same time gave us the most expensive medical premiums in canada? Would this be the same Gordo who's government was only pulled out of the deficit by growing revenues from Oil and gas and who's government is about to sink in red ink due to the Olympics and wanting to build an edifice to themselves? The same Gordo who is going to drive us into HUGE debt with the olympics which benefit only a few rich at the expense of the rest of us?
Perhaps the same Gordo who saddled us with a 1% GREEN tax?
Our credit may be good, but our debt is growing

Yes, the Olympics were an NDP idea. The expense is all Gordos.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Al Czervic »

butcher99 wrote:
Our credit may be good, but our debt is growing.


If you are truly concerned about debt than you are likely aware that no government in the history of British Columbia added more debt onto the backs of BC resident’s than your friends in the NDP.

The Liberals have a very; very long way to go before the approach anywhere near the levels of debt added by the NDP. How anyone could profess to care about “debt” and ignore the debt devastation added by the NDP is beyond me. Do some homework for a change.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by butcher99 »

[quote="Al Czervic"][quote="butcher99"]

Our credit may be good, but our debt is growing.[/quote]

If you are truly concerned about debt than you are likely aware that no government in the history of British Columbia added more debt onto the backs of BC resident’s than your friends in the NDP.

The Liberals have a very; very long way to go before the approach anywhere near the levels of debt added by the NDP. How anyone could profess to care about “debt” and ignore the debt devastation added by the NDP is beyond me. Do some homework for a change.[/quote]


You need to check facts instead of spouting retoric.

The NDP left BC with a surplus that the Liberals blew. BCs. debt has grown every year the Liberals have been in power. Yes, the budgets were mostly balanced except for the first year where they had the biggest deficit in BC history. However the BC debt has grown yearly

In the history of BC and the rest of Canada the most fiscally responsible governments Canadians have had have been the NDP. The lone exception was the Bob Rae gov. in Ontario but it turns out he was a Liberal anyway.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Al Czervic »

butcher99 wrote:
Al Czervic wrote:
butcher99 wrote:
Our credit may be good, but our debt is growing.


If you are truly concerned about debt than you are likely aware that no government in the history of British Columbia added more debt onto the backs of BC resident’s than your friends in the NDP.

The Liberals have a very; very long way to go before the approach anywhere near the levels of debt added by the NDP. How anyone could profess to care about “debt” and ignore the debt devastation added by the NDP is beyond me. Do some homework for a change.



You need to check facts instead of spouting retoric.

The NDP left BC with a surplus that the Liberals blew. BCs. debt has grown every year the Liberals have been in power. Yes, the budgets were mostly balanced except for the first year where they had the biggest deficit in BC history. However the BC debt has grown yearly

In the history of BC and the rest of Canada the most fiscally responsible governments Canadians have had have been the NDP. The lone exception was the Bob Rae gov. in Ontario but it turns out he was a Liberal anyway.


Let’s be clear. The NDP presented 10 budgets over 10 years in government and only TWO were actually balanced. The last two. Fudget Budgets aside where it was proven the NDP intentionally lied in order to win and election let’s deal with the final so called “surplus” that the Liberals “blew” according to you.

Do some homework and you will see that $ 1.5 Billion of the NDP surplus was a one time only adjustment as a result of their offloading of the BC Public Sector Pension Plan that was an unfunded 1.5 Billion liability at the time the NDP offloaded it from the government books courtesy of the BC Public Sector Pension Plan Act that the NDP introduced in 1999 in order to unload in 2000 so they could carry a surplus into the 2001 election. Basically what this means is that the NDP sold out every retired government worker just so they could boast a one time surplus at election time. These are all true facts and I amazed you are so clueless on this topic. Why do you think the NDP never boasts about this? Because they know they sold out retired government workers. It’s the same reason why the NDP never mentions the doctor shortage because it was their 10 years of doing nothing(not adding a single doctor) that created the problem.

Let me ask you this. Why do the NDP and Carole James never mention the Provincial debt ? Because they know that no government in the history of British Columbia, including the BC Liberals; have added anywhere near as much debt as the NDP has.

Again, all true facts. Your claim that NDP governments are fiscally responsible is absolute crap. And the same horse dung that Jack Layton would try and peddle
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by butcher99 »

Say what you will, the fact remains the the most fiscally responsible governments in Canada including BC have been NDP.

Why not take the time to see how much the debt has risen under the liberals? It really will make you wonder how they can call the budget balanced.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Al Czervic »

butcher99 wrote:Say what you will, the fact remains the the most fiscally responsible governments in Canada including BC have been NDP.

Why not take the time to see how much the debt has risen under the liberals? It really will make you wonder how they can call the budget balanced.


I have taken the time. I do know how much the debt has risen both under the Liberals and under the NDP. They are not even in the same league let alone solar system. No government in the history of the Province has added more debt to BC than the NDP. As stated the Liberals could take on the NDP junk bond scheme and add $ 10 BILLION in debt and still be nowhere near what the NDP has added.

The BC Liberals have actually repaid debt in some budget years. The NDP added the most debt ever. More than the Socreds; more than the Liberals; more than anyone in spite of only running this Province 10 years; and still they want to add more another $ 10 Billion in NDP junk bond debt. This does not make for responsible government and the credit rating tells the real story; under the NDP our credit rating drops like a rock. Fact. Under the BC Liberals it is climbs to some of the highest levels in Canada. Also a fact. These facts cannot be disputed as they are well documented by credit rating agencies.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by steven lloyd »

Al Czervic wrote: Do some homework and you will see that $ 1.5 Billion of the NDP surplus was a one time only adjustment as a result of their offloading of the BC Public Sector Pension Plan that was an unfunded 1.5 Billion liability at the time the NDP offloaded it from the government books courtesy of the BC Public Sector Pension Plan Act that the NDP introduced in 1999 in order to unload in 2000 so they could carry a surplus into the 2001 election. Basically what this means is that the NDP sold out every retired government worker just so they could boast a one time surplus at election time.


But Al, aren't the criminal Liberlas doing essentially the same thing by selling off public assets to balance their books (thereby selling out every citizen of this province)?
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

Al Czervic wrote:
B.C. NDP floats $10B green bond proposal
Last Updated: Thursday, February 12, 2009 | 2:55 PM PT CBC News
The leader of B.C.'s NDP is floating a $10 billion plan to stimulate the B.C. economy with what they're calling a green bonds investment plan, but the Liberals say it's an expensive idea.

Opposition Leader Carole James said Thursday that if elected, an NDP government would sell $1 billion worth of the green bonds every year for 10 years to create a fund to invest in green infrastructure and technology, which in turn would create new jobs.

"I want to see new investment in every corner of our province, creating opportunities in the new green economy for business and job growth," said James.

"This is a real chance for people in B.C. to say 'I want a green bond. My money is going to be safe.' "

The money could be used for everything from expanding transit to retrofitting homes, creating 15,000 new green jobs in construction, manufacturing, transportation and service sectors, she said.

But Finance Minister Colin Hansen said the NDP saving bonds launched in the 1990s were a financial disaster and the New Democrats have a record of wasting tax dollars.

Hansen said the government doesn't need to issue savings bonds because it has no trouble borrowing money much more cheaply now with its AAA credit rating.

"For the NDP to go out to the public with the cost of advertising, the cost of commissions and the fact they would actually have to offer a higher rate to those that bought the bonds, adds to costs at the end of the day, rather than decreases costs," said Hansen.

If James is serious about backing environmentally friendly projects, she should support some of those already underway, he said.


Aside form the Obvious that the NDP is planning on adding another $ 10 BILLION in dept; what seriously shocks me is the stupidity of the manner that they intend to do so.

Regardless of your political views of Premier Campbell and the BC Liberal Government the one fact that cannot be denied or distorted is that through their management of the BC economy they have significantly INCREASED BC’s credit rating after the massive damage inflicted upon it by the NDP

With a higher Credit Rating (ours is now amongst the highest in Canada) our Government can borrow money at much lower rates. This is what is so troubling about Carole James insane plan to try and sell $ 10 BILLION worth of bonds. The interest that we taxpayers will have to pay on these bonds will be considerably higher than what the government could simply go out and borrow the money for. More so the added money we are paying on additional borrowing debt interest means less money available for health care, education and whatever else. There is simply no sound financial reason to borrow money in the irresponsible manner of selling bonds.

What is more troubling is that for these bonds to have any buyers they have to offer an attractive rate of return for people to bother investing in them. Let’s face it; with all kinds of layoffs and mill closures the so called “average working person” that the NDP religiously purports to represent will not be able to afford these bonds. Meanwhile the more wealthy folk (who typically vote Liberal) will be the one’s primarily being able to afford the bonds and enjoy the profitable rate of return. Meaning that the wealthy will benefit form the bonds while the taxes taken from those who cannot afford the bonds will be the one’s paying for it. Once again this ends up being a slap in the fact to the typical NDP supporter.

To all you NDP supporters out there I hope you ask your local candidate exactly how they can justify this bit of sheer financial stupidity. It is evident that Carole James is looking to turn BC taxpayers into a giant cash factory loan operation. Scary times.


Actully this is a good idea,

As these investment will produce profits and repay they loans. Their will actully be no cost to the tax payer, as the funds will generate Cash Flow to pay for themselfs.

A Very GOOD Idea I must say !
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

steven lloyd wrote:
Al Czervic wrote: Do some homework and you will see that $ 1.5 Billion of the NDP surplus was a one time only adjustment as a result of their offloading of the BC Public Sector Pension Plan that was an unfunded 1.5 Billion liability at the time the NDP offloaded it from the government books courtesy of the BC Public Sector Pension Plan Act that the NDP introduced in 1999 in order to unload in 2000 so they could carry a surplus into the 2001 election. Basically what this means is that the NDP sold out every retired government worker just so they could boast a one time surplus at election time.


But Al, aren't the criminal Liberlas doing essentially the same thing by selling off public assets to balance their books (thereby selling out every citizen of this province)?


Not exactly as the Liberal Gangsters only will sell to other Liberal gangsters or Companies from out of the country fron $ome rea$on?
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by butcher99 »

[quote="Nicklan"][quote="steven lloyd"][quote="Al Czervic"] Do some homework and you will see that $ 1.5 Billion of the NDP surplus was a one time only adjustment as a result of their offloading of the BC Public Sector Pension Plan that was an unfunded 1.5 Billion liability at the time the NDP offloaded it from the government books courtesy of the BC Public Sector Pension Plan Act that the NDP introduced in 1999 in order to unload in 2000 so they could carry a surplus into the 2001 election. Basically what this means is that the NDP sold out every retired government worker just so they could boast a one time surplus at election time. [/quote]

But Al, aren't the criminal Liberlas doing essentially the same thing by selling off public assets to balance their books (thereby selling out every citizen of this province)?[/quote]

Not exactly as the Liberal Gangsters only will sell to other Liberal gangsters or Companies from out of the country fron $ome rea$on?[/quote]


so, we have a great "liberal" government in BC. So great that when a huge project that was promised to be a drill and no disruption, that turned into a cut and cover that was to take 3 months per section turned into a 3 year project that bankrupted businesses the current government does not even have the balls to show up and explain how this all happened. This great PPP event was to provide NO disruption to the businesses so the businesses did not put up a fight. Once it starts and it turns out those were all lies no one is willing to say what happened.

You are arguing about whether it is a bad idea to borrow money from the citizens of BC and pay them a bit more in interest or to borrow the money at a lower rate and send it to some corporate (AIG?) hog in the US to save a few bucks.

The connection here is one party is thinking about the people and the other is thinking about how to fill the pockets of the rich. The "Liberal" party of BC -in brackets because they are anything but liberal, a SoCred in any other name is still a SoCred- has always since its first days as the SoCred party has always been a party of and for the business people. Personally, I prefer a party that at least thinks about the rest of the province.

Hell, forget business. This party cannot even think outside Vancouver to Abbotsford.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by butcher99 »

[quote="Nicklan"][quote="steven lloyd"][quote="Al Czervic"] Do some homework and you will see that $ 1.5 Billion of the NDP surplus was a one time only adjustment as a result of their offloading of the BC Public Sector Pension Plan that was an unfunded 1.5 Billion liability at the time the NDP offloaded it from the government books courtesy of the BC Public Sector Pension Plan Act that the NDP introduced in 1999 in order to unload in 2000 so they could carry a surplus into the 2001 election. Basically what this means is that the NDP sold out every retired government worker just so they could boast a one time surplus at election time. [/quote]

[/quote]



In response to this series of lies that the Liberals put forward after they were elected, and that you swallowed it appears, allow me to quote the report by the auditors appointed by the "Liberal" party of BC on what they found when the books were examined.
Remember, this was a report commissioned by the Liberal party of BC after they said how poor the economy was in BC and just before they introduced the biggest deficit in BC history. A deficit that came about because of the poor state the NDP left the province in, so the Liberals claim

Quote starts here:

January 17, 2002

BC's Auditor General reviewed the New Democrat government's books for 1999-2000 and confirmed that BC's Budget was balanced in 1999-2000 with a modest surplus. The Auditor also reviewed the New Democrat government's books for 2000-2001 and confirmed that BC's Budget was balanced in 2000-2001 with a 1.5 billion dollar surplus As a result of the Budget Transparency and Accountability Act brought in by the New Democrat government, all the work behind the numbers is now laid out for all British Columbians to see -- line by line. Because of this NDP initiative, BC has the most open and accountable budgetary process in Canada.

In July of 2001, the Fiscal Review Panel appointed by the incoming BC Liberals reviewed the New Democrat balanced budget for 2000-2001 and praised the former government for making BC "a leader" among Canadian governments in public sector accounting.
The panel reported that they had "not found the province's finances to be in a state of crisis". The report of the panel states: "The panel believes that the economic forecast presented in the March budget was reasonable given the information at the time."
The panel also concluded that "Fundamental change is required but cuts in key services should not be the solution."
Media reports on the Fiscal Panel review concluded that while the revised budget tabled by Gary Collins in July 2002 did present a deficit, "Virtually all of it can be blamed not on the NDP, but on the Liberals' recent decision to cut provincial income taxes." (Vaughn Palmer Vancouver Sun July 24, 2001)

End of quote:

Now, care to argue about how poor the NDP fiscal responsibility was?
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Al Czervic »

butcher99 wrote:
You are arguing about whether it is a bad idea to borrow money from the citizens of BC and pay them a bit more in interest or to borrow the money at a lower rate and send it to some corporate (AIG?) hog in the US to save a few bucks.


It never ceases to amaze me how NDP and supporters cannot comprehend the consequences of debt; maybe that is why they always add BILIIONS in debt. What I am trying to point out is that paying MORE interest costs BC taxpayers MORE money. More money paid in interest means less money available for things like healthcare and education.

Not to mention most so called “working people” will never be able to afford the NDP’s looney Bond scheme’ but they are the one’s who end up having to pay for them by the taxes off their back.. Meanwhile those very “evil” (according to the NDP) wealthy folks that can afford the junk bonds they cash in on the returns.

Your reference to the “AIG Hog” from the States is a good one. Much as how the taxes taken from the poor and given to AIG provided the wealthy to cash in on the bonuses well guess what? Under Carole James NDP looney junk bonds plan taxes taken from BC’s poor will allow the wealthy to cash in on the returns just as is the case with AIG. You are so clueless you cannot see this?
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Al Czervic »

butcher99 wrote:
Nicklan wrote:
steven lloyd wrote:
Al Czervic wrote: Do some homework and you will see that $ 1.5 Billion of the NDP surplus was a one time only adjustment as a result of their offloading of the BC Public Sector Pension Plan that was an unfunded 1.5 Billion liability at the time the NDP offloaded it from the government books courtesy of the BC Public Sector Pension Plan Act that the NDP introduced in 1999 in order to unload in 2000 so they could carry a surplus into the 2001 election. Basically what this means is that the NDP sold out every retired government worker just so they could boast a one time surplus at election time.






In response to this series of lies that the Liberals put forward after they were elected, and that you swallowed it appears, allow me to quote the report by the auditors appointed by the "Liberal" party of BC on what they found when the books were examined.
Remember, this was a report commissioned by the Liberal party of BC after they said how poor the economy was in BC and just before they introduced the biggest deficit in BC history. A deficit that came about because of the poor state the NDP left the province in, so the Liberals claim

Quote starts here:

January 17, 2002

BC's Auditor General reviewed the New Democrat government's books for 1999-2000 and confirmed that BC's Budget was balanced in 1999-2000 with a modest surplus. The Auditor also reviewed the New Democrat government's books for 2000-2001 and confirmed that BC's Budget was balanced in 2000-2001 with a 1.5 billion dollar surplus As a result of the Budget Transparency and Accountability Act brought in by the New Democrat government, all the work behind the numbers is now laid out for all British Columbians to see -- line by line. Because of this NDP initiative, BC has the most open and accountable budgetary process in Canada.

In July of 2001, the Fiscal Review Panel appointed by the incoming BC Liberals reviewed the New Democrat balanced budget for 2000-2001 and praised the former government for making BC "a leader" among Canadian governments in public sector accounting.
The panel reported that they had "not found the province's finances to be in a state of crisis". The report of the panel states: "The panel believes that the economic forecast presented in the March budget was reasonable given the information at the time."
The panel also concluded that "Fundamental change is required but cuts in key services should not be the solution."
Media reports on the Fiscal Panel review concluded that while the revised budget tabled by Gary Collins in July 2002 did present a deficit, "Virtually all of it can be blamed not on the NDP, but on the Liberals' recent decision to cut provincial income taxes." (Vaughn Palmer Vancouver Sun July 24, 2001)

End of quote:

Now, care to argue about how poor the NDP fiscal responsibility was?


I know 10 years olds that have better reading comprehension skills than you do. Did you even read the comments I made that YOU quoted in YOUR post. I acknowledged the $ 1.5 billion surplus. That fact was never in dispute.

What I pointed out was that the $ 1.5B surplus was a one time only adjust made to BC’s books courtesy of the BC Public Sector Pension Plan Act that sold out BC retired Government workers as the pension fund was a $ 1.5B unfunded liability at the time the NDP offloaded it from Government.

The comments you quoted today from the 2002 Auditor General pertain to the Liberal’s first deficit budget as a result of fulfilling the promised tax cuts they successfully campaigned on. Again this is not news either; this is a well known fact. Do you not understand the difference between debt and a deficit?

I should also add that under the NDP BC’s taxes steadily increased to become amongst the highest in Canada; today BC taxes are now the lowest for low income British Columbians and the second lowest to Alberta for wealthy taxpayers. If having low taxes is so wrong (and it was the BC Liberals and not the NDP who lowered taxes) why is the NDP not promising to raise taxes like they did last time they were elected ?
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