More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

BC's provincial election and STV referendum takes place Tuesday May 12th.
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damngrumpy
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by damngrumpy »

There are a number of things that bother me going into the election, first I am shocked at how much people don't know. I am really shocked at how simplistic people are. They talk about parties
with self serving agenda's like this is something new. It is how democracy works, the party witht the ability to get a majority puts forth its agenda of course it will be balanced to the leanings of
whatever party is elected.
Then comes the bond question. Well people, this province was built on bonds. The Social Credit
Party issued more bonds than any other group. The Ferries, BC Rail, the Damns and some roads I believe were built with bond issues. Two commercials I remember as a kid on radio, the Gold Leaf Cigarette ads and the governments Buy BC Bonds.
At least if we had a bond issue or two we would be investing in our own future in this Province.
For me it depends on what they are using the bond issue for.
It seems to me, a lot more thought has to go into how people are going to vote, and their decision
has to be on real information about the facts and how things actually work. Somehow I don't think
that is going to happen.
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Merry
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Merry »

Al Czervic wrote:I so do not mean to sound insulting. It’s just that I find your posts all have a central theme that if the world were perfect thinks could work they way you often think they should.

However in the real world; rightly or wrongly; things work much differently and government policy needs to be reflective of that and I submit in many cases it is. It’s like the issue of raw long exports; in an ideal world we would not have raw long exports. However we have raw log exports for a variety of reasons. This is why no government tin the history of BC has gone and banned them.

I am digressing here I just find that those who live in the “bubble” of the perfect dream world tend to be NDP’ers…this is why I suggest you vote for the NDP. I don’t mean that to sound offensive it is just my perspetive.


I believe it is important for those who lead our country to have a vision of what COULD be achieved, not just ideas on how to improve what IS currently being achieved. The scenario you describe as being realistic is precisely what's wrong with this country right now, we no longer have any leaders with a vision of what just might be possible. And without such a vision we have no hope for a brighter future, just more of the same ad nauseum. The world's greatest leaders have all been people with a vision for the future; a vision that they were able to impart to the masses who supported them. I long for another such leader to emerge, and I firmly believe (hope) that one day he/she will.
"In a world swathed in political correctness, the voting booth remains the final sanctuary where the people are free to speak" - Clifford Orwin
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Merry
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Merry »

damngrumpy wrote:There are a number of things that bother me going into the election, first I am shocked at how much people don't know. I am really shocked at how simplistic people are. They talk about parties
with self serving agenda's like this is something new. It is how democracy works, the party witht the ability to get a majority puts forth its agenda of course it will be balanced to the leanings of
whatever party is elected.

Each party has a different approach to the way they think we should be governed and obviously, if elected, their policies will reflect that approach. They are just different paths to reach a common goal of good government. But that's not what I think of when someone refers to parties having self serving agendas. To me it is self serving when they adopt policies that blatantly favour special interest groups that are the same groups that supply a lot of party funding. In the case of the NDP this could be the unions, and in the case of the Campbell Liberals it is certain business interests. Both are special interest groups, and both have a tendency to slough up to the trough whenever their favoured party is in power.
"In a world swathed in political correctness, the voting booth remains the final sanctuary where the people are free to speak" - Clifford Orwin
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by fluffy »

Nicklan wrote:Gordo has got to GO !


Trouble is who to replace him with? The next crook in line? Someone else who strokes the electorate with promises of a rosey future while his own mind is focused squarely on a nice fat government pension?
How can a worker be both essential and unworthy of a living wage ?
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by NAB »

Great point Pinkie. Unfortunately, we live in a society that spends more time and effort on trying to capitalize on "what is" in the here and now, rather than focusing on "what could be". As a result, we get leaders who, if they wish to gain power, focus on satisfying that which the majority of the electorate lust for in the short term, rather than focusing on what is best in the long term.

It's generally referred to as short term gain for long term pain, alternatively... greed.

Nab
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Glacier »

Al Czervic wrote:I think one of the reasons why I would never last in Politics is because instead of looking for votes I would not allow people that think the way Pinkie does to vote for me.

How would you stop Pinkie from voting for you without bringing in some form of Stalinist government? :sillygrin:

With a two party system one has to form a broad coalition with people outside their political ideology. If people like Pinkie were to all vote NDP we would have NDP governments forever because many people that vote for right-wing parties hold many left wing ideals (especially in rural areas of the province). This is British Columbia after all. You can see this in places like Carboo were they would have landslide wins for the Reform Party, and the next year elect a bunch of NDPers provincially.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Homeownertoo »

Pinkie wrote:I believe it is important for those who lead our country to have a vision of what COULD be achieved, not just ideas on how to improve what IS currently being achieved. ... I long for another such leader to emerge, and I firmly believe (hope) that one day he/she will.

This "realist" (in Al's mold) also imagines a leader with vision emerging -- in this case, a leader who is neither a marxian socialist in the NDP mold nor a corporatist socialist in the BC Liberal mold, but a true conservative, respectful of civil rights and individual liberties, who looks first to the market rather than government to provide for society, and who sees value in social continuity and shared cultural values, rather than an activist government engaging in social engineering to suit some ideological agenda. Yeah, I know I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one.
“Certain things cannot be said, certain ideas cannot be expressed, certain policies cannot be proposed.” -- Leftist icon Herbert Marcuse
“Don’t let anybody tell you it’s corporations and businesses create jobs.” -- Hillary Clinton, 25/10/2014
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

Homeownertoo wrote:
Pinkie wrote:I believe it is important for those who lead our country to have a vision of what COULD be achieved, not just ideas on how to improve what IS currently being achieved. ... I long for another such leader to emerge, and I firmly believe (hope) that one day he/she will.

This "realist" (in Al's mold) also imagines a leader with vision emerging -- in this case, a leader who is neither a marxian socialist in the NDP mold nor a corporatist socialist in the BC Liberal mold, but a true conservative, respectful of civil rights and individual liberties, who looks first to the market rather than government to provide for society, and who sees value in social continuity and shared cultural values, rather than an activist government engaging in social engineering to suit some ideological agenda. Yeah, I know I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one.


Excuse me Marsist is communist, While I am a Socialist I am not a Communist and don't like being compaired to them either.
The people of Canada for the most part are socialist as I am, I believe in Public Education from the first day to you feel you want to stop educating your self, as the tax payer is already footing the bill for our education system to the tone of 95% including the colleages, I believe so long as we are paying sales taxes, as they where brought in to fund the public medical system that the money should be spent on the system it was intended for all of it.I believe we need honnest people in government that are not there just to stuff their own pockets as the Liberals are doing, I aslo believe that after the election is heald and the government has been elected, not only should the loser be leaving office but all deputy Ministers and department heads as well should be shown the door, then the elected government will run the province agian like when we did that before, it never should have been stopped. :sunshine:
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by logicalview »

Nicklan wrote: I aslo believe that after the election is heald and the government has been elected, not only should the loser be leaving office but all deputy Ministers and department heads as well should be shown the door, then the elected government will run the province agian like when we did that before, it never should have been stopped


That's what happens every election.
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Homeownertoo
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Homeownertoo »

Pinkie wrote:Each party has a different approach to the way they think we should be governed and obviously, if elected, their policies will reflect that approach. They are just different paths to reach a common goal of good government. But that's not what I think of when someone refers to parties having self serving agendas. To me it is self serving when they adopt policies that blatantly favour special interest groups that are the same groups that supply a lot of party funding. In the case of the NDP this could be the unions, and in the case of the Campbell Liberals it is certain business interests. Both are special interest groups, and both have a tendency to slough up to the trough whenever their favoured party is in power.

You articulated well the distinction between party agendas and "self-serving" agendas, a distinction that is often lost in political discussions. It is a little naive, however, to say that different parties' policies "are just different paths to reach a common goal of good government." Different parties define "good government" so differently that it becomes meaningless to talk of a common goal. I was reading over the Green party of BC's platform last night, and shuddered (repeatedly) to think where their "path" would lead this province if they got their hands on power, perhaps via the single transferrable vote, which the party strongly endorses. Their concept of good government is so at odds with mine, I see little common ground beyond a general support for democracy.
“Certain things cannot be said, certain ideas cannot be expressed, certain policies cannot be proposed.” -- Leftist icon Herbert Marcuse
“Don’t let anybody tell you it’s corporations and businesses create jobs.” -- Hillary Clinton, 25/10/2014
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Homeownertoo »

Nicklan wrote:
Homeownertoo wrote:
Pinkie wrote:I believe it is important for those who lead our country to have a vision of what COULD be achieved, not just ideas on how to improve what IS currently being achieved. ... I long for another such leader to emerge, and I firmly believe (hope) that one day he/she will.

This "realist" (in Al's mold) also imagines a leader with vision emerging -- in this case, a leader who is neither a marxian socialist in the NDP mold nor a corporatist socialist in the BC Liberal mold, but a true conservative, respectful of civil rights and individual liberties, who looks first to the market rather than government to provide for society, and who sees value in social continuity and shared cultural values, rather than an activist government engaging in social engineering to suit some ideological agenda. Yeah, I know I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one.


Excuse me Marsist is communist, While I am a Socialist I am not a Communist and don't like being compaired to them either.
The people of Canada for the most part are socialist as I am, I believe in Public Education from the first day to you feel you want to stop educating your self, as the tax payer is already footing the bill for our education system to the tone of 95% including the colleages, I believe so long as we are paying sales taxes, as they where brought in to fund the public medical system that the money should be spent on the system it was intended for all of it.I believe we need honnest people in government that are not there just to stuff their own pockets as the Liberals are doing, I aslo believe that after the election is heald and the government has been elected, not only should the loser be leaving office but all deputy Ministers and department heads as well should be shown the door, then the elected government will run the province agian like when we did that before, it never should have been stopped. :sunshine:

First, Marxism is not communism. Marxism is a form of socialism based on the ideas of Marx. Communism is a form of Marxism that first emerged from the Paris Commune of the late 19th century. It embraces totalitarianism and came to be strongly identified with the Bolshevik revolution and the Soviet state. I don't know what you are, but accept your own rejection of communism. BTW, it is likely that all socialist states tend toward totalitarianism, including those that do not explicitly embrace it, because that is the inevitable result of the concentration of economic and social power in one entity, the government. That tendency is moderated in democracies that respect property rights, but no socialist state is ever as free as a democracy with a strong private sector.

I am sad to say I agree that the people of Canada are, for the most part, socialist, either in the Marxist form followed by the NDP and Green party, or the corporatist form followed by Liberal parties generally and sometimes by the Conservatives. Harper and Mike Harris are not socialists, for example, but I suspect Joe Clark would have little trouble accommodating himself to socialism.
“Certain things cannot be said, certain ideas cannot be expressed, certain policies cannot be proposed.” -- Leftist icon Herbert Marcuse
“Don’t let anybody tell you it’s corporations and businesses create jobs.” -- Hillary Clinton, 25/10/2014
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Glacier »

A communist is a socialist in a hurry.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

logicalview wrote:
Nicklan wrote: I aslo believe that after the election is heald and the government has been elected, not only should the loser be leaving office but all deputy Ministers and department heads as well should be shown the door, then the elected government will run the province agian like when we did that before, it never should have been stopped


That's what happens every election.


I wish it it,
But I am afraid it does not.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

Homeownertoo wrote:
Nicklan wrote:
Homeownertoo wrote:
Pinkie wrote:I believe it is important for those who lead our country to have a vision of what COULD be achieved, not just ideas on how to improve what IS currently being achieved. ... I long for another such leader to emerge, and I firmly believe (hope) that one day he/she will.

This "realist" (in Al's mold) also imagines a leader with vision emerging -- in this case, a leader who is neither a marxian socialist in the NDP mold nor a corporatist socialist in the BC Liberal mold, but a true conservative, respectful of civil rights and individual liberties, who looks first to the market rather than government to provide for society, and who sees value in social continuity and shared cultural values, rather than an activist government engaging in social engineering to suit some ideological agenda. Yeah, I know I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one.


Excuse me Marsist is communist, While I am a Socialist I am not a Communist and don't like being compaired to them either.
The people of Canada for the most part are socialist as I am, I believe in Public Education from the first day to you feel you want to stop educating your self, as the tax payer is already footing the bill for our education system to the tone of 95% including the colleages, I believe so long as we are paying sales taxes, as they where brought in to fund the public medical system that the money should be spent on the system it was intended for all of it.I believe we need honnest people in government that are not there just to stuff their own pockets as the Liberals are doing, I aslo believe that after the election is heald and the government has been elected, not only should the loser be leaving office but all deputy Ministers and department heads as well should be shown the door, then the elected government will run the province agian like when we did that before, it never should have been stopped. :sunshine:

First, Marxism is not communism. Marxism is a form of socialism based on the ideas of Marx. Communism is a form of Marxism that first emerged from the Paris Commune of the late 19th century. It embraces totalitarianism and came to be strongly identified with the Bolshevik revolution and the Soviet state. I don't know what you are, but accept your own rejection of communism. BTW, it is likely that all socialist states tend toward totalitarianism, including those that do not explicitly embrace it, because that is the inevitable result of the concentration of economic and social power in one entity, the government. That tendency is moderated in democracies that respect property rights, but no socialist state is ever as free as a democracy with a strong private sector.

I am sad to say I agree that the people of Canada are, for the most part, socialist, either in the Marxist form followed by the NDP and Green party, or the corporatist form followed by Liberal parties generally and sometimes by the Conservatives. Harper and Mike Harris are not socialists, for example, but I suspect Joe Clark would have little trouble accommodating himself to socialism.

Marxist as in Caral Marx is Communisim, where the state owns everything and the person owns nothing. That is not Socialist as We Canadians are not Communists, Public Medical, Public Education, Public Transportation and Highways, Public Justice System these are scocialist as in Public. We beleve that we are each able to won any business or any home or anyfarm that you can fund this socialist also, and so is Putting Canada and Canadians First not last as Gordo and his Gang pride themselfs in doing. Look at Canadian National the only thing Canadian about it anymore is the name as they are now controlled by the Americans not Canada or Canadians even though it was Canada and Canadians that paid every cent to build it in the first place, the same with CP or what is left of CP as the railroad is all that is left of CP. :nyah:
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Merry »

Homeownertoo wrote: Different parties define "good government" so differently that it becomes meaningless to talk of a common goal.

All parties DO share a common goal of "good government", the fact that they define that term differently is what leads to most of the policy differences between them. But I truly believe that most, (unfortunately not all), politicians really do want what they believe is best for our country. So it is in that sense all politicians want the same thing, but if it makes you happier I'll substitute the word "similar" for the word "common".
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