More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

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Al Czervic
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Al Czervic »

Nabcom wrote:
Pinkie wrote:I don't suppose there's any chance we'll get to hear the outcome of this investigation before the next election?


ROFL :dyinglaughing:

...and Gordo sold BC Gas? I didn't know that ;-)

As for the ferries, these new ones seem to me a much better bargain, more functional and effective to boot, than the ones the last NDP Government and the local shipbuilding industry came up with.

But I too would like more info on where the money from the sale of BC Rail supposedly "went".

Nab


And the best part of these new ferries is that actually have a warranty that for a change is NOT financed by BC taxpayers
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

Nabcom wrote:
Pinkie wrote:I don't suppose there's any chance we'll get to hear the outcome of this investigation before the next election?


ROFL :dyinglaughing:

...and Gordo sold BC Gas? I didn't know that ;-)

As for the ferries, these new ones seem to me a much better bargain, more functional and effective to boot, than the ones the last NDP Government and the local shipbuilding industry came up with.

But I too would like more info on where the money from the sale of BC Rail supposedly "went".

Nab

Actully there is nothing wrong with the fast cats
They are using one of them for the 2010 game even
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

Al Czervic wrote:
Nabcom wrote:
Pinkie wrote:I don't suppose there's any chance we'll get to hear the outcome of this investigation before the next election?


ROFL :dyinglaughing:

...and Gordo sold BC Gas? I didn't know that ;-)

As for the ferries, these new ones seem to me a much better bargain, more functional and effective to boot, than the ones the last NDP Government and the local shipbuilding industry came up with.

But I too would like more info on where the money from the sale of BC Rail supposedly "went".

Nab


And the best part of these new ferries is that actually have a warranty that for a change is NOT financed by BC taxpayers

At 250 million each they should run and repair themselfs
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fluffy
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by fluffy »

Nicklan wrote:Actully there is nothing wrong with the fast cats


Umm, if that were true they would be in service as originally intended. The fast cats were a poorly researched dream, intended more to breathe life into a dying ship-building industry that to actually produce an efficient addition to the BC Ferries fleet. The cost to build them was more than double what was projected, their fuel consumption was extremely high, their aluminum hulls were susceptible to damage from floating debris in their path, they produced a large wake capable of damaging craft moored on shore, and the attention to balancing required for the catamaran hull extended loading times considerably. They were intended to be faster than the regular ferries which was to make up for their smaller car/passenger capacity, but the speed reductions and course changes needed to keep the wake under control, the longer loading times, and running the engines at less than peak efficiency to keep fuel consumption down meant that they actually took longer than the regular craft. The project was a failure.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Al Czervic »

flüffy wrote:
Nicklan wrote:Actully there is nothing wrong with the fast cats


Umm, if that were true they would be in service as originally intended. The fast cats were a poorly researched dream, intended more to breathe life into a dying ship-building industry that to actually produce an efficient addition to the BC Ferries fleet. The cost to build them was more than double what was projected, their fuel consumption was extremely high, their aluminum hulls were susceptible to damage from floating debris in their path, they produced a large wake capable of damaging craft moored on shore, and the attention to balancing required for the catamaran hull extended loading times considerably. They were intended to be faster than the regular ferries which was to make up for their smaller car/passenger capacity, but the speed reductions and course changes needed to keep the wake under control, the longer loading times, and running the engines at less than peak efficiency to keep fuel consumption down meant that they actually took longer than the regular craft. The project was a failure.


Don’t forget the numerous breakdowns as a result of various sea debris getting sucked into the cooling intakes causing the need to shut the engines down (and the vessels stopped) until the intakes get could get cleared…..
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by NAB »

Nicklan wrote:Actully there is nothing wrong with the fast cats
They are using one of them for the 2010 game even


Oh cummon Nicklan, give yer head a shake and join the real world man! If you support the "Fast Cats" approach you have absolutely no credibility left!

Nab
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

Nabcom wrote:
Nicklan wrote:Actully there is nothing wrong with the fast cats
They are using one of them for the 2010 game even


Oh cummon Nicklan, give yer head a shake and join the real world man! If you support the "Fast Cats" approach you have absolutely no credibility left!

Nab

I never said I supported the fast cats approach as you put it, I said I have inspected those ships and there is nothing wrong with them infact they are using one of them for the 2010 games. I also said that selling them and not using them was a complete polical stunt for polical gain at a total cost near one billion dollars. And for no reason other then to falsely make the NDP look bad, Thank you angian for robbing British Columbians Gordo.

The sooner Gordo and his lieing Liberals are gone the better !
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Nicklan »

Al Czervic wrote:
flüffy wrote:
Nicklan wrote:Actully there is nothing wrong with the fast cats


Umm, if that were true they would be in service as originally intended. The fast cats were a poorly researched dream, intended more to breathe life into a dying ship-building industry that to actually produce an efficient addition to the BC Ferries fleet. The cost to build them was more than double what was projected, their fuel consumption was extremely high, their aluminum hulls were susceptible to damage from floating debris in their path, they produced a large wake capable of damaging craft moored on shore, and the attention to balancing required for the catamaran hull extended loading times considerably. They were intended to be faster than the regular ferries which was to make up for their smaller car/passenger capacity, but the speed reductions and course changes needed to keep the wake under control, the longer loading times, and running the engines at less than peak efficiency to keep fuel consumption down meant that they actually took longer than the regular craft. The project was a failure.


Don’t forget the numerous breakdowns as a result of various sea debris getting sucked into the cooling intakes causing the need to shut the engines down (and the vessels stopped) until the intakes get could get cleared…..


The fast cats have been running on the east coast now for nearly 20 years every day, usually grates can be used to stop logs or large objects from being sucked in. :nyah:
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Al Czervic »

Nicklan wrote:
Nabcom wrote:
Nicklan wrote:Actully there is nothing wrong with the fast cats
They are using one of them for the 2010 game even


Oh cummon Nicklan, give yer head a shake and join the real world man! If you support the "Fast Cats" approach you have absolutely no credibility left!

Nab

I never said I supported the fast cats approach as you put it, I said I have inspected those ships and there is nothing wrong with them infact they are using one of them for the 2010 games. I also said that selling them and not using them was a complete polical stunt for polical gain at a total cost near one billion dollars. And for no reason other then to falsely make the NDP look bad, Thank you angian for robbing British Columbians Gordo.

The sooner Gordo and his lieing Liberals are gone the better !


Well Nicklan,

Ritchie Bros. auctioneers had those Fast Cat’s for sale and yes; even you could have bid on them if they were such a smoking deal. Why did you not bid ? Heck; $ 40 million should be chump change for a man of your stature. By the way; talk to Kyle at the Washington Marine Group if you are interested in making an offer; I know for a fact he will be all ears.

You can show BC just what a magician you truly are. Maybe you should run for Premier next. Maybe even PM.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by fluffy »

I think that there were some purely political moves at both ends of the "Fast Cat Fiasco" as it has become known. The Clark NPDs were focused more on reviving an ailing shipbuilding industry than anything else, and used BC Ferries as a pawn to achieve that goal. Tourism was high in the nineties, and lengthy delays when using the ferry system were not uncommon. They peddled the fast cat idea by saying that a lower capacity ship with more frequent sailings would improve the situation, however the suitability of that particular design to BC ferry routes was grossly over-estimated. The wake produced when they were operated at high speeds were potentially damaging to vessels moored nearby, forcing course changes and/or speed reductions. Operating speed had to be reduced to bring the exorbitant fuel consumption down. Loading & unloading took longer due to need to keep the twin hulled craft in balance. Add all these together and the quicker crossing times that were promised quickly evaporated, along with any economic advantages the fast cats would have had over the existing fleet.

Now, as I understand it, the three ships were sold for scrap at auction for something in the neighbourhood of $19 million, and sold to a bidder who had previously offered $60 million for the same three ships. Tell me someone didn't drop the ball there. Of course, like Nicklan says, it was pretty easy for the new Liberal government to spin that one off as just another chapter to a big NDP failure. Truth be told this was not so much an NDP/Liberal head-to-head as it was just another example of provincial government bungling and hidden agendas at the taxpayers' expense.

Liberals vs. NDPs ? Yeah right. The latin term is "New Fascia, Same Old Ganglia".
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Al Czervic »

flüffy wrote:I think that there were some purely political moves at both ends of the "Fast Cat Fiasco" as it has become known. The Clark NPDs were focused more on reviving an ailing shipbuilding industry than anything else, and used BC Ferries as a pawn to achieve that goal. Tourism was high in the nineties, and lengthy delays when using the ferry system were not uncommon. They peddled the fast cat idea by saying that a lower capacity ship with more frequent sailings would improve the situation, however the suitability of that particular design to BC ferry routes was grossly over-estimated. The wake produced when they were operated at high speeds were potentially damaging to vessels moored nearby, forcing course changes and/or speed reductions. Operating speed had to be reduced to bring the exorbitant fuel consumption down. Loading & unloading took longer due to need to keep the twin hulled craft in balance. Add all these together and the quicker crossing times that were promised quickly evaporated, along with any economic advantages the fast cats would have had over the existing fleet.

Now, as I understand it, the three ships were sold for scrap at auction for something in the neighbourhood of $19 million, and sold to a bidder who had previously offered $60 million for the same three ships. Tell me someone didn't drop the ball there. Of course, like Nicklan says, it was pretty easy for the new Liberal government to spin that one off as just another chapter to a big NDP failure. Truth be told this was not so much an NDP/Liberal head-to-head as it was just another example of provincial government bungling and hidden agendas at the taxpayers' expense.

Liberals vs. NDPs ? Yeah right. The latin term is "New Fascia, Same Old Ganglia".


Ritchie Bros. is an internationally respected auction firm who marketed the Fast Cats worldwide. The Fast Cats sold via an open auction for what the market decided would be their true value. Anyone who suggests the lack of higher bids was politically motivated simply has no clue about how auctions work.

Fact is even today with all of the resources of the Washington Marine Group they still cannot find a use for the Fast Cat ferries. They were a dismal failure. I don’t believe Glen Clark meant or intended for them to fail. I don’t believe any politician sets out to intentionally fail; even the NDP. Glen Clark truly believed he could create a new aluminum constructed fast ferry industry in BC.

Where he ultimately went wrong was trying to do it all through government using only Union based labour. That was a recipe for disaster.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by fluffy »

The $60 million offer was made before the auction, by the same company, Washington marine Group, that ultimately purchased them at the auction for about $19 million. There was no suggestion of impropriety on my part, obviously the government thought they could do better than $60 million and it just didn't turn out that way. This one has to lay squarely in the lap of Campbell's Liberals, who attempted to spin it to make it look like an NDP failure.

Geez, is it any wonder that one gets a little cynical about our provincial government no matter what hat they are wearing?
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Al Czervic »

flüffy wrote:The $60 million offer was made before the auction, by the same company, Washington marine Group, that ultimately purchased them at the auction for about $19 million. There was no suggestion of impropriety on my part, obviously the government thought they could do better than $60 million and it just didn't turn out that way. This one has to lay squarely in the lap of Campbell's Liberals, who attempted to spin it to make it look like an NDP failure.

Geez, is it any wonder that one gets a little cynical about our provincial government no matter what hat they are wearing?


Did it ever occur to you that maybe they thought they could get more money in the open auction format? Any time you make a decision to place an item up for auction you take some risk. Had the ferries sold for $ 80 million at the auction than it would have looked like a wise choice to have sold them via that route.

I am only pointing out that there is always uncertainty in the auction process and there are no crystal balls as you are alleging. Have you ever gone to an auction before ? More so a Ritchie Bros. auction ? I suggest if you had, you might have a different point of view.

Besides even at $ 20 Million the Washington Marine Group has never made a dime on those ferries. When you consider the interest costs on $ 20 million; plus all of the maintenance and storage charges this has been a huge loss for WMG group as well.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Merry »

Considering the fairly limited market in North America for ferries such as this, I have to wonder why the government thought they could get a higher price at auction? It sounds like a poorly thought out decision to me.
My other question is, if these ferries have been used successfully on the east coast, why could they not have been used successfully here? Just wondering.
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Re: More NDP Lunacy. $ 10 Billion on Bonds?

Post by Al Czervic »

Pinkie wrote:My other question is, if these ferries have been used successfully on the east coast, why could they not have been used successfully here? Just wondering.


That is a really good question. Maybe Nicklan could answer that one. Also would be interesting to learn where on the 'East Coast these use these types of ferries.
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