Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

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butcher99
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

Post by butcher99 »

Urbane wrote:Butcher, I'd say the US is in deep economic trouble not because of its free enterprise tendencies but because of its debt. 85% of that debt is due to the entitlement programs (Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid). And look at Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain (to name a few) that have been in serious economic trouble because of their costly entitlement programs. I'm not in favour of an unfettered capitalist system that has no safety net but we need to find the right balance. It seems to me we're on the right track now and perhaps your assertion that the Conservatives are just lucky indicates that you too think we're on the right track. Whether or not the Conservatives deliberately brought us on to the right track or stumbled on to the right track can be argued but I'm just happy we're on that track.



Check your facts. About 50% of the US budget is consumed by the big 3. Not 85%. You have not even mentioned the military budget which in the US is still growing. The things being cut in the US are piddly compared to those items.

No I did not mention Portugal or Ireland or Greece but then there are just as many right wing countries who are in bad states as well.
Ireland does not really fit the mold of "socialist" as it is being called incorrectly in these discussions They are more center of the road although they do have more left leaning social programs than the US would have economically they are more centre or slightly right wing. After all, they did cut taxes to corporations which brought in an age of prosperity which left as soon as someone undercut their tax cuts. Now they have no industry and no taxes.


BTW, would you mind quoting me on where I said the conservatives were "just lucky". I do not recall nor can I find it. I went back 3 pages and could find no posts by me saying luck.
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

Post by butcher99 »

The Green Barbarian wrote:
butcher99 wrote:
The Green Barbarian wrote:well there is no better policy to deflate the value of the Canadian dollar internationally then electing the NDP as our next government. I'd be trading in my Cdn dollars for Mexican pesos as the peso at least would have some value! :dyinglaughing:



That is a pretty blanket statement with no grounds.

Why do you think that would happen?


Oh boy - take an economics class first off. But secondly - have a look at the devaluation of the Euro and the US dollar since 2008. It is no coincidence that gold hit yet another record price today. Then look at how much money the EU and the US is printing right now just to stay above water with their massive spending and their interest payments they have to make on all of their debt. THEN look at Layton's current platform and the BILLIONS of dollars we would have to print to meet even half of his absurd promises. We would be behind the 8 ball in a year or less just like the Americans and the Europeans if Layton had control of the public purse. When you can't borrow anymore you print money, which causes inflation, which causes devaluation of your currency. It's basic supply and demand, something left-wing types just never can grasp, and it really really is exasperating.


So the fact that the US is printing huge sums of money and their dollar as well as the Euro are tanking have what to do with the NDP? I don't recall Layton saying he would crank up the presses. In fact, he put forth a platform that would bring in more money without cranking up the presses. You just did not read it.

There is exactly zero logic in your statement. Lets see if I follow this. The US and Euorpe are printing lots of money, so Layton will print lots of money so the Canadian Dollar will get back to where it historically was. Which will make our exports cheaper and imports more expensive and this will kill the Canadian economy.

First off i do not see any logical progression from the US and Europe to Layton, but second, isn't the lower canadian dollar what the Conservatives wanted all along?


So mike and Ike go to university. Mike is trying to figure out his classes and he goes to a professor who tells him he should take Logic. Mike says what is Logic. The prof says, do you have a tractor. Mike says yes, Prof says, since you have a tractor I can assume you have a field. Yes says mike. Well since you have a field you probably have a house. Yes says mike. Well says the prof. you have a house you probably have a wife. Yes, says mike. Well since you have a wife, you probably have kids. Yes says Mike. Well the prof says, that is logic.

So Mike goes to Ike. You should take this logic course Ike, says Mike. It is really interesting.
Oh says Ike, what is logic.
Do you have a tractor says Mike,
No says Ike.
You are gay says Mike.

I like this version much better than the bastardized one posted earlier
butcher99
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

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Urbane wrote:Butcher, I'd say the US is in deep economic trouble not because of its free enterprise tendencies but because of its debt. 85% of that debt is due to the entitlement programs (Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid). And look at Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain (to name a few) that have been in serious economic trouble because of their costly entitlement programs. I'm not in favour of an unfettered capitalist system that has no safety net but we need to find the right balance. It seems to me we're on the right track now and perhaps your assertion that the Conservatives are just lucky indicates that you too think we're on the right track. Whether or not the Conservatives deliberately brought us on to the right track or stumbled on to the right track can be argued but I'm just happy we're on that track.



Is the US in serious debt trouble or a serious cash flow problem because they cut their taxes so much?

SS in the US is solvent for many many years. I believe it is 30 but cannot recall for sure. Minor changes to it would make it work. They have no means test. So the rich get the same SS that everyone else gets. Medicare and medicaid are in trouble because the US has not public healthcare to ease the burden.

If the US were to rescind all of the Bush tax cuts and defund the now 3 wars they have going and set the money they give the military back to 2002 levels the US would once again be into a surplus cash flow.
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Urbane
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

Post by Urbane »

    butcher99 wrote:
    Urbane wrote:Butcher, I'd say the US is in deep economic trouble not because of its free enterprise tendencies but because of its debt. 85% of that debt is due to the entitlement programs (Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid). And look at Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain (to name a few) that have been in serious economic trouble because of their costly entitlement programs. I'm not in favour of an unfettered capitalist system that has no safety net but we need to find the right balance. It seems to me we're on the right track now and perhaps your assertion that the Conservatives are just lucky indicates that you too think we're on the right track. Whether or not the Conservatives deliberately brought us on to the right track or stumbled on to the right track can be argued but I'm just happy we're on that track.



    Is the US in serious debt trouble or a serious cash flow problem because they cut their taxes so much?

    SS in the US is solvent for many many years. I believe it is 30 but cannot recall for sure. Minor changes to it would make it work. They have no means test. So the rich get the same SS that everyone else gets. Medicare and medicaid are in trouble because the US has not public healthcare to ease the burden.

    If the US were to rescind all of the Bush tax cuts and defund the now 3 wars they have going and set the money they give the military back to 2002 levels the US would once again be into a surplus cash flow.

Cutting taxes while simultaneously fighting 2-3 wars makes no sense to me either so we agree on that. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, defence, and interest on the debt currently account for 85% of the federal budget. I left out defence and interest in my previous post and I agree with you that the military spending down there is way over the top. Getting back to Canada it's nice to know that our debt is 1/25th of the US debt and I see that as another piece of evidence that we're on the right track or certainly more on the right track than the US.
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

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Urbane wrote:Cutting taxes while simultaneously fighting 2-3 wars makes no sense to me either so we agree on that. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, defence, and interest on the debt currently account for 85% of the federal budget. I left out defence and interest in my previous post and I agree with you that the military spending down there is way over the top. Getting back to Canada it's nice to know that our debt is 1/25th of the US debt and I see that as another piece of evidence that we're on the right track or certainly more on the right track than the US.



You said it Urbane - like it or not - and for some reason some people choose not to - Harper has Canada on the right track. Is this purely a Conservative thing? No. Harper is just continuing the good job of economic stewardship that Paul Martin started. What we definitely do NOT need is the platforms put forward by Iggyotic and Taliban Jack right now, which would destablize what is already a pretty fragile economic recovery. Right now we as a nation have to keep pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps and not caving in to fear and jump into bed with every shyster offering to hand us a bunch of candy from the candy store when the cupboards are already almost bare. B99 - you can spin it any way you want but we already know which way you lean politically. It's obvious you've decided to accept a version of reality that suits your prism of how you see the world, and that's cool, but you are wasting your breath (and time typing) trying to convince anyone else that your views represent "reality", as they just don't. When you typed "the NDP will come back and save Canada again" I hope you had a smile on your face as that line has brought me no end of laughs. Thanks for that.
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

Post by I Think »

Canadians should elect politicians who are not in contempt of Parliament,
who do not steal from a fund in order to spend on local improvements to buy votes in their riding.
who do not trash our meat inspection system,
who do not lie,
who do not try to stifle the press,

Oh why bother, after all he does have a pretty __________ yet somehow vacuous face, better vote for the lies and deceit again.
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butcher99
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

Post by butcher99 »

The Green Barbarian wrote:
Urbane wrote:Cutting taxes while simultaneously fighting 2-3 wars makes no sense to me either so we agree on that. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, defence, and interest on the debt currently account for 85% of the federal budget. I left out defence and interest in my previous post and I agree with you that the military spending down there is way over the top. Getting back to Canada it's nice to know that our debt is 1/25th of the US debt and I see that as another piece of evidence that we're on the right track or certainly more on the right track than the US.



You said it Urbane - like it or not - and for some reason some people choose not to - Harper has Canada on the right track. Is this purely a Conservative thing? No. Harper is just continuing the good job of economic stewardship that Paul Martin started. What we definitely do NOT need is the platforms put forward by Iggyotic and Taliban Jack right now, which would destablize what is already a pretty fragile economic recovery. Right now we as a nation have to keep pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps and not caving in to fear and jump into bed with every shyster offering to hand us a bunch of candy from the candy store when the cupboards are already almost bare. B99 - you can spin it any way you want but we already know which way you lean politically. It's obvious you've decided to accept a version of reality that suits your prism of how you see the world, and that's cool, but you are wasting your breath (and time typing) trying to convince anyone else that your views represent "reality", as they just don't. When you typed "the NDP will come back and save Canada again" I hope you had a smile on your face as that line has brought me no end of laughs. Thanks for that.



Well, we are on the RIGHT track for sure. A track that leans to the far right and panders to business and the wealthy at the expense of everyone else.
You keep going on and on about how the NDP will break the bank in Canada yet you totally ignore the massive spending the Conservatives plan on doing to build prisons we do not need and airplanes that may never fly while cutting the taxes needed to pay for these.

What is the conservative plan to pay for these many billion dollar expenses? Have you heard how the Conservatives plan to pay for these?
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

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Nibs wrote:Canadians should elect politicians who are not in contempt of Parliament,
who do not steal from a fund in order to spend on local improvements to buy votes in their riding.
who do not trash our meat inspection system,
who do not lie,
who do not try to stifle the press,

Oh why bother, after all he does have a pretty __________ yet somehow vacuous face, better vote for the lies and deceit again.


Nibs ... if you are looking for an honest politician or political party free from any nefarious actions, if you want accountability and expect to get integrity in politics ... you are not going to find them in ANY political party or politician. To keep slamming Harper and the Conservatives is just kinda dumb - because they all are cut from the same bolt of cloth. There isn't a political party in Canada (or anywhere) that actually gives a damn about the people - or the country.

Citizens and countries don't matter any more. Everything is global now and decisions are made to jockey for global positioning - not for what the citizens of a country want - or even what is best for them.

You can vote any way you like - but your vote and the vote of any citizen is merely a token show of democracy and it means squat to anyone in Ottawa. No matter which party gets elected, the global interference will trump and your little vote will not make a whit of difference. No matter what you or any Canadian will choose, it really all boils down to the same thing - the global boys in the black cowboy hats will have their way before you get yours.
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The Green Barbarian
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

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butcher99 wrote: What is the conservative plan to pay for these many billion dollar expenses? Have you heard how the Conservatives plan to pay for these?


Harper is the only candidate for prime minister that is saying what I want to hear - namely that he plans on balancing the budget by 2014. Iggyotic and Taliban Jack COULD be saying it but they are not, as they are smart enough to know that no one would believe them anyway. I am not completely naive - I know that economies don't always go according to plan, and with our neighbour to the South (and our biggest trading partner - at least until they convince more businesses to follow the completely stupid "no oilsands oil" policy - what a joke that is) continuing down the path to financial armegeddon it isn't going to be easy. How will they pay for the new jets? I don't know - that's not my job. I just know they are going to balance the budget while doing it. Sounds good to me.
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

Post by The Green Barbarian »

butcher99 wrote:
Well, we are on the RIGHT track for sure. A track that leans to the far right and panders to business and the wealthy at the expense of everyone else.


See - when you type this kind of stuff - it is good for a laugh, and an eyeroll or two, but in the end it is just rhetoric and not really helping you with your cause. This may be "reality" to you but it's not reality to the majority of the voting public, which is why the Conservatives are ahead in the polls. THAT is reality.
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

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Speaking of being ahead in the polls, the latest Ekos poll is interesting:

Special to the National Post Apr 19, 2011

By Kathleen Harris, iPolitics.ca

The Conservatives are hitting the home stretch with a 12-point lead over the Liberals, while the NDP enjoys a swell of national support, a new Ekos-iPolitics poll shows.

Pollster Frank Graves said the NDP is the only party that has improved its prospects during the campaign.

The survey of 2,400 Canadians finds 37.4% would vote Conservative, 24.9% Liberal, and 20% NDP if an election were held today. Another 8.4% plan to vote for the Green Party and 7.8 % for the Bloc Quebecois.

“Clearly the NDP surge is not some kind of ephemeral oscillation. It’s now clear from our poll and others that they’ve had a steady climb,” Mr. Graves said. “They started out the campaign at 14 points, they’re now at 20. That’s a big jump.”

But the jump may not convert into significant seat gains for the NDP, Mr. Graves predicted, since much of their strength is in Quebec and there will be a lot of tight races.

While the Conservatives are holding a comfortable lead, the Liberals are losing ground in Ontario and Quebec and “falling out of the race” in British Columbia.

“They’re basically back below or right around where they were in the last election, so that’s not good,” Mr. Graves said.

With two weeks left to go before the May 2 vote, Mr. Graves said most voters are firming up their decision and the Conservative lead may reflect the ballot question tilting in their favour.

“Are you ready to rock the boat and take a chance, things aren’t too bad, why take a chance, versus I’m really upset with the government, it’s time to change management,” he said. “If that persists over the next few days, I think that’s going to be pretty conclusive.”

Focusing on absolutely decided voters, the breakdown reveals a probable seat counts that is a “clone” to the last makeup of the House of Commons.

The poll surveyed 2,246 adult Canadians between April 15 and April 17, 2011. Results are considered accurate plus or minus 2.1 per cent, 19 times out of 20.
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

Post by Merry »

Regrettably Gramma is right when she says that global influences have a far greater impact on our economy than anything our own government may do. However, it is how our government reacts to those global influences that may make the difference. At least, I hope that's the case, because I'd hate to think we had no control whatsoever over our own economic future. I like to think that our government has at least SOME control in that area.

So if we allow for the fact that we do have the power to influence the direction our country takes, albeit in a somewhat limited way, we then have to decide not only what direction we want to go, but also who we want to lead us there. And a party that has shown itself to be arrogant, with a blatant disregard for the rules and a noticable lack of respect for their fellow parliamentarians, do not appear to be a wise choice.

And even though I am attracted to the idea of a balanced budget a few years down the road, given the uncertain global economic future these days, is it realistic for a party to make such a promise? I tend to think not. So I'm afraid I don't put too much faith in that particular party platform.

I want to see a return to honesty and integrity in politics. I want a Parliament which follows its own rules. I want a fair and just society which cares about all of its members, not just the financially successful. I want a government which listens to its constituents, but then makes decisions which are for the good of all, not just the influential few. And it seems to me that successive governments over the past several years have each got further and further away from all those high ideals. It is my hope that a strong NDP opposition will make the government more accountable, and help foster a return to the type of behaviour I've outlined above. I don't believe Iggy and the Liberals can do the job, because they're far too divided within their own ranks. Besides which, many Canadians have no faith in Iggy because they will never see him as more than an opportunist whose heart is really in the States.

I have no doubt that the Conservatives will win this election. So the question we must decide is do we want a splintered, and therefore weak opposition, or a strong one that will be in a better position to hold the government to account? I vote for the latter, which is why I'll be voting NDP.
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

Post by The Green Barbarian »

Merry wrote:I have no doubt that the Conservatives will win this election. So the question we must decide is do we want a splintered, and therefore weak opposition, or a strong one that will be in a better position to hold the government to account? I vote for the latter, which is why I'll be voting NDP.


so in other words, you are choosing a weak opposition.
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

Post by Merry »

I would rather see a strong NDP opposition, than an opposition split between the Liberals and the NDP.
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Re: Harper Government In Contempt of Parliament

Post by The Green Barbarian »

Merry wrote:I would rather see a strong NDP opposition, than an opposition split between the Liberals and the NDP.


I get what you are saying, but if opinion is what we are going after here, then in my opinion in the NDP you have a more annoying opposition, that is for sure, with the yippy little dog Layton yapping away like he always does, but this doesn't mean it is any stronger. In fact, it may cause more people to tune out than tune in.
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