Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

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Jo
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

Post by Jo »

And the above two members reported the problem when? Just askin'.

READ THE RULES.
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rekabis
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

Post by rekabis »

grammafreddy wrote:What does the Pirate Party say about what the poverty level should be set at and what will it do for people (especially seniors) who live below that level? How should the poverty level be determined?


The Pirate Party itself does not have an official statement on the poverty level.

My own opinion, however, is that such a level is very subjective. Someone who has earned a living in the upper third bracket for most of their lives would be very hard-pressed to retire on even a median retirement amount. On the other hand, my own parents are very happy with a yearly combined after-tax “income” of around $12,000. Granted, they were very prudent and have substantial savings and holdings that they could bring to bear on a financial issue (thanks to the lessons learned in the Great Depression), but that 12k number is what they actually bring in and consume. I would bet that most retirees would experience hardship to get down to that level. True, they don’t have the ability to fly to Reno every year, and they plan for “holidays” for many months in advance to ensure they have everything budgeted, but they are also very happy, active and are doing pretty well whatever they want to in their retirement (my father carves and sculpts, my mother dabbles in all forms of fine art at UBC-O, and they both brew their own alcohol under the philosophy that a well-preserved liver is a well-pickled one). And yes, their savings and holdings are meant to last for another three decades at least, seeing as they are healthy enough to have a decent chance of hitting 100.

Then you also have the issue of modern-style consumption. Taking my parents as an example, they don’t eat out more than once or twice a year, they don’t go to movies, and they don’t “consume” like many other people out there. Heck, they still have the 22" Zenith TV they purchased back in 1986! For my parents, their annual combined income is well above what they consider to be a poverty level. They don’t see any sense in splurging on fancy stuff, because a dollar wasted today is a dollar less than can be invested to produce two dollars tomorrow. Sure, a nice 55" Plasma is a sweet thing to own, but it isn’t going to appreciate at 8-15% per year, and they can still see the Zenith’s screen just fine, thank you very much. On the other hand, a well-placed dividend-producing stable of stocks or ETFs will allow my parents to buy their daily bread without having to dip into the principal. If the inflation amount is re-invested, these stocks/ETFs can feed them in perpetuity. That is why my mother, who is approaching her 70s, still works in the garden (the entire backyard produces enough produce to fill a large chest freezer and then some every year), and my father has employed a little elbow grease and self-taught know-how to keep some of his vehicles running smoothly for more than three decades. The only reason they even bothered to buy a new car twelve years ago is because my mother's carpal tunnel made driving stick too painful.

On the other hand, you have people that complain bitterly that they need their 500+ channels of cable TV on their wide-screen plasma, they need to be able to eat out at least once a week, they need that new car in order to get around, and they need to be able to buy fancy gifts for the grandchildren to spoil them. While they may be very hard-pressed to live at this level of austerity, I do consider this level to be well above the poverty line. I do also suspect that they would strongly disagree with me.

And perhaps my own experiences have coloured my opinion. Granted, there is a lot of things that I fully admit would be nice if I could own, but do I need those things? No. In the past, there have been years where I have lived on my own for less than $9,000 per year. Was it fun? Not in of itself. But I was comfortable, and every day I had a roof over my head and food in my belly. And I found that many of the material things that other people demanded were things that I could do without. I lived for quite a few years without TV, without fancy furniture, and once for about 8 months without even a proper bed (I was roughing it on the floor, Japanese-style!). And through this, I was able to educate myself and bootstrap myself out of that situation. Was it easy? Heck no. But nothing worth doing ever is.

As I said, the poverty level is very subjective. But as a significantly un-materialistic person, I suspect my own personal poverty level would be well beneath that of most other people’s. I may not be the best person to stand behind, especially if you are looking for a low-income advocate.
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rekabis
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

Post by rekabis »

Jo wrote:And the above two members reported the problem when? Just askin'.

READ THE RULES.


Well, as P.T. Barnum said, “There’s no such thing as bad publicity”. So, what the heck did those posters say that required a time-out?
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rekabis
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

Post by rekabis »

steven lloyd wrote:
rekabis wrote: I hope this helps.

It does. It is obvious your knowledge of union work environments is based on the same old and tired stereotypical rhetoric as is already all too common.

Having seen both German and North American unions up close, I stand behind my assessment about North American unions. Unions in North America are inherently hostile to Business in general, and capitalism in particular. They pretty well exist only to further their own existence at the expense of the businesses they operate in and the workers they represent. They provide a fertile ground for sloth, incompetence and indifference, and often provide very little of value to the business model itself.

And as someone who puts great stock in skills and abilities, what I find particularly galling about North American unions is the overwhelming preponderance of, and emphasis on, seniority -- no matter how well you do your job, it is the person that was hired before you that gets the perks first, no matter how incompetent they are. That no matter how hard you work or how skilled you are, it is the person hired before you that earns more and gets bigger bonuses. To me, that is just WRONG in so many ways.

Oh, and try firing a truly incompetent union worker -- most businesses, and even the government, simply don’t bother, because it would be cheaper to pay them to do nothing until retirement than go through the process of successfully dismissing them. When it has to do with industry, this can cost lives through accidents. And when it has to do with services, such as Education, it hurts entire generations of students that don’t get the quality of instruction that they need and deserve.

So am I anti-union? No. I look at Unions in Germany and see a system which works, which protects and encourages productive workers to excel, which enhances capitalism and which I would wholeheartedly advocate implementing here. But when I look at Unions in North America, I yearn for a law that would make them illegal.

steven lloyd wrote: Next you complain about people’s lack of critical thinking skills and then go on call an Arts degree useless. Do you even really know what an Arts degree is. what skills are developed in acquiring one, and how many people actually do go one to make careers with one (despite the stereotypical assumptions) ? Have you ever even been to a university ? Maybe an Arts degree would be a good place to start before entering politics. Good luck.


I have taken a BSc in Physics and Mathematics, and will be graduating this Spring with a BBA in Accounting and Management. So yes, I have a very intimate knowledge of University and what is involved in taking certain subjects (all degrees have electives that must be chosen from outside the degree in question -- I have taken my fair share of Arts courses). Due to my extensive experience in the IT sector, I have even talked to the course adviser about challenging most (if not all) of the 1st and 2nd year Bachelor of Computer Science courses at the College - which would fast-track me to getting a third Bachelors in only two years (or less, assuming I can challenge third-year courses as well).

With that said, logic prevails: How many jobs are out there for the History degrees? The English Lit degrees? The Philosophy degrees? Far fewer than what graduate every year.

And then there is personal experience: Out of my class which graduated from high school, about three-quarters went on to further education, either with a degree, diploma or technical certification of some kind (Red Seal Carpenter, Electrician, Plumber, etc.). At a recent reunion I discovered that almost no-one I talked to which had gone for an Arts degree actually made use of their degree. The rest? The vast majority of them had found work in their field at one point or another (if not making a permanent career out of it). One guy with an Engineering degree even ended up working for NASA. In particular, almost each and every former classmate that went on to get a History or English Lit or Philosophy degree (or anything like that) have not been able to employ their degree so far. In other words, their degrees are nothing more than sheepskin on the wall. And it’s been two decades since they left high school. What did they gain out of their education? A fancy title and unnecessary debt. About the only people who found work with their Arts degrees were the Fine Arts people who specialized in media production, like 3D animation or graphic design. And even then it was a hit-or-miss proposition.

Does this clear things up?
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

Post by Loed »

Before you can be taken seriously you may want to propose to your peers that the title of "Pirate Party" is rooted in misgivings and misunderstanding.

It's a terrible, terrible name, when really the people you are trying to sway will need MORE effort just to talk to them. Remember how long it took for the green party to be taken semi-seriously?

Change it, and the childish flag. You would have a better chance of enacting any amount of change.

On that note, thank you for standing up for some of the issues your party outlines. The party as it stands is the only one I can even fathom voting for.
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rekabis
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

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Loed wrote:Before you can be taken seriously you may want to propose to your peers that the title of "Pirate Party" is rooted in misgivings and misunderstanding.

It's a terrible, terrible name, when really the people you are trying to sway will need MORE effort just to talk to them. Remember how long it took for the green party to be taken semi-seriously?

Change it, and the childish flag. You would have a better chance of enacting any amount of change.


I have no real ability to make any changes, as this was set up by the founders of the party.

However, I do disagree with you on this issue. A wild, bombastic name is exactly what this party needs. Yes, it is silly, yes it does appear to be unprofessional. But I would posit that a wild and crazy name would be much more memorable and high-profile than a generic and boring name. In fact, a generic and boring name is exactly the thing which would get this party ignored and overlooked by many people.

When doing marketing, what is most important is that a socially negative image is avoided. You don’t want to start a “rape and pillage” party, simply because it has heavy negative connotations. Pirates, on the other hand, have been boosted to popular acceptance by the recent (comparatively speaking) Pirates of the Caribbean movies, which display pirates not as bloodthirsty killers but rather as lovable rouges and rapscallions (think Jack Sparrow and his crew). Factor in the “pirate” image among file sharers and youth in general, and you have imagery that will speak strongly to most people under 40. And yes, my generation (the almost-40) were among the first to encounter and embrace computers and the Internet in large numbers.

Where this “pirate party” imagery is probably NOT working is in those people with their fourth decade behind them. For them, pirates still have a negative imagery. And you know, this is OK by the pirate party, as much of our official platform doesn’t speak to them -- most people over 40 are not heavy computer users, and the proportion of their population who are true computer geeks is very slim indeed. They will have no opinion one way or another about net neutrality, patent & copyright reform or privacy on the Internet. As such, they are not the population we are targeting, just as industrialists are not the demographic that the green party is targeting.

Loed wrote:On that note, thank you for standing up for some of the issues your party outlines. The party as it stands is the only one I can even fathom voting for.


Thank you. That really does encourage me.

Oh, and BTW - the Pirate Party has now published their official 2011 platform.. When in doubt, this list takes precedence over any comments I make.
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

Post by Loed »

That's good to hear that. I mean if that is the impression the party is going for then it does make sense.

Side note; The pirate party name does get the ball rolling so to speak. I've had many ask more as soon as I mention my standing re: this current election.

You are exactly right, those with 4 decades on me gawk at it and don't understand it. Underneath most see it as a joke party, until you discuss things with them.

I just don't like the pirate moniker attached to the net use idea. Personally I feel it skews the view point of some towards net use. Pirates are "the enemy" and doing "very bad, bad things" according to media in regards to the internet. Many of your speakers are very good at by-passing this stereotype quickly if they are allowed to speak though.
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steven lloyd
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

Post by steven lloyd »

rekabis wrote: Does this clear things up?

It does – and from your response I stand by my assessment of your knowledge of union working environments (having more than thirty years experience working in non-union environments to compare with seven in a union environment) and my assessment of your knowledge of the relation between arts degrees and critical thinking. With just six years experience in a public service union environment I panelled for (competed) a Team Leader position and was selected over a person with twenty years experience. I’m not saying there aren’t union environments like you describe, but I would caution making generalized assumptions based on stereotypical thinking and would not support a politician who I suspected would formulate policy based on that strategy. I would also not support a politician who discouraged the opportunity for people to gain critical thinking skills through the completion of Arts degrees. We need more people with that ability. Cheers.
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

Post by Loed »

You don't gain critical thinking skills from an arts degree alone.

To some it's not even a skill that can be learned.

Not saying I agree with the arts degree assessment from earlier(not completely), just stating that that is not the only place one learns said skill set.

These days you will find people of my generation take an arts degree just to pass time and look like they are trying. Not everyone of course, but a goodly number of them.
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

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To Rekabis:
Be it hereby recommended that thou bucklest thy swash, and avast.
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rekabis
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

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bumblebuns wrote:To Rekabis:
Be it hereby recommended that thou bucklest thy swash, and avast.


Ummm… Thanks? (I think)
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rekabis
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

Post by rekabis »

Seems like my application was a bit too late for this election. I guess I’ll have to wait for four years to see my name on a ballot. :crocodiletears:
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

Post by The Green Barbarian »

rekabis wrote:Seems like my application was a bit too late for this election. I guess I’ll have to wait for four years to see my name on a ballot. :crocodiletears:


if it's yet another minority government, you won't have to wait that long. Not if Taliban Jack and Iggy stick around as the opposition leaders anyway.
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

Post by grammafreddy »

If its another minority government, it will become a Liberal minority with a coalition in place. There won't be another election if Harper doesn't get his majority and if he tables the same budget that shut parliament down this time. The GG will call Iggy to his house (that the Queen allows him to live in) and he'll ask him if his party is prepared to govern. Iggy will smile smugly and say "Yes" and away we gooooooooooo ... off to major spending and increased government debt land!

And then, 10, 20, 30 years from now, our kids and grandkids will ask, "*bleep* were you thinking?????? Our taxes are so high there's nothing left for us to live on and feed our families with."
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Re: Candidate for Pirate Party, Kelowna-Lake Country

Post by The Green Barbarian »

grammafreddy wrote:And then, 10, 20, 30 years from now, our kids and grandkids will ask, "*bleep* were you thinking?????? Our taxes are so high there's nothing left for us to live on and feed our families with."


Gramma - This is the same question kids my age are asking everyone who voted for Trudeau in the 1970's - *bleep* WERE YOU THINKING!!!??
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