How do you decide who to vote for?

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UnknownResident
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

Post by UnknownResident »

NAB wrote:
UnknownResident wrote:
Urbane wrote:UR, it isn't Conservative propaganda that Ignatieff and Layton are thinking about voting no confidence in the government. In fact, they just did vote no confidence and that's why we're having this election.


We're in this election because Harper did not want to work with parliament. That's the facts.


That's not facts Unknown, that's total crap. We are in this election because the Liberals, the NDP, and the Bloc want to take our country in an entirely different direction economically and socially than the conservatives do. It's just the old left wing versus right wing thinking. and we are in this election because the opposition decided the time was right to force it, because they know very well had they waited any longer the opportunity to become government, slim though it may be in any case, would be lost for a considerable number of years.

Nab


You can try to spin it however you want. You can make into a left vs right issue, but it's a real stretch. I can't find good enough reason to support any of the major parties, so this isn't some Liberal nut saying you're not telling the truth. But the "we-don't-want-an-election-but-we'll-put-up-attack-ads-eight-weeks-before-it-happens" Conservatives, definitely wanted this election.
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

Post by NAB »

UnknownResident wrote:
Urbane wrote:Here's that comment again that the Conservatives have just been lucky. Quite the way to run an election campaign against a party - "We know the country's been doing well under the Conservatives but they've just been lucky." (LOL).


Well, yeah, pretty much it. We were poised to come out of this recession fairly well before the Cons gained power.


Oh boy, you really lost me on that one Unknown. You are being sarcastic, right?

Nab
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Urbane
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

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Just to refresh the memory of some - it was a Liberal non-confidence motion that brought down the government. That motion was supported by the NDP and the Bloc despite the fact that Ken Georgetti publicly urged Layton to accept the Conservative budget. In 2008 the opposition complained bitterly about the proposal to cut out the party subsidies and Harper relented. Then the opposition said they wanted a lot more money spent in a stimulus package but didn't want to wait and instead tried to take over the government. The government was saved by the prorogation and the stimulus came. Harper now has headed the longest running minority government in Canadian history so it's inaccurate to say that he wouldn't work with other parties.
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

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NAB wrote:
UnknownResident wrote:
Urbane wrote:Here's that comment again that the Conservatives have just been lucky. Quite the way to run an election campaign against a party - "We know the country's been doing well under the Conservatives but they've just been lucky." (LOL).


Well, yeah, pretty much it. We were poised to come out of this recession fairly well before the Cons gained power.


Oh boy, you really lost me on that one Unknown. You are being sarcastic, right?

Nab


I like how when you get stumped on one subject you jump around. Fair enough though, I will entertain it. Yes I believe there have been very few (if any) strictly conservative policies that have helped us through this recession. I mean they did (supposedly) try to deregulate banks, the main reason why we are as strong as we are in this recession. And then Harper turned around and praised the regulation for helping avoid a deep recession.
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Urbane
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

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    UnknownResident wrote:Yes I believe there have been very few (if any) strictly conservative policies that have helped us through this recession. I mean they did (supposedly) try to deregulate banks, the main reason why we are as strong as we are in this recession. And then Harper turned around and praised the regulation for helping avoid a deep recession.
The bottom line for me is that what we've been doing has been working and the current government have been the guys steering the ship. Not a good time to change course as the Liberals and NDP would have us do. Another factor for me is that I'd like to see Duceppe have his wings clipped since he has far too much say with this current set up and will be even more powerful if a Liberal minority/coalition takes over. There are no perfect parties here and there are no perfect party leaders. I've voted Conservative once before in my life I believe and this time will be the second. I genuinely look forward to the Liberal Party getting its act together so I can return someday to voting for them again.
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

Post by NAB »

UnknownResident wrote:
NAB wrote:
UnknownResident wrote:
Urbane wrote:Here's that comment again that the Conservatives have just been lucky. Quite the way to run an election campaign against a party - "We know the country's been doing well under the Conservatives but they've just been lucky." (LOL).


Well, yeah, pretty much it. We were poised to come out of this recession fairly well before the Cons gained power.


Oh boy, you really lost me on that one Unknown. You are being sarcastic, right?

Nab


I like how when you get stumped on one subject you jump around. Fair enough though, I will entertain it. Yes I believe there have been very few (if any) strictly conservative policies that have helped us through this recession. I mean they did (supposedly) try to deregulate banks, the main reason why we are as strong as we are in this recession. And then Harper turned around and praised the regulation for helping avoid a deep recession.


Aww. cummon, don't accuse me of "jumping around" Here's what you said, and what I addressed....

"Well, yeah, pretty much it. We were poised to come out of this recession fairly well before the Cons gained power."

That's total nonsense IMO. When the Conservatives came to power no one had a clue a global economic meltdown not seen since the dirty thirties was on the horizon. And the phony surplus that the Martin Liberals like to brag about was achieved partially by cutting health care support to the provinces, among other cuts in transfers and downloading.

Nab
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

Post by steven lloyd »

Urbane wrote: There are no perfect parties here and there are no perfect party leaders. I've voted Conservative once before in my life I believe and this time will be the second. I genuinely look forward to the Liberal Party getting its act together so I can return someday to voting for them again.

Exactly. There are many people who might normally vot Liberal, or even NDP, who are voting Conservative this time around simply because of the shenanigans being perpetrated on us and proposed by Iggy and Layton. I hope the NDP form a strong opposition under a Conservative mmajority (please - no coalition, or whatever Iggy wants to call it), and that the Liberals finally realize they have some serious work ahead in reinventing themselves and becoming a credible alternative again.
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

Post by UnknownResident »

Urbane wrote:
    UnknownResident wrote:Yes I believe there have been very few (if any) strictly conservative policies that have helped us through this recession. I mean they did (supposedly) try to deregulate banks, the main reason why we are as strong as we are in this recession. And then Harper turned around and praised the regulation for helping avoid a deep recession.
The bottom line for me is that what we've been doing has been working and the current government have been the guys steering the ship. Not a good time to change course as the Liberals and NDP would have us do. Another factor for me is that I'd like to see Duceppe have his wings clipped since he has far too much say with this current set up and will be even more powerful if a Liberal minority/coalition takes over. There are no perfect parties here and there are no perfect party leaders. I've voted Conservative once before in my life I believe and this time will be the second. I genuinely look forward to the Liberal Party getting its act together so I can return someday to voting for them again.



I'm with you on the Bloc, they should not be a party. But where you're giving the Cons credit, I'm saying they really haven't done a whole lot. The thing both yourself and Nab seem to be missing is pointing out some exclusively Conservatice policies that have helped us through this recession. I very much want to know why we give Harper so much credit. He has this claim to fame that he's been the reason we've done so well, and we all sit back and look at our economy and it seems to add up. But what has he done, what policies have been in place by his government that helped us through this.
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

Post by NAB »

UnknownResident wrote:
Urbane wrote:
    UnknownResident wrote:Yes I believe there have been very few (if any) strictly conservative policies that have helped us through this recession. I mean they did (supposedly) try to deregulate banks, the main reason why we are as strong as we are in this recession. And then Harper turned around and praised the regulation for helping avoid a deep recession.
The bottom line for me is that what we've been doing has been working and the current government have been the guys steering the ship. Not a good time to change course as the Liberals and NDP would have us do. Another factor for me is that I'd like to see Duceppe have his wings clipped since he has far too much say with this current set up and will be even more powerful if a Liberal minority/coalition takes over. There are no perfect parties here and there are no perfect party leaders. I've voted Conservative once before in my life I believe and this time will be the second. I genuinely look forward to the Liberal Party getting its act together so I can return someday to voting for them again.



I'm with you on the Bloc, they should not be a party. But where you're giving the Cons credit, I'm saying they really haven't done a whole lot. The thing both yourself and Nab seem to be missing is pointing out some exclusively Conservatice policies that have helped us through this recession. I very much want to know why we give Harper so much credit. He has this claim to fame that he's been the reason we've done so well, and we all sit back and look at our economy and it seems to add up. But what has he done, what policies have been in place by his government that helped us through this.


One thing I think has contributed Unknown has been their solid commitment to keeping taxes low, both for individuals and for business. I am of the view that the more money you can leave in individual's pockets to invest or spend as they see fit rather than laundering it through government, the better for the economy. They even reduced the GST as they promised they would, while the Liberals would have preferred it not be reduced. I'm not sure where the NDP stand on taxation issues however, or even on such things as I.E. contribution rates etc.

Edit to add: And of course the carefully managed stimulous spending helped a lot, although the opposition apparently would have preferred that be higher. Edit to add: And now IMO we need a good four years of stability to complete the Conservative's stimulous plan and carefully bring us back to balanced budgets without increasing our taxes.

Nab
"He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still." - Lao-Tzu
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

Post by UnknownResident »

NAB wrote:
UnknownResident wrote:
NAB wrote:
UnknownResident wrote:
Urbane wrote:Here's that comment again that the Conservatives have just been lucky. Quite the way to run an election campaign against a party - "We know the country's been doing well under the Conservatives but they've just been lucky." (LOL).


Well, yeah, pretty much it. We were poised to come out of this recession fairly well before the Cons gained power.


Oh boy, you really lost me on that one Unknown. You are being sarcastic, right?

Nab


I like how when you get stumped on one subject you jump around. Fair enough though, I will entertain it. Yes I believe there have been very few (if any) strictly conservative policies that have helped us through this recession. I mean they did (supposedly) try to deregulate banks, the main reason why we are as strong as we are in this recession. And then Harper turned around and praised the regulation for helping avoid a deep recession.


Aww. cummon, don't accuse me of "jumping around" Here's what you said, and what I addressed....

"Well, yeah, pretty much it. We were poised to come out of this recession fairly well before the Cons gained power."

That's total nonsense IMO. When the Conservatives came to power no one had a clue a global economic meltdown not seen since the dirty thirties was on the horizon. And the phony surplus that the Martin Liberals like to brag about was achieved partially by cutting health care support to the provinces, among other cuts in transfers and downloading.

Nab


Sure Nab I agree, we didn't have a clue when they took office. Here's the thing you're missing, the Conservatives admit that our economy is based on free markets and is reliant on foreign trade. Conservatives admit that, and rightly so. That being said government policies matter, but aren't central drivers for our economy. The reason we've done well through it is we have a sound banking system, we have a less leveraged corporate sector, and frankly we had some money before the recession hit.

When you actually look at it, anything Harper tried to do either did very little, or nothing at all. Remember when the Liberals tried the argument that if we give Harper credit for our recovery, he should also be blamed for our recession? It's a good point actually, of course neither is true. We're in a global economy and we largely don't have a say in what happens to our own, it wasn't our fault we're in a recession, and it's not our fault we're strong during it. When you look at the strong economies of the world today, you see there based on manufacturing, which needs commodities, so that's driven the prices up. Luckily for us we sit on a stockpile of commodities.

Another falsehood is that our economy is among the best. This hardly true. Yes among G7 countries we're doing pretty well. If you look at the unemployment numbers we were at at 7.8% in January, which is below the U.S and Italy and a couple other places. However there's a large number of countries below us, Austrailia, Germany, Luxemburg, even The Netherlands are around the same and they don't even have a government.
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

Post by NAB »

By the way, If Ignatieff can break the faith with businesses related to a gradual tax reduction program his Liberals supported, how can we trust him not to do similar with individual taxpayers if he gets to form government? We have already seen what appears to be a proposal to spend money on helping finance students who wish to go on to university, while at the same time removing certain tax deductions against income they currently enjoy. Where's the gain for students in that?

It's similar to what the Campbell Liberals pulled here in BC. They touted the increased quarterly payments low income folk would get as a result of the Carbon Tax and HST implementations, but didn't once comment on the fact that certain deductions and rebates associated with income tax filing would be eliminated. Now people are doing their income tax filing and saying "Hey, wait a minute! I'm not as far ahead at the end of the year as the government numbers when campaigning suggested I would be".

Nab
"He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still." - Lao-Tzu
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

Post by NAB »

UnknownResident wrote:
NAB wrote:
UnknownResident wrote:
NAB wrote:
UnknownResident wrote:
Urbane wrote:Here's that comment again that the Conservatives have just been lucky. Quite the way to run an election campaign against a party - "We know the country's been doing well under the Conservatives but they've just been lucky." (LOL).


Well, yeah, pretty much it. We were poised to come out of this recession fairly well before the Cons gained power.


Oh boy, you really lost me on that one Unknown. You are being sarcastic, right?

Nab


I like how when you get stumped on one subject you jump around. Fair enough though, I will entertain it. Yes I believe there have been very few (if any) strictly conservative policies that have helped us through this recession. I mean they did (supposedly) try to deregulate banks, the main reason why we are as strong as we are in this recession. And then Harper turned around and praised the regulation for helping avoid a deep recession.


Aww. cummon, don't accuse me of "jumping around" Here's what you said, and what I addressed....

"Well, yeah, pretty much it. We were poised to come out of this recession fairly well before the Cons gained power."

That's total nonsense IMO. When the Conservatives came to power no one had a clue a global economic meltdown not seen since the dirty thirties was on the horizon. And the phony surplus that the Martin Liberals like to brag about was achieved partially by cutting health care support to the provinces, among other cuts in transfers and downloading.

Nab


Sure Nab I agree, we didn't have a clue when they took office. Here's the thing you're missing, the Conservatives admit that our economy is based on free markets and is reliant on foreign trade. Conservatives admit that, and rightly so. That being said government policies matter, but aren't central drivers for our economy. The reason we've done well through it is we have a sound banking system, we have a less leveraged corporate sector, and frankly we had some money before the recession hit.

When you actually look at it, anything Harper tried to do either did very little, or nothing at all. Remember when the Liberals tried the argument that if we give Harper credit for our recovery, he should also be blamed for our recession? It's a good point actually, of course neither is true. We're in a global economy and we largely don't have a say in what happens to our own, it wasn't our fault we're in a recession, and it's not our fault we're strong during it. When you look at the strong economies of the world today, you see there based on manufacturing, which needs commodities, so that's driven the prices up. Luckily for us we sit on a stockpile of commodities.

Another falsehood is that our economy is among the best. This hardly true. Yes among G7 countries we're doing pretty well. If you look at the unemployment numbers we were at at 7.8% in January, which is below the U.S and Italy and a couple other places. However there's a large number of countries below us, Austrailia, Germany, Luxemburg, even The Netherlands are around the same and they don't even have a government.


You won't get much argument on much of that from me Unknown. It is of course largely true. The problem I see is that while our expections as to what improvements the government's actions might have produced is measurable, and perhaps not as great as some might have expected, what is not measurable is what may have happened had they not gone down the cautious path they did. We are sorta locked in to this "ever increasing expectations" satisfaction, and have for the most part avoided a major tanking of the economy that could have happened otherwise. How do you put a measurement value on something potentially very negative that we managed to avoid for the most part ?

Nab
"He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still." - Lao-Tzu
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

Post by Logitack »

More than 60 percent of Canadians do not support Harper and his government's contempt for democracy. Yet, he could win a majority with as little as 35 percent of the popular vote.

Project Democracy is a tool to help you determine if there is a way to "amp up" your vote and stop a Harper majority. By using a riding by riding election prediction model based on the most up to date public opinion polls, we can tell you which Party is best positioned to defeat the Conservative in your riding. Just enter your postal code in the box to the right. http://www.projectdemocracy.ca/


For kelowna Lake country, Cannan has a lock, big surprise LOL
Image

Key Contests

Beauport--Limoilou
Madawaska--Restigouche
Ottawa--Orléans
Sault Ste. Marie
Vancouver Island North
West Vancouver--Sunshine Coast--Sea to Sky Country

additional key ridings http://www.projectdemocracy.ca/key_contests include
Kamloops--Thompson--Cariboo
North Vancouver
Saanich--Gulf Islands
Surrey North
Vancouver Island North
Vancouver South

NAB
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

Post by NAB »

I'm satisfied at least my own riding we will re-elect the Conservative incumbent Logi. The main difference from yours is that the NDP will run a distant second, and will stay in that spot even if virtually no one votes for the Liberals, Greens or "other".

But the way I see it overall is that I will personally have to live with whatever the majority of Canadians who decide to vote say at the polls nation wide May 2nd. I am only confident that....

1. The Conservatives will almost certainly be re-elected, either as a minority or a majority government. Their platform is clear, and primarily involves seeing us continue the progress of recovery from a major global recession bordering on depression and resulting government deficit, in short - stay the course, rebuild the economy from an already healthy recovery.

2. If a majority Conservative win, the way is clear for 4 years barring some catastrophic event and we will have reasonable stability and forecast ability, both as business and as individuals, so can get on with the job at hand and our lives.

3. If a minority Conservative win, then the government will be again brought down by the opposition in short order because essentially nothing will have changed from the last parliament. That leaves 2 alternatives..

3a: The Governor General will dissolve Parliament once more for yet another election.

3b: The Governor General will ask the other parties if any of them are capable of forming a government. Depending on the election outcome, the next largest party in terms of seats will either be the Liberals or the NDP. Layton and Ignatieff will have to decide between themselves who will be number one and occupy the Prime Ministers office andf form a Cabinet if they tell the GG yes. Of course, whoever comes out #2 in that contest isn't going to be very happy for very long, and will probably be chewing at #1's heels as long as the coalition lasts - which also may not be very long if they have to rely on Duceppe to prop them up.

The problem I see is that we know fairly clearly what Layton's platform is, but Ignatieff's not so much although we have the gist of it - "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it" and smoke and mirrors for the most part. What we don't know is what the platform resulting from their coalition chemistry might look like, and we won't know that until everything is cast in stone. To me that is very scary ground - i.e. not knowing what the government you get will do in terms of policy and direction.

So no matter which way we cut it, there is only one thing for sure - and that is what will happen if the Conservatives win a majority. Anything else is a turkey shoot - and potentially a very unstable and bad thing for Canada and Canadians, ...particularly if it requires reliance on the Bloc to prop up the coalition of Liberals and NDP to keep it in power.

I certainly wouldn't want to be Governor General and having to call this one, potentially with a parachuted in Liberal usurper or an NDP leader as PM, either of them beholden to a Quebec separatist in order to keep their job. Sounds like a potential arrangement that is going to cost Canadian taxpayers big money, with an extraordinary amount of it flowing to Montreal political elite and power brokers once again.

Nab
Last edited by NAB on Apr 22nd, 2011, 6:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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steven lloyd
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Re: How do you decide who to vote for?

Post by steven lloyd »

NAB wrote: 3. If a minority Conservative win, then the government will be again brought down by the opposition in short order because essentially nothing will have changed from the last parliament. That leaves 2 alternatives..

3a: The Governor General will dissolve Parliament once more for yet another election.

3b: The Governor General will ask the other parties if any of them are capable of forming a government. Depending on the election outcome, the next largest party in terms of seats will either be the Liberals or the NDP. Layton and Ignatieff will have to decide between themselves who will be number one and occupy the Prime Ministers office if they tell the GG yes.

Both ( a and b ) very good reasons ( among others ) to really hope the Conservatives get a majority.

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