Vote Mobs!

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Smurf
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by Smurf »

At least tell me this Granny. If the city of Kelowna hires private companies to clean the snow off their streets and the city of Vernon hires and uses city employees, do the employees of both cities have real jobs or only the city of Kelowns because they are employed by private industry. In the end all of them are paid by tax dollars coming through the local governments. Please explain.
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grammafreddy
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by grammafreddy »

I did ... the other times I posted on this topic of conversation. I don't have the time or the inclination to try to explain it all over again - especially since you obviously have your back up about it. Suffice to say (once more) that government jobs are not new-wealth created jobs but are wages paid from diminished dollars from other people's taxes. If everybody had government jobs, there would be no money to pay government workers. There has to be a free enterprise system with *gasp* capitalism in order to keep Canada's economy running. The alternative is communism where everyone works for the government and government owns everything - including all enterprise - and takes all the profit from it, then pays pittance to the people who do the work. And we all know how successful and pleasant that is, don't we?

Soooo, sorry, Steve, but IMO, your wages are dependent upon somebody else having a free enterprise job, working for a capitalist, and paying taxes to the Canadian, provincial, regional or municipal government. And so, too, is the contractor who did the work on your house.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by NAB »

Perhaps a better comparison would be to define what jobs produce national wealth, and what jobs do not and instead produce a drain on national wealth. Even some private sector jobs can be a major drain on national wealth. Lawyers, Judges, and politicians for example ;-)

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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by NAB »

By the way, when it comes to politicians, actually it is the bureaucracy that "governs" the country not parliament, and we hire some (usually private sector) folk part time to sit in parliament and the senate or on some committee on occasion, set some broad policy, and try to figure out how to stop the bureaucracy from screwing things up too badly and getting the boss (us) in hot water.

Some of the brighter ones get to sit in Cabinet and actually do something productive on a day to day full time basis, while those who are less bright get to play and take a lot of time of to pursue their personal jobs and interests. They of course are permitted to hire staff on the taxpayers dime to fill the gaps, and handle the occasional request for information, or assistance in penetrating some government bureaucratic department. Of course, particularly the less bright ones, have to get their guidance and direction from the very bureaucracy they theoretically are there to control. The fact that many of them come from backgrounds as lawyers, economists, journalists, even doctors, it is fairly easy to predict who does most of the work, as well as recognize their biases when they do the job assigned to them by the clerks.

Of course, in order to hit the short list for that part time job, they need money to intensify their campaign for top pick for the part time job. They get some of that from the governing bureaucracy (i.e. filtered through from we taxpayers), but even more from their "supporters", whether individuals or companies. But even then all that "private" money comes, at the end of the day, from the worker and taxpayer, you and me. It is in reality all one great recycling program, ....with money as the recyclable. It all is only sustainable so long as the program keeps working and churning, and the people who feed it at the bottom end are themselves working and producing wealth.

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The Green Barbarian
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by The Green Barbarian »

Bagotricks wrote:Just like I said. In the right wing future - we will not be paid with money - but with food, housing and clothing given to us by our "employers" who are heavily subsidized and tax sheltered in order for a "healthy economy" and to "keep creating jobs". What do we need "money" for anyways - just cut the middle man out, pay us with food and clothes and stop pretending we are slaves and buck up and start acting like it! If you work *really really* hard - you can become a manager and get paid with REAL MONEY and maybe buy a house off the company lot one day! Just keep working hard!


You call this a "right-wing" future, yet you just described how the Communist countries like Cuba and North Korea function on a daily basis. Methinks you need to educate yourself a bit on economics and "left-wing" vs "right-wing" as you seem to be very confused.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by JLives »

You're right, it does sound like that but that is where things are steadily heading. China seems more capitalist than the US right now. I guess sometimes planning centrally pays off.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by The Green Barbarian »

jennylives wrote:You're right, it does sound like that but that is where things are steadily heading. China seems more capitalist than the US right now. I guess sometimes planning centrally pays off.


Benevolent dictatorships are always the most efficient form of government as you don't have to stop and argue about anything, you can just react and the buck stops with one person. Democracies are by their very nature extremely inefficient, as everyone, no matter how ill-informed, has a say in how things are done. Such is the price of democracy.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by CJT84 »

jennylives wrote:You're right, it does sound like that but that is where things are steadily heading. China seems more capitalist than the US right now. I guess sometimes planning centrally pays off.


lol sure, their planned economy is making a massive housing crisis bigger than the world has ever seen. 50+ million apartments in China are vacant. Parts of the country have sub-saharan Africa levels of poverty. They have massive malls bigger than west edmonton, vacant. China is a mess and their GDP figures are outright fraud in real terms.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by CJT84 »

The Green Barbarian wrote:
jennylives wrote:You're right, it does sound like that but that is where things are steadily heading. China seems more capitalist than the US right now. I guess sometimes planning centrally pays off.


Benevolent dictatorships are always the most efficient form of government as you don't have to stop and argue about anything, you can just react and the buck stops with one person. Democracies are by their very nature extremely inefficient, as everyone, no matter how ill-informed, has a say in how things are done. Such is the price of democracy.


Wow you couldn't be more wrong. Dictators are never efficient due to the cronies all around them and the fact economics can't be planned. Show me a country tht has ever matched the real growth of the USA 1870-1950 or the UK 1815-1920, there are none. Dictatorships tend to lie a lot more too, kinda like China who fudges their numbers constantly and hence why the Shang Hai exchange doesnt have far more foreign investment.
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steven lloyd
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by steven lloyd »

grammafreddy wrote: Soooo, sorry, Steve, but IMO, your wages are dependent upon somebody else having a free enterprise job, working for a capitalist, and paying taxes to the Canadian, provincial, regional or municipal government.

:129: No apologies needed grammy. I know where my wages come from and who I serve, and I have no problem with that knowing that society would be in some severe difficulty without public servants such as myself performing the critical responsibilities we are tasked with. I also understand the point you are trying to make in regards to capitalist venture creating new wealth, however, your simplistic description (understanding?) of capitalism vs communism certainly reveals there is some room for further appreciating the complexities of an interdependent system. Anyways, getting off topic and gotta go ...

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The Green Barbarian
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by The Green Barbarian »

CJT84 wrote:
The Green Barbarian wrote:
jennylives wrote:You're right, it does sound like that but that is where things are steadily heading. China seems more capitalist than the US right now. I guess sometimes planning centrally pays off.


Benevolent dictatorships are always the most efficient form of government as you don't have to stop and argue about anything, you can just react and the buck stops with one person. Democracies are by their very nature extremely inefficient, as everyone, no matter how ill-informed, has a say in how things are done. Such is the price of democracy.


Wow you couldn't be more wrong. Dictators are never efficient due to the cronies all around them and the fact economics can't be planned. Show me a country tht has ever matched the real growth of the USA 1870-1950 or the UK 1815-1920, there are none. Dictatorships tend to lie a lot more too, kinda like China who fudges their numbers constantly and hence why the Shang Hai exchange doesnt have far more foreign investment.


Ha - yeah you are right - in practice dictators are very inefficient. In a lot of ways the parliamentarian system of government is almost like a benevolent dictatorship, given how much power we vest in the office of the PM, someone most Canadians don't even get to vote for (directly), like the US system.
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Smurf
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by Smurf »

If anyone is interested I started a topic in Social concerns regarding real jobs "Real jobs or not", as we were discussing earlier in this thread. I just wondered if it was worth having it's own topic instead of derailing this one.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by 008 »

In national polls of party preferences, aren’t only those with land lines
phoned? The majority of 18 to 24 year-olds use cell phones, so any data
generated by Ipsos Reid, EKOS, Nanos, or other research firms may be less
accurate than it seems to indicate.

If the youth vote doubles from 2008, I think it’s likely a Liberal or NDP
minority. If the youth vote triples, a Liberal or NDP majority.

If one looks at various vote mob websites, even though they say they are
“non-partisan”, you sometimes see links to articles critical of the
Conservatives, but rarely, if ever, a link to any article critical of the
Liberals, NDP or Greens.

And if you research the backgrounds of those organizing vote mobs, many
have been actively involved in issues associated with the progressive side
of the political spectrum.

There is speculation as to what percentage of those participating in vote
mobs will actually vote, but the youth vote has been vastly underestimated
by the pundits and the pollsters.

The youth vote may in fact be the “sleeper” component of this election.
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The Green Barbarian
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by The Green Barbarian »

008 wrote:The youth vote may in fact be the “sleeper” component of this election.


I've heard this for many elections now - yet to see it. Also - I find it hilarious that the assumption is always that the youth don't vote Conservative. Not all youth are as indocrinated into the "spend spend spend" mantra of the left as you may think.
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UnknownResident
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by UnknownResident »

The Green Barbarian wrote:
008 wrote:The youth vote may in fact be the “sleeper” component of this election.


I've heard this for many elections now - yet to see it. Also - I find it hilarious that the assumption is always that the youth don't vote Conservative. Not all youth are as indocrinated into the "spend spend spend" mantra of the left as you may think.



Well I think a large percentage of the youth would not vote Conservative. Probably somewhere around say 65% wouldn't vote for them... Oh wait, isn't that the national average? LOL. In talking with friends I'd say quite a few, if they were to vote, would vote Conservative.

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