Vote Mobs!

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UnknownResident
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Re: Vote Mobs!

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The Green Barbarian wrote:
UnknownResident wrote:
grammafreddy wrote:And people under 30 have enough life skills and experience to do better or be trusted more? If all these social and environmental programs that the under 30's want are any indication of their ability to run a country, then we are in very serious deep dooodoooo ... .



Says who? The generation that got us into this hole? Thanks for the concern, but I'll do my thinking for myself.

Remember just because that's how it's been done in the past doesn't mean it's the only way, and it doesn't mean it's suppose to continue that way.


what hole is that? Every generation blames the one before it for their problems.



Well yeah, in this case the generation before is passing on it's problems to the younger ones, saying "fix it, but do it our way" which clearly isn't working with anything. Pollution, economy, socially, it's all in tatters.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

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Nibs wrote:Guess this is too hard for some folks to understand.

Nibs wrote:Not such a bad policy methinks, it is the over 30's that made this mess,
pollution, fiscal deficit spending, hog trough politicians, global warming, et al.


.... and did you consider that maybe we were the under 30s then but now we are wiser and know much more than we did when we were young, stupid, wet behind the ears and full of Trudeaumania-brainwashing - like the under 30s today except you can switch Trudeaumania with Al Gore and David Suzuki brainwashing?

Now perhaps some of us have figured out what it means to be able to keep more of our paycheques and make an effort to keep public spending down, trim expenses for ourselves and expect the same from our governments - and also know that debt is a bad thing and not to be encouraged or promoted as anything wonderful - because it just means (in real terms) that it is going to mean less jingle in our jeans from our pay that we work hard for.

As for global warming/climate change/greenhouse gas/carbon credits .... every person (young or old) who spouts off at me about all the damage MY GENERATION did had better not be buying anything in plastic packaging, plastic garbage bags, fast food and drinks, carpet and fabrics and vinyl siding and soffits and trims for their homes, laminate flooring, plywood anything, edible oil product coffee creamer, plastic shoes and plastic iron-on heat transfer decals on their T-shirts and ball caps, plastic picnic plates and cutlery, plastic phones and ipods, plastic nails for their manicured fingers, plastic bird feeders and pet dishes, plastic zippers and buttons on their clothing and accessories and other products, plastic cases on their cameras and computers, plastic medicine and vitamin bottles, Lycra and Spandex in their "gee, look at me I am so wonderful because I am a runner and I cycle everywhere and save the world" clothing, plastic buckets, plastic hoses and plastic water barrels for their green gardening, and on and on and on ...
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The Green Barbarian
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Re: Vote Mobs!

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UnknownResident wrote: Pollution, economy, socially, it's all in tatters.


See - it saddens me to hear a young person say stuff like this, because it just plain isn't true. Obviously, you've come by this opinion by listening to fools and idiots who have convinced you that everything is "in tatters", but it isn't. Not by a long shot. In many ways, things are so much better for this generation than they were even 20 years ago. Trust me - anyone who is telling you that "things are in tatters" is either trying to sell you something, or is a complete fruit-cake. Usually it's trying to sell you something - so beware of anyone telling you this crap with one hand, as the other one is coming for your wallet, your vote, or your precious time, and you shouldn't be giving any of these things friviously.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

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The Green Barbarian wrote:
UnknownResident wrote: Pollution, economy, socially, it's all in tatters.


See - it saddens me to hear a young person say stuff like this, because it just plain isn't true. Obviously, you've come by this opinion by listening to fools and idiots who have convinced you that everything is "in tatters", but it isn't. Not by a long shot. In many ways, things are so much better for this generation than they were even 20 years ago. Trust me - anyone who is telling you that "things are in tatters" is either trying to sell you something, or is a complete fruit-cake. Usually it's trying to sell you something - so beware of anyone telling you this crap with one hand, as the other one is coming for your wallet, your vote, or your precious time, and you shouldn't be giving any of these things friviously.


Well economics we could debate till we're blue in the face, so let's look at the other two.

Pollution is pretty obvious, we've got a problem there, if you disagree-cool, but most scientists seem to think we've got an issue. Climate change is debatable, but we're messing up the environment regardless.

Socially we're slow-evolving, possibly not entirely due to the government though this flip-flopping on policies certainly slows us. We have this amazing technological capability- just look at how far we've come with cell phone and tv and computers. But socially we're just a bump ahead of where we were in the 50's, a small bump. But we're kinda getting off topic I think.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

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grammafreddy wrote:
Nibs wrote:Guess this is too hard for some folks to understand.

Nibs wrote:Not such a bad policy methinks, it is the over 30's that made this mess,
pollution, fiscal deficit spending, hog trough politicians, global warming, et al.


.... and did you consider that maybe we were the under 30s then but now we are wiser and know much more than we did when we were young, stupid, wet behind the ears and full of Trudeaumania-brainwashing - like the under 30s today except you can switch Trudeaumania with Al Gore and David Suzuki brainwashing?

Now perhaps some of us have figured out what it means to be able to keep more of our paycheques and make an effort to keep public spending down, trim expenses for ourselves and expect the same from our governments - and also know that debt is a bad thing and not to be encouraged or promoted as anything wonderful - because it just means (in real terms) that it is going to mean less jingle in our jeans from our pay that we work hard for.

As for global warming/climate change/greenhouse gas/carbon credits .... every person (young or old) who spouts off at me about all the damage MY GENERATION did had better not be buying anything in plastic packaging, plastic garbage bags, fast food and drinks, carpet and fabrics and vinyl siding and soffits and trims for their homes, laminate flooring, plywood anything, edible oil product coffee creamer, plastic shoes and plastic iron-on heat transfer decals on their T-shirts and ball caps, plastic picnic plates and cutlery, plastic phones and ipods, plastic nails for their manicured fingers, plastic bird feeders and pet dishes, plastic zippers and buttons on their clothing and accessories and other products, plastic cases on their cameras and computers, plastic medicine and vitamin bottles, Lycra and Spandex in their "gee, look at me I am so wonderful because I am a runner and I cycle everywhere and save the world" clothing, plastic buckets, plastic hoses and plastic water barrels for their green gardening, and on and on and on ...



It's cute you think that your view is the best view due to overwhelming experience, and that your generation has messed up before so there's no way you'll mess up again. You also have this "I'm not the problem" thing going on with the environment. Regardless if you agree with climate change or not, we're messing stuff up. The point is you make what changes you can, so to sit there and think the person who bought a bottle of water is just as accountable as someone who drives a pickup with a hemi is ridiculous. You do what you can, and obviously some people care, and obviously others don't. To get it back to politics, obviously Harper doesn't care. And if you agree that it's not a problem, that's your prerogative.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

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UnknownResident wrote: To get it back to politics, obviously Harper doesn't care. And if you agree that it's not a problem, that's your prerogative.


Obviously doesn't care about what? You aren't being clear here.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

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The Green Barbarian wrote:
UnknownResident wrote: To get it back to politics, obviously Harper doesn't care. And if you agree that it's not a problem, that's your prerogative.


Obviously doesn't care about what? You aren't being clear here.


Err sorry if that wasn't clear, about the environment.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

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UnknownResident wrote:
grammafreddy wrote:
Nibs wrote:Guess this is too hard for some folks to understand.

Nibs wrote:Not such a bad policy methinks, it is the over 30's that made this mess,
pollution, fiscal deficit spending, hog trough politicians, global warming, et al.


.... and did you consider that maybe we were the under 30s then but now we are wiser and know much more than we did when we were young, stupid, wet behind the ears and full of Trudeaumania-brainwashing - like the under 30s today except you can switch Trudeaumania with Al Gore and David Suzuki brainwashing?

Now perhaps some of us have figured out what it means to be able to keep more of our paycheques and make an effort to keep public spending down, trim expenses for ourselves and expect the same from our governments - and also know that debt is a bad thing and not to be encouraged or promoted as anything wonderful - because it just means (in real terms) that it is going to mean less jingle in our jeans from our pay that we work hard for.

As for global warming/climate change/greenhouse gas/carbon credits .... every person (young or old) who spouts off at me about all the damage MY GENERATION did had better not be buying anything in plastic packaging, plastic garbage bags, fast food and drinks, carpet and fabrics and vinyl siding and soffits and trims for their homes, laminate flooring, plywood anything, edible oil product coffee creamer, plastic shoes and plastic iron-on heat transfer decals on their T-shirts and ball caps, plastic picnic plates and cutlery, plastic phones and ipods, plastic nails for their manicured fingers, plastic bird feeders and pet dishes, plastic zippers and buttons on their clothing and accessories and other products, plastic cases on their cameras and computers, plastic medicine and vitamin bottles, Lycra and Spandex in their "gee, look at me I am so wonderful because I am a runner and I cycle everywhere and save the world" clothing, plastic buckets, plastic hoses and plastic water barrels for their green gardening, and on and on and on ...



It's cute you think that your view is the best view due to overwhelming experience, and that your generation has messed up before so there's no way you'll mess up again. You also have this "I'm not the problem" thing going on with the environment. Regardless if you agree with climate change or not, we're messing stuff up. The point is you make what changes you can, so to sit there and think the person who bought a bottle of water is just as accountable as someone who drives a pickup with a hemi is ridiculous. You do what you can, and obviously some people care, and obviously others don't. To get it back to politics, obviously Harper doesn't care. And if you agree that it's not a problem, that's your prerogative.


I wasn't trying to be cute. I get really frustrated when people just do not get the picture about economics and how governments are funded from tax dollars. I am sorry you do not understand that yet. I didn't, either, when I was younger. But all I am saying is that with age and experience comes (hopefully) understanding and knowledge.

And yes, a person who buys a bottle of water IS just as accountable as someone who drives a pick-up with a hemi. The pick-up guy maybe isn't chucking his water bottle and clogging up the dump or the roadsides so they BOTH are doing damage.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

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grammafreddy wrote:
UnknownResident wrote:
grammafreddy wrote:
Nibs wrote:Guess this is too hard for some folks to understand.

Nibs wrote:Not such a bad policy methinks, it is the over 30's that made this mess,
pollution, fiscal deficit spending, hog trough politicians, global warming, et al.


.... and did you consider that maybe we were the under 30s then but now we are wiser and know much more than we did when we were young, stupid, wet behind the ears and full of Trudeaumania-brainwashing - like the under 30s today except you can switch Trudeaumania with Al Gore and David Suzuki brainwashing?

Now perhaps some of us have figured out what it means to be able to keep more of our paycheques and make an effort to keep public spending down, trim expenses for ourselves and expect the same from our governments - and also know that debt is a bad thing and not to be encouraged or promoted as anything wonderful - because it just means (in real terms) that it is going to mean less jingle in our jeans from our pay that we work hard for.

As for global warming/climate change/greenhouse gas/carbon credits .... every person (young or old) who spouts off at me about all the damage MY GENERATION did had better not be buying anything in plastic packaging, plastic garbage bags, fast food and drinks, carpet and fabrics and vinyl siding and soffits and trims for their homes, laminate flooring, plywood anything, edible oil product coffee creamer, plastic shoes and plastic iron-on heat transfer decals on their T-shirts and ball caps, plastic picnic plates and cutlery, plastic phones and ipods, plastic nails for their manicured fingers, plastic bird feeders and pet dishes, plastic zippers and buttons on their clothing and accessories and other products, plastic cases on their cameras and computers, plastic medicine and vitamin bottles, Lycra and Spandex in their "gee, look at me I am so wonderful because I am a runner and I cycle everywhere and save the world" clothing, plastic buckets, plastic hoses and plastic water barrels for their green gardening, and on and on and on ...



It's cute you think that your view is the best view due to overwhelming experience, and that your generation has messed up before so there's no way you'll mess up again. You also have this "I'm not the problem" thing going on with the environment. Regardless if you agree with climate change or not, we're messing stuff up. The point is you make what changes you can, so to sit there and think the person who bought a bottle of water is just as accountable as someone who drives a pickup with a hemi is ridiculous. You do what you can, and obviously some people care, and obviously others don't. To get it back to politics, obviously Harper doesn't care. And if you agree that it's not a problem, that's your prerogative.


I wasn't trying to be cute. I get really frustrated when people just do not get the picture about economics and how governments are funded from tax dollars. I am sorry you do not understand that yet. I didn't, either, when I was younger. But all I am saying is that with age and experience comes (hopefully) understanding and knowledge.

And yes, a person who buys a bottle of water IS just as accountable as someone who drives a pick-up with a hemi. The pick-up guy maybe isn't chucking his water bottle and clogging up the dump or the roadsides so they BOTH are doing damage.



LOL stop trying to preach this vast knowledge via experience when I think I've pretty clearly shown that I may know a thing or two about the economy. Just because a view doesn't matchup exactly to yours try defending your point instead of "well I'm right because he's young and I've got experience".
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Re: Vote Mobs!

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UnknownResident wrote:
The Green Barbarian wrote:
UnknownResident wrote: To get it back to politics, obviously Harper doesn't care. And if you agree that it's not a problem, that's your prerogative.


Obviously doesn't care about what? You aren't being clear here.


Err sorry if that wasn't clear, about the environment.


Harper doesn't care about the environment. Sigh...I really hate these generalistic comments, especially from people who profess to "know" something about politics etc. You aren't the first person I have heard parrot this load of garbage, and it really puzzles me. It definitely puzzled me a few months ago when the federal government denied a mining license to Taseko Resources at Williams Lake for their gold mine, as it defied all of the "known" logic about the Conservatives, in that it showed that they:
1) In fact did "care" about the environment and;
2) Respected the Native demands and rights

Why would they do this? They don't "care" about either thing according to a vast majority of the uneducated electorate, so why bother? Totally baffling.

Then I realized the following - unless you profess your willingness to go through with the following:
1. Implement economically crippling "environmental" taxes on carbon consumption on an unwilling populace
2. Implement an equally economically crippling "cap and trade" restrictions on an unwilling populace
3. Implement crippling restrictions and taxes on oil sands development
4. End all "subsidies" to the oil and gas industry (without explaining or understanding what those "subsidies" are)
5. Oppose any and all development anywhere unless it is deemed "sustainable" with no understanding what "sustainable" means
6. Be willing to pander to whatever Margaret Atwood and David Suzuki say you should be doing, despite the fact neither person has any training whatsoever in climate or environmental science
7. Bend over to appease any and all environmental organizations, especially foreign ones that hand out stupid "fossil awards" at meaningless and idiotic "climate change" conferences
8. Actually care what bizarre losers in the media, especially giant losers in the foreign media from countries who are going into the economic toilet, losers like George Monbiot, think of us
9. support handing trillions of dollars earned from taxing your already over-taxed populace to third world countries and well known scum-bag dictators like Robert Mugabe, so that they can "fight" climate change, "fighting" climate change in their definition being socking away more billions of dollars in their Swiss bank accounts.

I could go on - but as I see it - if you don't follow, ascribe to or scream to the high heavens your willingness to blindly follow the above 9 "action" items, with careless disregard for jobs, the economy, common sense or the ability to apply critical thought processes, then the generalistic tag is ascribed to you that "obviously, you don't care about the environment". It doesn't matter that you didn't green light a mine in BC that the provincial government had already said could go ahead, at great political risk. It doesn't matter that you try to subsidize green technology and stimulate green investment by changing the legislation to allow flow-through investment in "green" tech. None of that matters if you aren't willing to prostrate yourself in front of the world leading "doom and gloomer" idiots out there, and beg forgiveness for all of your environmental "crimes" (which aren't really crimes at all), tear your clothes and beat your chest for the crime of being a "rich" nation, and immediately go about implementing idiotic taxes and poorly thought out cap and trade carbon credit ponzi schemes upon your people, despite their understanding of just how stupid and useless these taxes are. To follow these 9 steps - THAT's good government apparently, and that qualifies, in the weak mind, as "caring about the environment". And THAT also, is a giant load of smelly compost material.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

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Straw man.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

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UnknownResident wrote:

LOL stop trying to preach this vast knowledge via experience when I think I've pretty clearly shown that I may know a thing or two about the economy. Just because a view doesn't matchup exactly to yours try defending your point instead of "well I'm right because he's young and I've got experience".


Okay - if Layton and Iggy add social programs and increase funding for others that currently exist, please tell me how they will pay for them - plus the increase in staff and bureaucracy.

I've always been open to increasing my knowledge base, so I am most anxious to get your solution. I know Layton said he would increase business taxes, so perhaps you will also educate me on how that will impact jobs in the private sector and the economy.

I think I defended my view many times - with great detail. Sorry you don't like my opinion. I stand by it until you can come up with something better.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

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grammafreddy wrote:
UnknownResident wrote:

LOL stop trying to preach this vast knowledge via experience when I think I've pretty clearly shown that I may know a thing or two about the economy. Just because a view doesn't matchup exactly to yours try defending your point instead of "well I'm right because he's young and I've got experience".


Okay - if Layton and Iggy add social programs and increase funding for others that currently exist, please tell me how they will pay for them - plus the increase in staff and bureaucracy.

I've always been open to increasing my knowledge base, so I am most anxious to get your solution. I know Layton said he would increase business taxes, so perhaps you will also educate me on how that will impact jobs in the private sector and the economy.


Layton wants to increase corporate taxes on large businesses, mainly aiming at the big oil companies, while reducing taxes for small businesses. Now, i've explained earlier that our corporate tax rates are too low already, thanks largely to the Conservatives, however to raise them now could be detrimental. The thing is though, big oil companies don't really have to much of a choice, they have to setup in Canada, so theoretically it should be easy to raise their taxes, in fact to lower them (which the Conservatives did, with the Libs also voting for them) is the fairly ridiculous. There's this idea that corporate taxes create jobs, which there's no evidence of, but we're already the lowest in G7 countries, so if there was a benefit to it, we would already have seen that.

How will it impact jobs in the private sector? There's very little to show that reducing taxes on big corporations does anything to create jobs, but the worry is by now increasing them we'll lose jobs, which I have to side on the side that it's doubtful. These corporations we're talking about are going to ship what jobs they can to other countries if it's cheaper for them, regardless of our tax rate. If we're already WELL below the US corporate tax rate, we can raise it quite a bit and still have a very aggressive rate for 1st world industrialized countries. If your goal is to compete with some less well off countries though, we'll never get there, and we'll just end up giving corporations more money that they don't spend on economy.

ETA: I know Harper doesn't have more cuts in this budget, however he has expressed wanting to lower them further in the future.
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Re: Vote Mobs!

Post by grammafreddy »

All fine and dandy ... but who ends up paying these increased taxes in the end?
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Re: Vote Mobs!

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grammafreddy wrote:All fine and dandy ... but who ends up paying these increased taxes in the end?



You raise a good point, if do we now raise taxes on these companies (particularly oil companies) are they going to in turn raise the price on the goods they supply? Well in the case of the oil companies, we are in no way getting a stellar deal right now, in fact we're already getting gouged pretty hard in my understanding. But this topic interests me and to be honest I flip-flop on the issue quite a bit between keeping our current rate and raising them, but there's no point which I thought lowering them is a good idea. And that's really the key, not to lower them, as soon as you do that it makes raising them very difficult. And since Harper lowered them, can we just forgive and forget? Even though he wants to lower them more? I fail to see the economic incentive to lower our taxes to the point they're currently at and beyond.

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