Jack Layton...Professional snake oil salesman…

[Al Czervic]

IF Jack Layton becomes Leader of the Opposition, he's entitled to all the same perks as any other Leader the Opposition has been entitled to. Why should he not be? Are those of you trying to make some sort of political hay out of this seriously implying he should allow Stornoway to sit empty while he lives somewhere else just to prove a point?

If attacking him for accepting the same perks previous Leaders of the Opposition have received is the best you can come up with as a means of trying to get people to change their vote, then that's pretty sad.

Disagreeing with NDP policies is fine, but the kind of stuff being posted in this thread just makes the posters look desperate to prop up the Tory parties dwindling fortunes (and I'm a person whose always voted Tory in the past). Cut it out guys, because your hurting more than helping Harper's chances of success. Don't you get it? People are TIRED of this sort of character assassination and mud slinging, it's part of why Jack's rising in the polls. All you're doing is reinforcing peoples decision that it's time for a change from the same old, same old. In other words, your mud slinging efforts are counter productive, and beneath you.

Let’s put things into perspective Merry. There are MULTIPLE threads in this election forum that all attack Harper even for subjects as trivial as to how Harper plays the piano and sings. I created but ONE thread simply to pass on FACTUALLY ACCURATE information about Jack Layton. It is a FACT that Jack Layton and his spouse WERE caught living in affordable housing when they had a six figure income. It is a FACT that in spite of being married and sharing expenses and showing taxpayer’s some respect that Jack Layton and his MP wife Olivia Chow choose to DOUBLE BILL taxpayer’s for their expenses.. It is legal, yes, but it is also factual that they do so. Likewise it is ALSO a fact that when Jack Layton’s hernia needed attention where did he go? He went and got PRIVATE medical care.

Again this is NOT character assassination these are all facts. I simply think that a guy who claims to “care” about the little guy should be revealed for the fraud that he truly is because clearly it is the “little guy” that Jack Layton sticks it to whenever and wherever he can when it comes to the blatant disregard he has shown taxpayers money over his nearly 30 year career in politics.

[The Green Barbarian]

IF Jack Layton becomes Leader of the Opposition, he's entitled to all the same perks as any other Leader the Opposition has been entitled to. Why should he not be? Are those of you trying to make some sort of political hay out of this seriously implying he should allow Stornoway to sit empty while he lives somewhere else just to prove a point?

If attacking him for accepting the same perks previous Leaders of the Opposition have received is the best you can come up with as a means of trying to get people to change their vote, then that's pretty sad.

Disagreeing with NDP policies is fine, but the kind of stuff being posted in this thread just makes the posters look desperate to prop up the Tory parties dwindling fortunes (and I'm a person whose always voted Tory in the past). Cut it out guys, because your hurting more than helping Harper's chances of success. Don't you get it? People are TIRED of this sort of character assassination and mud slinging, it's part of why Jack's rising in the polls. All you're doing is reinforcing peoples decision that it's time for a change from the same old, same old. In other words, your mud slinging efforts are counter productive, and beneath you.

I think you missed the point. Of course Jackolayton is allowed the use of Stornaway if he is annointed opp leader, hell, even Preston Manning had to give in and use Stornaway after he promised he wouldn't. What Jack has demonstrated a propensity to do is take the maximum amount of benefits with no regard for the taxpayer. While I don't deny him Stornaway if the Canadian electorate really wants to be that crazy, but I would want a strict watch put on his expenditures for sure.

[oneh2obabe]

Likewise it is ALSO a fact that when Jack Layton’s hernia needed attention where did he go? He went and got PRIVATE medical care.

Stephen Harper suggested that Jack Layton has used a private clinic outside of medicare. He's wrong.

The Facts:
In the 1990s Layton had a hernia operation at the Shouldice Clinic north of Toronto. It was referred by his family doctor and paid with his provincial health card.

The Shouldice Clinic has existed since 1945. When Medicare was introduced, it was grandfathered and made part of the public system. In 1973, the Ontario Progressive Conservative government passed a law limiting what it can charge, capped its profits at 6.5% of the original investment and dictated that the family of its founder cannot expand or sell the clinic without permission. It only performs hernia operations.

The Shouldice Hospital is not an example of private health care as an alternative to public health.

[Merry]

Let’s put things into perspective Merry. There are MULTIPLE threads in this election forum that all attack Harper even for subjects as trivial as to how Harper plays the piano and sings. I created but ONE thread simply to pass on FACTUALLY ACCURATE information about Jack Layton. It is a FACT that Jack Layton and his spouse WERE caught living in affordable housing when they had a six figure income. It is a FACT that in spite of being married and sharing expenses and showing taxpayer’s some respect that Jack Layton and his MP wife Olivia Chow choose to DOUBLE BILL taxpayer’s for their expenses.. It is legal, yes, but it is also factual that they do so. Likewise it is ALSO a fact that when Jack Layton’s hernia needed attention where did he go? He went and got PRIVATE medical care.

Again this is NOT character assassination these are all facts. I simply think that a guy who claims to “care” about the little guy should be revealed for the fraud that he truly is because clearly it is the “little guy” that Jack Layton sticks it to whenever and wherever he can when it comes to the blatant disregard he has shown taxpayers money over his nearly 30 year career in politics.

First, just because the "other" guys are doing it doesn't mean you have to sink to their level. Two wrongs do not make one right!
Second, while the subsidized housing allegation does look bad, when one investigates it more the Laytons were paying what was considered to be market rent for that particular apartment. In other words, they were paying the subsidized portion themselves. While it obviously was an error of judgement to continue to live in that particular apartment after their income level rose, they did pay the maximum rent for that apartment while doing so. And broke no law. Even today, right here in BC, there are subidized apartment buildings that rent out some of their apartments to people who do not qualify for the subsidy and therefore have to pay the full rent. While admittedly they try to find low income earners to fill these spots, they will consider people with a higher income rather than leave the apartment vacant. But normally, higher income earners aren't interested in living in such places.

I think the reason the Laytons were an exception is that a) they were already living there and b) they wanted to continue to live with lower income people so as to not loose touch with those at that level of society. And while there's a lot to be said for the latter reason (because it's often true that higher income people loose the ability to relate to the problems of the poor), it was obviously a misguided choice from a political point of view; one which left them open to attack from their political opponents.

That said, I doubt this one error of judgement is going to be enough for you to convince voters that Jack is untrustworthy. Yes he made a mistake from a political point of view, but it was a long time ago and he hasn't made any others of that nature since.

As for the double billing issue, you have TWO MP's who have TWO sets of expenses, who are EACH entitled to make a claim for those expenses. They have done nothing wrong, and you know it.

[Al Czervic]

Likewise it is ALSO a fact that when Jack Layton’s hernia needed attention where did he go? He went and got PRIVATE medical care.

Stephen Harper suggested that Jack Layton has used a private clinic outside of medicare. He's wrong.

The Facts:
In the 1990s Layton had a hernia operation at the Shouldice Clinic north of Toronto. It was referred by his family doctor and paid with his provincial health card.

The Shouldice Clinic has existed since 1945. When Medicare was introduced, it was grandfathered and made part of the public system. In 1973, the Ontario Progressive Conservative government passed a law limiting what it can charge, capped its profits at 6.5% of the original investment and dictated that the family of its founder cannot expand or sell the clinic without permission. It only performs hernia operations.

The Shouldice Hospital is not an example of private health care as an alternative to public health.

Nice try at spin but sorry, but the Shouldice Hospital IS a PRIVATE hospital that is privately owned by retired Dr Byrnes Shouldice and another investor. Yes, if you are a resident of Ontario, your fees at this PRIVATE medical facility are publically covered by the Ontario Health plan but make no MISTAKE it is a PRIVATE facility and is not a public facility. I personally think it is a great partnership and an excellent example of how and where Private Medicare can work with public healthcare. It clearly worked for Jack Layton. Too bad Layton can’t come clean and admit it. But of course the public sector unions who prop up the NDP and Jack Layton would have no part of that would they?

[Al Czervic]

Let’s put things into perspective Merry. There are MULTIPLE threads in this election forum that all attack Harper even for subjects as trivial as to how Harper plays the piano and sings. I created but ONE thread simply to pass on FACTUALLY ACCURATE information about Jack Layton. It is a FACT that Jack Layton and his spouse WERE caught living in affordable housing when they had a six figure income. It is a FACT that in spite of being married and sharing expenses and showing taxpayer’s some respect that Jack Layton and his MP wife Olivia Chow choose to DOUBLE BILL taxpayer’s for their expenses.. It is legal, yes, but it is also factual that they do so. Likewise it is ALSO a fact that when Jack Layton’s hernia needed attention where did he go? He went and got PRIVATE medical care.

Again this is NOT character assassination these are all facts. I simply think that a guy who claims to “care” about the little guy should be revealed for the fraud that he truly is because clearly it is the “little guy” that Jack Layton sticks it to whenever and wherever he can when it comes to the blatant disregard he has shown taxpayers money over his nearly 30 year career in politics.

First, just because the "other" guys are doing it doesn't mean you have to sink to their level. Two wrongs do not make one right!
Second, while the subsidized housing allegation does look bad, when one investigates it more the Laytons were paying what was considered to be market rent for that particular apartment. In other words, they were paying the subsidized portion themselves. While it obviously was an error of judgement to continue to live in that particular apartment after their income level rose, they did pay the maximum rent for that apartment while doing so. And broke no law. Even today, right here in BC, there are subidized apartment buildings that rent out some of their apartments to people who do not qualify for the subsidy and therefore have to pay the full rent. While admittedly they try to find low income earners to fill these spots, they will consider people with a higher income rather than leave the apartment vacant. But normally, higher income earners aren't interested in living in such places.

I think the reason the Laytons were an exception is that a) they were already living there and b) they wanted to continue to live with lower income people so as to not loose touch with those at that level of society. And while there's a lot to be said for the latter reason (because it's often true that higher income people loose the ability to relate to the problems of the poor), it was obviously a misguided choice from a political point of view; one which left them open to attack from their political opponents.

That said, I doubt this one error of judgement is going to be enough for you to convince voters that Jack is untrustworthy. Yes he made a mistake from a political point of view, but it was a long time ago and he hasn't made any others of that nature since.

As for the double billing issue, you have TWO MP's who have TWO sets of expenses, who are EACH entitled to make a claim for those expenses. They have done nothing wrong, and you know it.

Merry,

Just to be clear I have not suggested it was illegal for Jack Layton and his MP spouse to “double bill” Canadian taxpayer’s for their obviously shared expenses. Likewise there was nothing illegal about Layton and his taxpayer financed spouse to live in subsidized housing in spite of having a six figure taxpayer subsidized salary, and finally there is absolutely nothing illegal about using a private clinic. I will say it again, NONE of this is illegal. However that ALL of it occurred is 100% factual and it certainly speaks to the character of Jack Layton and how much respect he shows to our tax dollars. I do not personally believe that anyone who REALLY cared about the so called “little guy” would so such flagrant disrespect for our tax dollars, but that of course is a personal opinion on my part. Clearly to some Layton abusing of our tax dollars is something he should be defended and celebrated for. I am just NOT one of those individuals.

[Corneliousrooster]

Just to be clear I have not suggested it was illegal for Jack Layton and his MP spouse to “double bill” Canadian taxpayer’s for their obviously shared expenses. Likewise there was nothing illegal about Layton and his taxpayer financed spouse to live in subsidized housing in spite of having a six figure taxpayer subsidized salary, and finally there is absolutely nothing illegal about using a private clinic. I will say it again, NONE of this is illegal. However that ALL of it occurred is 100% factual and it certainly speaks to the character of Jack Layton and how much respect he shows to our tax dollars. I do not personally believe that anyone who REALLY cared about the so called “little guy” would so such flagrant disrespect for our tax dollars, but that of course is a personal opinion on my part. Clearly to some Layton abusing of our tax dollars is something he should be defended and celebrated for. I am just NOT one of those individuals.

what a dirtbag eh? Using the Ontario medical system as it is designed (by NOT JACK LAYTON) to be used. Perhaps you should be blaming the ontario gov't or the past federal gov't for creating a system that neccessitates the use of a LEGAL(by your own words) private clinic?

he lived in subsidized housing and paid MORE than was required after the board ALLOWED them to remain (this happens in MANY subsidized housing units all over - I know first had as i lived in a co-op in Victoria and several families were allowed to remain when there $$$ situation improved since they moved in, after appeasing the board that decides who remains) Apparantly the board where Jack Layton lives felt that he DESERVED to remain - again, perhaps you have a problem with the board that permissed this (you realize that the board voted on this?)

Double bill the gov't for living expenses - She was HIRED as an MP as well and is ENTITLED to her own EARNINGS as set out to all MP's. should they share a pension too? If an MP's spouse works outside of the home and brings in income,should the MP get less of the living allowance?

All you have pointed out is that Jack laytonn has been living by the rules set out for him LEGALLY and what you are suggesting is that he take a step at the back of the line and take less than is offered to any other citizen - nice logic!

[Fritzthecat]

Just to be clear I have not suggested it was illegal for Jack Layton and his MP spouse to “double bill” Canadian taxpayer’s for their obviously shared expenses. Likewise there was nothing illegal about Layton and his taxpayer financed spouse to live in subsidized housing in spite of having a six figure taxpayer subsidized salary, and finally there is absolutely nothing illegal about using a private clinic. I will say it again, NONE of this is illegal. However that ALL of it occurred is 100% factual and it certainly speaks to the character of Jack Layton and how much respect he shows to our tax dollars. I do not personally believe that anyone who REALLY cared about the so called “little guy” would so such flagrant disrespect for our tax dollars, but that of course is a personal opinion on my part. Clearly to some Layton abusing of our tax dollars is something he should be defended and celebrated for. I am just NOT one of those individuals.

what a dirtbag eh? Using the Ontario medical system as it is designed (by NOT JACK LAYTON) to be used. Perhaps you should be blaming the ontario gov't or the past federal gov't for creating a system that neccessitates the use of a LEGAL(by your own words) private clinic?

he lived in subsidized housing and paid MORE than was required after the board ALLOWED them to remain (this happens in MANY subsidized housing units all over - I know first had as i lived in a co-op in Victoria and several families were allowed to remain when there $$$ situation improved since they moved in, after appeasing the board that decides who remains) Apparantly the board where Jack Layton lives felt that he DESERVED to remain - again, perhaps you have a problem with the board that permissed this (you realize that the board voted on this?)

Double bill the gov't for living expenses - She was HIRED as an MP as well and is ENTITLED to her own EARNINGS as set out to all MP's. should they share a pension too? If an MP's spouse works outside of the home and brings in income,should the MP get less of the living allowance?

All you have pointed out is that Jack laytonn has been living by the rules set out for him LEGALLY and what you are suggesting is that he take a step at the back of the line and take less than is offered to any other citizen - nice logic!

3 pages of nonsense fuelled by good old Konservative fear mongering and misinformation. If this is the worst they can come up with, that Jack and Olivia played by the rules...well.....pretty desperate for Fuhrer Harper and his mindless minions.

[The Green Barbarian]

3 pages of nonsense fuelled by good old Konservative fear mongering and misinformation. If this is the worst they can come up with, that Jack and Olivia played by the rules...well.....pretty desperate for Fuhrer Harper and his mindless minions.

Who is desperate here? 3 pages about Jackolayton ripping off taxpayers, or the multiple page threads bashing Harper, including utilizing footage of him singing the song "Imagine". That smells like desperation, along with the Layton apologists on this thread who have been extremely desperate is trying to spin Taliban Jack as something other than a guy who enjoys milking the taxpayers to the max.

[UnknownResident]

3 pages of nonsense fuelled by good old Konservative fear mongering and misinformation. If this is the worst they can come up with, that Jack and Olivia played by the rules...well.....pretty desperate for Fuhrer Harper and his mindless minions.

Who is desperate here? 3 pages about Jackolayton ripping off taxpayers, or the multiple page threads bashing Harper, including utilizing footage of him singing the song "Imagine". That smells like desperation, along with the Layton apologists on this thread who have been extremely desperate is trying to spin Taliban Jack as something other than a guy who enjoys milking the taxpayers to the max.

Well it is pretty desperation from both sides. We've pretty much covered every real issue and then some, so not a lot left but pointless attacks. The political parties are way ahead of us though, they pretty much skipped over the 'issues' because nobody wants to hear those, no they went right into attacks.

[NAB]

3 pages of nonsense fuelled by good old Konservative fear mongering and misinformation. If this is the worst they can come up with, that Jack and Olivia played by the rules...well.....pretty desperate for Fuhrer Harper and his mindless minions.

Who is desperate here? 3 pages about Jackolayton ripping off taxpayers, or the multiple page threads bashing Harper, including utilizing footage of him singing the song "Imagine". That smells like desperation, along with the Layton apologists on this thread who have been extremely desperate is trying to spin Taliban Jack as something other than a guy who enjoys milking the taxpayers to the max.

Well it is pretty desperation from both sides. We've pretty much covered every real issue and then some, so not a lot left but pointless attacks. The political parties are way ahead of us though, they pretty much skipped over the 'issues' because nobody wants to hear those, no they went right into attacks.

Well, a contrary thought might be that Harper has not been skipping over the issues. But those who 'hate" him don't tend to spend much time listening to what he has to say about them. Instead they seek out all sorts of non-issue stuff to use against him in attempts to destroy him, ...and that's very unfortunate for Canada, as well as the destroyers.

Nab

[Al Czervic]

That is true Nabs, but of course the Conservative’s running “just visiting” ads about Iggy for the past year doesn’t exactly add much quality to the debate on the issues from the other side of the fence either.

[UnknownResident]

That is true Nabs, but of course the Conservative’s running “just visiting” ads about Iggy for the past year doesn’t exactly add much quality to the debate on the issues from the other side of the fence either.

Exactly, neither does only answering 5 pre-approved questions.

ETA: Although I do think those "just visiting" ads did work wonders politically in crippling the Liberals. It seems most of the votes from it are going to the NDP though.

[Merry]

I truly believe that it is all the mud slinging that has ended up hurting both the Cons and the Libs. People are sick and tired of all the unpleasantness, and want to see a return to issues and respectful disagreement. And I think the sudden NDP surge is a reflection of this, because Jack is the only leader who is perceived to have risen above all the nonsense and stuck to the issues.

While we can argue till the cows come home as to whether or not Jack is deserving of his new found status, the fact is that PERCEPTION is often greater than reality, and deserved or not the general perception of Jack in this campaign is that he's risen above some of the less desirable behaviour of the other leaders. And the Public is now considering rewarding him for that in the form of more votes.

This reward (IMHO) has more to do with the bad behaviour of the Cons and Libs than with the behaviour of the NDP, and so in that sense the Cons and Libs have no-one to blame but themselves for what is happening. Hopefully it will be a lesson well learned, and we'll start seeing some more respectful campaigning in future. Negative ads may work well in American campaigns, but we're not Americans.

[Al Czervic]

While we can debate who throws the most (or least) amount of mud I will at least agree that Layton has actually run by far the best and most effective campaign so in that respect it should not come as a surprise to some that he is being rewarded in the polls as a result of that.