UPDATE An (Un)Official Campaign Organization: FourChange.org

[Gilchy]

Your right to a point . . . they both are citizens with a political agenda, but the difference I think, with the fourchange group is that they seem only to represent the business community, or more specifically a small group in the business community, and all seem to be chamber of commerce members. They are a steering committee (by their own admission) with a specific agenda that does not represent the average folk of which the term "grassroots" implies. It appears they are trying to stack the deck so only their views will be represented . . . you can see that by the councilors they have targeted to be replaced with their own yet to be endorsed candidates . . . just my opinion.

I see where you're coming from, and appreciate it. I guess I disagree in some of the sentiment above (not necessarily yours), that because the members of the group are primarily members of the business community that their viewpoint is somehow less valid, or not to be trusted.

It's a group of people who care enough about the city, and the direction of its leadership, that they formed a group to endorse a viewpoint they feel would help the city develop and grow (not just in the developer sense). I think anytime anyone gets that committed to municipal governence, whether who agree with their goals or not, is a good thing IMHO.

Thanks for the rational and reasonable debate!

[Takin it easy !]

Your right to a point . . . they both are citizens with a political agenda, but the difference I think, with the fourchange group is that they seem only to represent the business community, or more specifically a small group in the business community, and all seem to be chamber of commerce members. They are a steering committee (by their own admission) with a specific agenda that does not represent the average folk of which the term "grassroots" implies. It appears they are trying to stack the deck so only their views will be represented . . . you can see that by the councilors they have targeted to be replaced with their own yet to be endorsed candidates . . . just my opinion.

I see where you're coming from, and appreciate it. I guess I disagree in some of the sentiment above (not necessarily yours), that because the members of the group are primarily members of the business community that their viewpoint is somehow less valid, or not to be trusted.

It's a group of people who care enough about the city, and the direction of its leadership, that they formed a group to endorse a viewpoint they feel would help the city develop and grow (not just in the developer sense). I think anytime anyone gets that committed to municipal governence, whether who agree with their goals or not, is a good thing IMHO.

Thanks for the rational and reasonable debate!

I am curious about your affiliation with this group ?
And its never "a good thing" when any group has self serving motivations and could care less about the general public and the overall stewardship of a city IMHO !

[Gilchy]

I am curious about your affiliation with this group ?
And its never "a good thing" when any group has self serving motivations and could care less about the general public and the overall stewardship of a city IMHO !

Never heard of the group before this thread. But looking at the bios of the steering committee on their webpage, nearly all of their jobs are dependent on a healthy economy. Seems to me that their motivation is simply recommending candidates who may help the local economy pick up steam. Seems to benfit the city as a whole to me.

[Pookybear]

I am curious about your affiliation with this group ?
And its never "a good thing" when any group has self serving motivations and could care less about the general public and the overall stewardship of a city IMHO !

Never heard of the group before this thread. But looking at the bios of the steering committee on their webpage, nearly all of their jobs are dependent on a healthy economy. Seems to me that their motivation is simply recommending candidates who may help the local economy pick up steam. Seems to benfit the city as a whole to me.

It seems to me the steering commitee is not about a heathy economy as much as making sure their pockets stay full. They most likely want Gray back as well as as many people with Gray's mow down Kelowna for profit attitude as possible. All these people would benefit from the building of highrises on our downtown waterfront. I don't believe they care about Kelowna as much as their own pocket books.

[Takin it easy !]

I am curious about your affiliation with this group ?
And its never "a good thing" when any group has self serving motivations and could care less about the general public and the overall stewardship of a city IMHO !

Never heard of the group before this thread. But looking at the bios of the steering committee on their webpage, nearly all of their jobs are dependent on a healthy economy. Seems to me that their motivation is simply recommending candidates who may help the local economy pick up steam. Seems to benfit the city as a whole to me.

It seems to me the steering commitee is not about a heathy economy as much as making sure their pockets stay full. They most likely want Gray back as well as as many people with Gray's mow down Kelowna for profit attitude as possible. All these people would benefit from the building of highrises on our downtown waterfront. I don't believe they care about Kelowna as much as their own pocket books.

[Gilchy]

How would the owner of an RV dealer benefit from condo buildings downtown?

[Ub2]

How would the owner of an RV dealer benefit from condo buildings downtown?

Could be an investor.

[grammafreddy]

Blanleil on the topic of FourChange:

http://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/65 ... e-Blanleil

FourChange will spark debate: Blanleil
by Wayne Moore - Story: 65854
Oct 11, 2011 / 5:18 pm

Kelowna Councillor Andre Blanleil is in favour of frank, political debate.

He says if it takes an organization such as FourChhange.org to spark that debate, then so be it.

The veteran Kelowna politician and businessman is one of four sitting councillors endorsed by the organization that believes the current council is dysfunctional, is not working, and needs to be changed.

"I think this is a good thing, it'll get people talking and that's never a bad thing," says Blanleil.

"I think the mayor's race will be good because people will actually start hearing what's going on."

Tuesday, FourChange.org released 10 items from a longer list the group says it has received from Kelowna citizens showing examples of council's lack of leadership.

The list includes:

-Much work, lots of money, great community support - but then this Council reverses the CD21 Plan
-Rapid Transit to Rutland sees much talk, many delays; watered-down plan to be 5 years in the making
-Turns out Kelowna’s new logo not so original or popular - $80,000 and 2 years “extensive” research
-City requests proposals for KSS site; then rejects all three; site still sits empty. Then, Council invents...
-...the Central Green plan; loaded with costly demands; no takers yet, could cost city up to $10 million
-Kelowna buys waterfront lots at Cedar Avenue; rejects long-planned project; now back for more study
-Salary Task Force says freeze salaries; Council delays 4 months before grudgingly accepting the report
-Bernard merchants deserve a guaranteed timeline; not: “contractors can’t work through the winter...”
-Council bounces around on Enterprise Bunnies - then argues over Backyard Chickens?
-City changing its mind on changing HOV lanes?

Blanleil says while he agrees with most of the comments he says he is not about to bash individual councillors.

"I don't agree with the direction they've taken with a lot of things and I think I've made that abundantly clear over the last three years, but I'm not going to go out there and beat them," says Blanleil.

"I agree with most of those things but, again, that's for them to say and not for me to say."

While FourChange is endorsing four current councillors Blanleil says he's surprised the media is giving the group so much attention.

"The Mission Residents Assoiciation has been putting out a list of who to vote for and sending sending it to every member that lives in the Mission. How is that different?"

So I wonder how FourChange feels about Backyard Chickens?

[morrbo]

There aren't people in Kelowna who buy into this twaddle, right? The people "supporting" it are being ironic - they have to be.

Do you believe that your parks, including City Park and the Simpson covenant lands, should be given away to private developers? If so, your choice is clear - the local fox-tea-party and their secret membership - who are so ashamed of this behaviour that they are unwilling to have their names associated with it. That's their base of support: ashamed, secret members.

What kind of "slate" has no distinct specific policies to promote? Has no specific policies they take issue with among their opposition other than to call names? Whose best shot is to fail to take aim at ideas, fail to pinpoint real identifiable issues - and in those failures rather take aim at =people=? Is that the kind of "change" we want deciding the future of our Kelowna?

And who honestly believes that Milroy couldn't have had his way? He's a billionaire and can afford an infinite number of lawyers to wear down any opposition - that's how it works. The problem with CD21 was that the city does not have the infrastructure to support so massive a project roadwise, waterwise, and servicewise - and to add it would require a treMENdous leap upward in YOUR property taxes to make you pay for HIS infrastructure - and even if he could have forced it, the installation of such infrastructure just to support one developer's assault on our common park property was nigh-impossible from a simple geophysical study - the bedrock was neither robust nor deep enough.

But if the tea-party-slate wanted to assault those who opposed your massive tax hike (to pay for privatization of your parks), why have they targeted those who also Supported CD21? What kind of leadership could we ever expect from those who can't even sling mud consistently? Seriously - anyone so weak (that they are unable to even do what a monkey does with his waste) is obviously not going to be Kelowna's most balanced and wisest leader.

This has nothing to do with the city - this is a petty, small-minded, weak, mealy-mouthed attack on individuals - it sickens me, and while I completely understand the unwillingness of its backers to be publicly identified (some "grassroots movement", eh?) because who wouldn't be ashamed of such puerile behaviour, still I cannot believe that there are people in Kelowna who would be fooled by the kind of pettiness and weakness the organizers of this smear campaign have displayed.

I contend that Kelownans are too smart to fall for this foxnewsian garbage, this cowardly hiding, this personal attack strategy. Kelownans are adults, they are bright, hardworking, and they are good, honest, decent, Civilized people. Such people don't become tea-party stooges, and they won't be fooled into voting against their own best interests, no matter how low the local tea-party stoops.

I believe in Kelowna, and I believe in our people and our future. I believe in you. We are better than those tea-party-ers - let's not americanize Kelowna - the model these tea-party wannabes want to inflict on you is the one that has failed hundreds of millions of people in the states, cost them their economy, their global respect, millions of homes, millions of livelihoods, with their unbridled, unrestrained, unregulated roughshod abuse by those with money enough to impose their plans on your community. Do we want that mentality making decisions for us down at the municipal level?

Say no to the tea-party slate - let's save Kelowna from them and all they would do to your neighbourhood.

[Ub2]

[Rwede]

But if the tea-party-slate wanted to assault those who opposed your massive tax hike (to pay for privatization of your parks), why have they targeted those who also Supported CD21?

Umm, why would there be a "massive tax hike" to pay for what you label as privatization of parks? Parks cost money to develop and maintain and are revenue negative, and if that is passed on to private enterprise, would that not lower the tax burden for the municipality? Your post makes zero sense.

[KunciJay]

Just to quote myself from another topic, since i didn't notice this thread existed when i first posted:

Definitely looks like a list of Kelowna elite, and that's a shame. Because they are not "For Change" they are for the removal (i.e "Change") of "four" candidates.

I don't see anything positive behind this group, and if anything it has pushed my thinking about who to vote for in the complete opposite of where they were intending for me to go.

If i may, i'm going to post a Letter to the Editor. I think this greatly sums up how a number of us are probably feeling.

To the editor:

RE: Fourchange comes clean

I’d like to send my heartfelt thanks to the FourChange.org people who have clearly helped me decide whom to vote for in the upcoming municipal elections: Michele Rule, Charlie Hodge, Angela Reid-Nagy and Kevin Craig.

Usually civic elections are so tough because there are so many names to choose from on the ballot and too many candidates at the forums .

But the FourChange people have kindly singled out the candidates who will help create a balanced and diverse council—with voices for not only business and developers but also voices for the arts and culture, contemporary urban planning, the environment, and social fairness.

Thanks heaps, guys! And if you want to single out any other candidates you dislike, I’ll certainly check them out with great interest.


Nancy Holmes

-Permalink-

[morrbo]

>>> Umm, why would there be a "massive tax hike" to pay for what you label as privatization of parks? Parks cost money to develop and maintain and are revenue negative, and if that is passed on to private enterprise, would that not lower the tax burden for the municipality? Your post makes zero sense.[/quote]

Yeah? You think "private enterprise" pays its own bills? Private enterprise is always less efficient, less effective, and demands the removal of laws that govern you and me, they demand breaks, concessions, exemptions from costs that you have to pay because you are not a multimillionaire - "private" projects are always more costly to build, maintain, and are of gravely inferior quality by a huge margin. The city cannot let that be done on municipal property because then we end up with yank style ghettos everywhere, so, the city builds the surrounding sewage, water supply, roads, hydro substructure, and everything else needed to support the new thousands of people moving onto a single city block. That costs a very great deal.

The developers always ask for tax concessions, further reducing their burden. On whose shoulders do you think those tens/hundreds of millions in costs fall? And the rapidly growing cost of maintaining the public environment as the development ages? Those costs fall on Your back. Then you complain about taxes. Those taxes pay for what you share with your city, except when they pay for many millions in profit subsidies to "private enterprise." What isn't making sense to you? I'm more than happy to clarify.

[Rwede]

Yeah? You think "private enterprise" pays its own bills? Private enterprise is always less efficient, less effective, and demands the removal of laws that govern you and me, they demand breaks, concessions, exemptions from costs that you have to pay because you are not a multimillionaire - "private" projects are always more costly to build, maintain, and are of gravely inferior quality by a huge margin. The city cannot let that be done on municipal property because then we end up with yank style ghettos everywhere, so, the city builds the surrounding sewage, water supply, roads, hydro substructure, and everything else needed to support the new thousands of people moving onto a single city block. That costs a very great deal.

The developers always ask for tax concessions, further reducing their burden. On whose shoulders do you think those tens/hundreds of millions in costs fall? And the rapidly growing cost of maintaining the public environment as the development ages? Those costs fall on Your back. Then you complain about taxes. Those taxes pay for what you share with your city, except when they pay for many millions in profit subsidies to "private enterprise." What isn't making sense to you? I'm more than happy to clarify.

I get it. You're simply a non-free enterpriser/unionist who feels that private companies are less efficient than unionized municipal workforces. Now that I know whom I am dealing with, I can understand your motivation (ie keep the Brothers in the union picking up goose poop) and keep the socialist councillors elected. Socialist councillors that can't decide which colour of socks to wear in the morning are far more likely to maintain the status quo for you and your union buds, instead of looking to partnerships with private organizations that will save the taxpayers millions. 'Nuff said.

[morrbo]

Personalities and credentials, eh? OK. I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of a union, Senator McCarthy - would you like me to name the union members I know for your committee, Junior Senator? [You know how that ended for him, right?]

Having been a small business owner across a spectrum of private enterprise for nearly thirty years, I have worked for and across the public and private sectors both on a contract and relationship basis. As President of a prominent and sizable business contact association heavily tied into both the most respected business schools and our Kelowna financial, professional, and management communities - a recent graduate from business school, I am finishing a further specialized business degree, and possess a fairly unique combination of business experience, contacts, and up to the minute technological currency in private enterprise. You?

If you have any reasoned and ethically relevant examination and discussion of ideas or policies, please do follow up.

In the absence of reason, without the ability to debate issues - ad hominem - the issuance of personal insults directed against individuals is the hallmark of the weakest minds and saddest hearts.

Nicely done, Sir. You could not have made my point more clearly for me.