CD 21 Zone

beachwear
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CD 21 Zone

Post by beachwear »

Probably the biggest Hot Topic in Kelowna Today. So being as I'm running for Mayor I figured I'd better spend some time with it. So I did. I've watched the replays of the Council Highlights, I've read the Blogs, I've downloaded the City's Memo's, I'm trying to find a copy of the Spaxman Report (If anybody knows where it is please let me know) I'm planning trip downtown tomorrow (after the Council Meeting) for a walkabout of the area, I read the Reports from proponents and from the opponents, I've read the media coverage...and I've discovered several things....

1. I have a headache

2. There's some key players that need more homework done on...Namely this Philip Milroy guy. I know he's a developer, but that's about it (so far). So my questions about him would be...what else has he developed, and what has the feedback been. Then I'd probably want to see some of his other work MYSELF...kinda like a credit check...kinda get to know what he's all about. I would also like to know who he's associated with...you know...that type of thing. But, if he is staight up, and he's done some excellent work in the past, then I don't think that his motive of making $$$ should be a big detriment

3. There's been a LOT of sincere efforts by a lot of sincere people to get this done. Much of the work that's been done so far on the surface looks quite thourough although without further checking I'm not totally convinced that what meets the eye might not be decieving.

4. How the HECK much money has been spent on this Monster so far? I'll be calling them in the next day or two to try and find out.

5. There's no magic bullet on this one, but from what I've seen, the name of it could use a do-over, the Key players need an informal sit down (all of them) and we should check out Mr. Milroys other projects and see if that's the type of thing we want for Kelowna.

Like most people I realize that the Downtown needs some work, but it's only about the end result, and how that benifits Kelowna....So I really can't tell whether I for it or against it at this point...only that it's costing WAY too much of your money and WAY too much time. But I'm still looking into it.

Cal
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grammafreddy
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Re: CD 21 Zone

Post by grammafreddy »

Have you read the CD21 thread here on CNet?

Just so ya know .... CD21 is dead - as in DEAD. No more. A non-issue now.

This is the replacement ... http://mydowntown.kelowna.ca/
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beachwear
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Re: CD 21 Zone

Post by beachwear »

Oh Great...I'll go grab some Tylenol...

When you say it's dead, you have to assume that alot of what went into it will be carried over to the new plan, otherwise the 21 previous variations were a complete waste of $$

Any rough idea's what the final bill was by the way?

You seem quite in touch with whats going on GF...I could either read up for a few hours ...but I'm not sure how much Tylenol I have left, is there any chance you could bring me up to speed? I can't pay you...but the Mayor's going to need some good advisors.

Thanks,

Cal
John500
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Re: CD 21 Zone

Post by John500 »

Millroy, Westcorp, has not done anything as far as development is concerned in Kelowna. He purchased property downtown, Willow inn, and made it a paved parking lot in anticipation of the CD21 being approved. He purchased Hiawatha Retirement Mobile home park and came up with a scenario to get rid of the long time residents at a fraction of the value of their homes. The park is now a real "trailer park". And if I am correct he did a city funded study with regards to the CD21 plan. But as far an actual development, nothing.
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grammafreddy
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Re: CD 21 Zone

Post by grammafreddy »

LOL - There were not 21 different versions of a downtown plan. Each comprehensive development plan has an ordered number. This one happened to be the 21st. The old high school property (Central Green) is CD22. CD23 is a proposed Public and Open-Air Market (with a residential component perhaps) at 2030 Benvoulin and 2130 Mayer Road.

The CD21 downtown plan was done by Milroy but not funded directly by the city. Milroy hired the planner and paid for it himself through his company. The city contributed to it with staff costs working with Milroy.

In many ways I feel sorry for Milroy. He originally started with a project called "Lawson's Landing" that failed when it got axed for approval by the Feds over water use issues with the lake. Then he came up with the hotel on the old Willow Inn site, which he had purchased. To help that site development approval along, he offered to fund a comprehensive new vision for the downtown (He also owns other property downtown - one of them is the building where FH&P is on the corner of Abbott and Lawrence).

Unfortunately, Milroy, his planner and the city failed to understand the people's desire to save the waterfront from commercial development and to save the Paramount Theatre, the old Bennett Hardware store and the other old heritage building next to it. The CD21 also failed to involve all land owners downtown - it just assumed everyone would approve of their vision and would be happy with 27-storey highrises down there. The Ministry of Highways also took far too long to do their part in the CD21 plan.

In the new downtown plan there are remnants of the CD21 because not everything in it was bad. But it saves the waterfront, it saves the heritage buildings downtown, it doesn't involve the extension of Mill Street and it does away with the big plaza at the corner where Abbott and Bernard join at the park.

The new plan encompasses the whole downtown area - not just the small CD21 part. It looks at bike paths and walkways, connecting routes, transportation and transit and highrises in a stepped way - keeping low buildings close to the lake and building higher away from the lake. The exception to that is Lawrence and Leon - the city did NOT follow the charrette guides to keep at least Lawrence on the north side (backing onto the heritage buildings on Bernard) at lower heights but allows for high towers of up to 20+ storeys.

However, to keep talking about the CD21 is just silly - it is dead, dead, dead. Most people haven't got a clue what it was all about, what it included and what it would have made the city core look like and the impact on the rest of the community. All they saw was high rise towers and somehow equated that with "progress" and "big city" and did not look into it any farther than that.
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beachwear
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Re: CD 21 Zone

Post by beachwear »

John500 wrote:Millroy, Westcorp, has not done anything as far as development is concerned in Kelowna. He purchased property downtown, Willow inn, and made it a paved parking lot in anticipation of the CD21 being approved. He purchased Hiawatha Retirement Mobile home park and came up with a scenario to get rid of the long time residents at a fraction of the value of their homes. The park is now a real "trailer park". And if I am correct he did a city funded study with regards to the CD21 plan. But as far an actual development, nothing.

Thanks for the info John. The further I go the steeper the learning curve.

Cal
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Re: CD 21 Zone

Post by EdCase »

CD21 keeps lurking as an issue in this election with Gray, FourChange and a number of candidates wanting to revive it. I think this earlier post by GrammaFreddy is worth re-reading to remind ourselves what's at stake here. The City has moved on; go and look at http://mydowntown.kelowna.ca/ to see what really is being done to get the revitalization of downtown moving forward.

grammafreddy wrote:LOL - There were not 21 different versions of a downtown plan. Each comprehensive development plan has an ordered number. This one happened to be the 21st. The old high school property (Central Green) is CD22. CD23 is a proposed Public and Open-Air Market (with a residential component perhaps) at 2030 Benvoulin and 2130 Mayer Road.

The CD21 downtown plan was done by Milroy but not funded directly by the city. Milroy hired the planner and paid for it himself through his company. The city contributed to it with staff costs working with Milroy.

In many ways I feel sorry for Milroy. He originally started with a project called "Lawson's Landing" that failed when it got axed for approval by the Feds over water use issues with the lake. Then he came up with the hotel on the old Willow Inn site, which he had purchased. To help that site development approval along, he offered to fund a comprehensive new vision for the downtown (He also owns other property downtown - one of them is the building where FH&P is on the corner of Abbott and Lawrence).

Unfortunately, Milroy, his planner and the city failed to understand the people's desire to save the waterfront from commercial development and to save the Paramount Theatre, the old Bennett Hardware store and the other old heritage building next to it. The CD21 also failed to involve all land owners downtown - it just assumed everyone would approve of their vision and would be happy with 27-storey highrises down there. The Ministry of Highways also took far too long to do their part in the CD21 plan.

In the new downtown plan there are remnants of the CD21 because not everything in it was bad. But it saves the waterfront, it saves the heritage buildings downtown, it doesn't involve the extension of Mill Street and it does away with the big plaza at the corner where Abbott and Bernard join at the park.

The new plan encompasses the whole downtown area - not just the small CD21 part. It looks at bike paths and walkways, connecting routes, transportation and transit and highrises in a stepped way - keeping low buildings close to the lake and building higher away from the lake. The exception to that is Lawrence and Leon - the city did NOT follow the charrette guides to keep at least Lawrence on the north side (backing onto the heritage buildings on Bernard) at lower heights but allows for high towers of up to 20+ storeys.

However, to keep talking about the CD21 is just silly - it is dead, dead, dead. Most people haven't got a clue what it was all about, what it included and what it would have made the city core look like and the impact on the rest of the community. All they saw was high rise towers and somehow equated that with "progress" and "big city" and did not look into it any farther than that.
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Re: CD 21 Zone

Post by EdCase »

Bellingham WA ha some interesting parallels with our downtown issues. Their website is worth a look http://www.cob.org/services/neighborhoods/community-planning/downtown/index.aspx
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Re: CD 21 Zone

Post by Logitack »

out of 10 responses on a question posed by @kelownaBiz on twitter,
“What do you believe will better serve downtown Kelowna, the current My Downtown Plan or the old CD21? Why?” I asked the candidates this question. I feel this is a vital component of this election and the future of downtown."
most everyone indicated they were in favor of the downtown plan.

Blanleil was the lone respondent with this comment...

andre_blanleil I was good with CD21 , but this plan is also good !! There aren’t that many changes. I still like the idea of a waterfront downtown hotel.
http://kelownabiz.com/?p=111


this guy just doesnt get it! He lost my vote!
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Re: CD 21 Zone

Post by Rwede »

Logitack wrote:this guy just doesnt get it! He lost my vote!



On that alone, or because he's a free enterpriser while you work at the union office? I would think philosophical differences between you two would be too far to bridge with any answer about CD21.
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Re: CD 21 Zone

Post by Pookybear »

Was just on http://www.savedowntownkelowna.com/?page_id=20 and they have questions poised to the candidates regarding the downtown core and one in regards to whether they would have supported CD-21. Good way to help gauge who you are going to vote for. No one that supported it or would have will get my vote.
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Re: CD 21 Zone

Post by Carmencat »

CD21 is far from dead. It is the reason Gray is running again, and the reason FourChange exists. Anyone who thinks that FourChange's dream council wouldn't bring it back - especially with the waterfront hotel - is dreaming.
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Re: CD 21 Zone

Post by Gilchy »

I don't understand why everyone hates the idea of development downtown so much...

Some facilities along the waterfront (restaurants, etc) would greatly increase tourist attraction and the local economy, IMO.
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Re: CD 21 Zone

Post by Carmencat »

Pookybear wrote:Was just on http://www.savedowntownkelowna.com/?page_id=20 and they have questions poised to the candidates regarding the downtown core and one in regards to whether they would have supported CD-21. Good way to help gauge who you are going to vote for. No one that supported it or would have will get my vote.


Thank you so much, Pookybear! That is exactly the information I have been looking for!!
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Re: CD 21 Zone

Post by Pookybear »

Gilchy wrote:I don't understand why everyone hates the idea of development downtown so much...

Some facilities along the waterfront (restaurants, etc) would greatly increase tourist attraction and the local economy, IMO.

I am not against the downtown core getting some development, I am however against anymore building on the lakefront. If we must have highrises put them toward the Richter end and leave the waterfront alone. We use the downtown core all the time to eat and shop and I tend to wonder how many of the people that keep complaining about the downtown being so bad actually use it. I think the pro developement side (fourchange for example) wants more money in their pockets and the average joe that wants it just wants someone to provide entertainment for them and think this will do it. That is what I got from reading some of the comments on the "save" Kelowna website.

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