Diabetes

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hozzle
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Re: Diabetes

Post by hozzle »

Silverstarqueen wrote: Apr 22nd, 2022, 12:53 pm People (who were not gluten intolerant) and who consumed up to 12 g of gluten based foods per day had less risk of T2 diabetes in a study:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... e-diabetes

So I would have to disagree with the statement " any gluten will affect healthy adults" in some adverse way.
Please no not edit my posts to suit your narrative, tyvm.
I did state the following:
Not exactly... there is scientific data that indicates any gluten will affect healthy adults, it can be exasperated by the consumption of excess lectin. Separately or combined, both can lead to leaky gut syndrome.
Here this may help you understand:
Gluten activates zonulin, the regulator of intestinal permeability. Several studies have shown that gluten can increase intestinal permeability and cause an immune response in the body. The immune system responds to substances it recognizes as harmful by causing inflammation.
and goes on to say...
One of these studies found that gluten activated zonulin in cells from individuals with and without celiac disease. However, zonulin levels were much higher in cells from people with celiac disease (14Trusted Source).
Here is the whole article:
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/gl ... e-response
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.
.
.

P.S. The article you linked, SSQ states:
Limitations of the study include its observational nature, which means that it cannot establish causality, and the fact that more research is needed to confirm the findings. Additionally, the researchers did not include data from those who have eliminated gluten from their diet completely.
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Silverstarqueen
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Silverstarqueen »

hozzle wrote: Apr 22nd, 2022, 1:31 pm
Silverstarqueen wrote: Apr 22nd, 2022, 12:53 pm People (who were not gluten intolerant) and who consumed up to 12 g of gluten based foods per day had less risk of T2 diabetes in a study:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... e-diabetes

So I would have to disagree with the statement " any gluten will affect healthy adults" in some adverse way.
Please no not edit my posts to suit your narrative, tyvm.
I did state the following:
Not exactly... there is scientific data that indicates any gluten will affect healthy adults, it can be exasperated by the consumption of excess lectin. Separately or combined, both can lead to leaky gut syndrome.
Here this may help you understand:
Gluten activates zonulin, the regulator of intestinal permeability. Several studies have shown that gluten can increase intestinal permeability and cause an immune response in the body. The immune system responds to substances it recognizes as harmful by causing inflammation.
and goes on to say...
One of these studies found that gluten activated zonulin in cells from individuals with and without celiac disease. However, zonulin levels were much higher in cells from people with celiac disease (14Trusted Source).
Here is the whole article:
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/gl ... e-response
.
.
.
.

P.S. The article you linked, SSQ states:
Limitations of the study include its observational nature, which means that it cannot establish causality, and the fact that more research is needed to confirm the findings. Additionally, the researchers did not include data from those who have eliminated gluten from their diet completely.
I was pointing out that I do not agree that "any gluten will affect healthy adults", which you said there was "scientific data" to support this.
the study you have a link to repeatedly states that the problems were noted in people who actually had a sensitivity to gluten and/or celiac disease.
This confirms my position as I stated it, that someone who does not notice any particular problem with gluten consumption does not need to avoid it. Many many people eat gluten based products without them causing any problem.
A quote from your article "Currently, no solid evidence supports the idea that gluten increases intestinal permeability or causes leaky gut in healthy people."
And:
The bottom line
Gluten causes significant health concerns in individuals with an intolerance or sensitivity.

Research shows gluten can increase intestinal permeability, also known as leaky gut, in people with celiac disease and possibly IBS.

However, this does not appear to be the case for people without these conditions.


It appears you did not read your own article.
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hozzle
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Re: Diabetes

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From my perspective you didn't read your article and you didn't read or understand the article I linked.
Last edited by hozzle on Apr 22nd, 2022, 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grandan
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Grandan »

Silverstarqueen wrote: Apr 22nd, 2022, 1:03 pm
Grandan wrote: Apr 21st, 2022, 12:44 pm
Well said. Leaky gut is a catastrophe and can lead to autoimmune diseases. Doctors miss diagnosing all sorts of diseases. My wife went to see her doctor with a sore toe. Her doctor sent her to a podiatrist who wanted to sell her a set of $400 inserts, my wife said no. She did some research and discovered it was gout. She had her doctor order a test and her Uric acid was sky high. She had to drop sugar and wine, her system couldn’t handle it. Younger women can handle it but as you get older your metabolism changes (estrogen levels drop) and previously benign substances can affect you differently.
Where was the connectionto gluten in her case of gout?
https://goutpal.info/gluten-and-uric-acid/
The connection to gluten is a bit convoluted. Because of my sensitivity to gluten my wife and daughter came up a scheme to develop gluten free bread and other baked goods. Soon my daughter was selling the baking like crazy. I had a wonderful time eating all that gluten free baking as was my wife, to a lesser extent. I had too easy access to the goods, the stuff that wasn’t quite up to snuff to sell. My wife bought me an expensive French waffle maker an I made gluten free waffles that we ate every morning lathered with honey or maple syrup. So that is partly how my wife ended up with high Uric acid and consequently gout.
So we ditched all those carbs and turned to a low carb diet.
So you also might want to check out carb addiction, it’s a real thing.
https://youtu.be/xGolIDo8Cvc
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Grandan
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Grandan »

I think it may be useful to define the actual percentages of carbohydrates in a low carb diet, where is nutritional ketosis in all this to help understand the science.
A lot of so called low carb diets are not that at all but are actually quite high. This graph is produced by Virta Health which is run by Jeff Volek one of the pioneers of the ketogenic diet and its use in marathon runners and triathletes.
D3414270-99C5-48F9-9497-38EA5A04B082.jpeg
I have seen similar graphs which include the Atkins diet which is fairly high in protein. A high protein diet will simply waste the protein through your urine as well as turn some to fat in a similar way that carbohydrates are converted to fat.
With diabetes which is the main topic of discussion here, it is insulin resistance that drives up the blood sugar. It can take decades before the problems appear from a poor diet. You don’t suddenly become type 2 diabetic, you move toward it progressively. So you can play around with various foods and combinations but unless you are hooked up to a continuous glucose monitor then you don’t know what is happening in your blood after you eat something. We know that a slice of bread can drive an insulin spike more than an equivalent amount of sucrose because the 50% of fructose molecules in that sucrose do not register in the blood, they go straight to the liver where they are turned to fat for storage.
It took many years of eating gluten for me to develop problems. It took me more time to realize that a high carbohydrate diet was also problematic for me. Some of the starches and gluten free flours I was eating caused a lot of weight gain although I did not have the gut issues that gluten or wheat had caused.
You may notice that the SAD diet is around 50% carbs and there is a correlation between the SAD diet and the incidence of obesity and metabolic syndrome which may well bankrupt the health care system world wide.
The thing that scared me straight was the link to Alzheimer’s and dementia which is being called diabetes of the brain, insulin resistance in the brain which causes a starvation for glucose in the brain. It takes insulin to drive glucose into brain cells. Insulin resistance slows that process or blocks it.
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Grandan
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Grandan »

Dr Paul Mason discusses Alzheimer’s disease and the implications of a high carbohydrate diet. He explains why dementia is also called type 3 diabetes and also produces the studies that prove that a ketogenic diet can improve brain function of those individuals who have been afflicted with dementia.

https://youtu.be/J_xu2zLlQAs

One of his references cited includes Dr Robert Lustig as one of the authors and his study showing that metabolic health can be rapidly improved by dramatically reducing fructose in the diet, yes quantifiable results.
I am a regular follower of Paul Mason and find him to be very well informed on all nutrition.
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Thinktank
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Re: Diabetes

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Silverstarqueen wrote: Apr 22nd, 2022, 12:53 pm People (who were not gluten intolerant) and who consumed up to 12 g of gluten based foods per day had less risk of T2 diabetes in a study:
the people averaged two teaspoons of flour a day? So 1/5 of a donut?

One solution would be to stay away from doctors, sugar, white flour, and food that is loaded with additives, and eat a huge organic salad every day.

"DO YOU EAT PROCESSED PACKAGED FOOD A LOT?"
Ultra-processed products refer to processing of substances derived from foods by e.g. baking
, frying
, extruding
, moulding, re-shaping, hydrogenation
and hydrolysis
. They generally include a large number of additives such as preservatives
, sweeteners
, sensory enhancers, colorants
, flavours and processing aids, but little or no whole food
. They may be fortified with micronutrients
. The aim is to create durable, convenient and palatable ready-to-eat or ready-to-heat food products suitable to be consumed as snacks or to replace freshly prepared food-based dishes and meals.
Image
^ that looks like dementia
If you have to be persuaded reminded bullied pressured bribed incentivized, lied to, guilt tripped, coerced, socially shamed, censored, threatened, paid, punished and criminalized, to gain your compliance- the thing is no good
Silverstarqueen
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Silverstarqueen »

Grandan wrote: Apr 22nd, 2022, 10:52 pm
Silverstarqueen wrote: Apr 22nd, 2022, 1:03 pm
Where was the connectionto gluten in her case of gout?
https://goutpal.info/gluten-and-uric-acid/
The connection to gluten is a bit convoluted. Because of my sensitivity to gluten my wife and daughter came up a scheme to develop gluten free bread and other baked goods. Soon my daughter was selling the baking like crazy. I had a wonderful time eating all that gluten free baking as was my wife, to a lesser extent. I had too easy access to the goods, the stuff that wasn’t quite up to snuff to sell. My wife bought me an expensive French waffle maker an I made gluten free waffles that we ate every morning lathered with honey or maple syrup. So that is partly how my wife ended up with high Uric acid and consequently gout.
So we ditched all those carbs and turned to a low carb diet.
So you also might want to check out carb addiction, it’s a real thing.
https://youtu.be/xGolIDo8Cvc
I agree carb addiction is a thing, never said it was not, but again, it doesn't affect everyone.
Cheeseburger addiction is also a thing, many people have great difficulty giving them up, the fat hit triggers all the right centers in the brain, etc. etc, brings people back day after day. Some people can hardly resist pizza.
Not too often you hear of someone addicted to soyburgers and salad, lol.
At any rate, just as with other addictions, some people have to use whatever means to get a grip on it, but unlike with tobacco or heroin, sooner or later we have to eat something. The best diet is the one which works for that person.
I also read a study not long ago that they figured there was a genetic influence on which diets worked better for certain people.
Technically you don't have to ditch carbs just because you are sensitive to gluten. Gluten isn't a carb anyway, it's a protein. So a person who was carb addicted could still eat gluten.
Silverstarqueen
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Silverstarqueen »

Thinktank wrote: Apr 23rd, 2022, 7:02 am
Silverstarqueen wrote: Apr 22nd, 2022, 12:53 pm People (who were not gluten intolerant) and who consumed up to 12 g of gluten based foods per day had less risk of T2 diabetes in a study:
the people averaged two teaspoons of flour a day? So 1/5 of a donut?

One solution would be to stay away from doctors, sugar, white flour, and food that is loaded with additives, and eat a huge organic salad every day.

"DO YOU EAT PROCESSED PACKAGED FOOD A LOT?"
Ultra-processed products refer to processing of substances derived from foods by e.g. baking
, frying
, extruding
, moulding, re-shaping, hydrogenation
and hydrolysis
. They generally include a large number of additives such as preservatives
, sweeteners
, sensory enhancers, colorants
, flavours and processing aids, but little or no whole food
. They may be fortified with micronutrients
. The aim is to create durable, convenient and palatable ready-to-eat or ready-to-heat food products suitable to be consumed as snacks or to replace freshly prepared food-based dishes and meals.
^ that looks like dementia
The were served 12 grams of gluten per day, foods vary a lot as to how much gluten they contain. 100 g. all purpose flour would have about 13g. of gluten, some flours have 70g gluten per 100g.
I don't know how many teaspoons of flour are in a bagel, but some are gluten free, some are not.
So whatever food they used (not necessarily a bagel) they got 12g of gluten not 12 grams of flour. a day.
I'm not sure what your point is.
Last edited by Silverstarqueen on Apr 24th, 2022, 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Silverstarqueen
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Re: Diabetes

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So a person converts excess protein to fat, and excess carbs to fat.
There seems to be something missing in the ketogenic graph. wouldn't excess fat also go to fat?
Why only graph the protein and carbs, when fat has to be substantial part of the diet if limiting carbs plus protein to x % of calories.
I am eating my fill on a variety of foods and not gaining weight. So I don't see the point in restricting the level of carbs in my diet.
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hozzle
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Re: Diabetes

Post by hozzle »

This is a thread about diabetes. I don't believe the intent was for weight loss, therefore low carb diets have been proven to be more effective in...
...HbA1c reductions, greater reductions in diabetes medication requirements, and in improvements in diurnal blood glucose stability and blood lipid profile, with no adverse renal effects, suggesting greater optimization of T2D management.
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Silverstarqueen
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Silverstarqueen »

So it becomes a question (in above study and most studies), of long term adherence (half the subjects dropped out), small sample size (only 63 left in the study after dropouts). Which is not surprising given the requirements were, to eat 75% (hypocaloric), exercise for an hour daily, and give up almost all carbohydrates in the diet, in exchange for a seemingly small change in diabetic medications, but no change in HbA1C. For some diabetics, that might seem worth while, for many, not so much, given that almost the same result was obtained, with just caloric reduction, and exercise, and retaining some carbohydrates in the diet. So the standar advice for years, to watch portion sized, weight control, exercise, and choose healthier carbohydrates, seems to be quite effective after all. Again either diet worked almost as well, proving my point that the human system is adaptable to various not-too processed dietary sources and macronutrient balances.Hardly a reason to give up entire food groups, as long as someone is eating healthy, and not overdoing it.
( I also noticed the protein content of the two diets was different, it would have been interesting if they had kept that constant in the two diets and just varied the carbs vs fats)
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hozzle
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Re: Diabetes

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Effects of an energy-restricted low-carbohydrate, high unsaturated fat/low saturated fat diet versus a high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet in type 2 diabetes: A 2-year randomized clinical trial
Aim: To examine whether a low-carbohydrate, high-unsaturated/low-saturated fat diet (LC) improves glycaemic control and cardiovascular disease (CVD) risk factors in overweight and obese patients with type 2 diabetes (T2D).
Conclusions: Both diets achieved comparable weight loss and HbA1c reductions. The LC sustained greater reductions in diabetes medication requirements, and in improvements in diurnal blood glucose stability and blood lipid profile, with no adverse renal effects, suggesting greater optimization of T2D management.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29178536/
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Grandan
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Grandan »

Silverstarqueen wrote: Apr 23rd, 2022, 3:59 pm So a person converts excess protein to fat, and excess carbs to fat.
There seems to be something missing in the ketogenic graph. wouldn't excess fat also go to fat?
Why only graph the protein and carbs, when fat has to be substantial part of the diet if limiting carbs plus protein to x % of calories.
I am eating my fill on a variety of foods and not gaining weight. So I don't see the point in restricting the level of carbs in my diet.
Fat does not raise insulin levels, proven. Saturated fat is not dangerous. Having too little fat raises the risk of cardiovascular events.
Just ask Paul Mason

https://youtu.be/NUY_SDhxf4k

There are explanations for why fat does not make you fat. Fat satisfies your hunger and you eat less and according to Mark Hyman fat makes you burn more calories.
https://drhyman.com/blog/2016/01/08/why ... e-you-fat/
Kevin Hall, from the National Institutes of Health, studies mathematical systems and biology. He found when you measure every ounce of food, every movement, every breath and every calorie burned, you find that those who ate more fat compared to an identical amount of carbs burned over 100 more calories a day. Over a year, that amounts to about a 10-pound weight loss from doing no more exercise.

Hall also reported studies on brain imaging and brain function that found eating more fat actually shuts off your brain’s hunger and craving centers. Eating healthy fats improves things like food intake, taste preferences and even your metabolism.

Dietary fat – again, higher in calories per gram than carbs or protein – can positively impact the whole calorie-burning process. It’s a mind bender, right?
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Silverstarqueen
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Silverstarqueen »

Grandan wrote: Apr 25th, 2022, 1:02 am
Silverstarqueen wrote: Apr 23rd, 2022, 3:59 pm So a person converts excess protein to fat, and excess carbs to fat.
There seems to be something missing in the ketogenic graph. wouldn't excess fat also go to fat?
Why only graph the protein and carbs, when fat has to be substantial part of the diet if limiting carbs plus protein to x % of calories.
I am eating my fill on a variety of foods and not gaining weight. So I don't see the point in restricting the level of carbs in my diet.
Fat does not raise insulin levels, proven. Saturated fat is not dangerous. Having too little fat raises the risk of cardiovascular events.
Just ask Paul Mason

https://youtu.be/NUY_SDhxf4k

There are explanations for why fat does not make you fat. Fat satisfies your hunger and you eat less and according to Mark Hyman fat makes you burn more calories.
https://drhyman.com/blog/2016/01/08/why ... e-you-fat/
Kevin Hall, from the National Institutes of Health, studies mathematical systems and biology. He found when you measure every ounce of food, every movement, every breath and every calorie burned, you find that those who ate more fat compared to an identical amount of carbs burned over 100 more calories a day. Over a year, that amounts to about a 10-pound weight loss from doing no more exercise.

Hall also reported studies on brain imaging and brain function that found eating more fat actually shuts off your brain’s hunger and craving centers. Eating healthy fats improves things like food intake, taste preferences and even your metabolism.

Dietary fat – again, higher in calories per gram than carbs or protein – can positively impact the whole calorie-burning process. It’s a mind bender, right?
I mentioned "excess" fat being converted to body fat (not included in the graph), you switch the conversation to "having too little fat" raising CV events (which it does). But no where have I suggested that was a great idea.
So we still have the problem of "too much fat" in excess of caloric requirements, to deal with.
"saturated fat is not dangerous", not what I was discussing. I was discussing "excess" fat.
What I was pointing out is that the graph that was presented accounted for carbs and protein, but ignored fat, which on a ketogenic diet makes up something like 80% of the calories, or, at the least, some relatively high level. Why then leave a major component of a diet out of the graph?
So "fat" doesn't make you fat, but carbs and proteins also don't make you fat, if eaten in balance with our energy needs.
So for most people that could be anywhere from 1600 to 2500 calories a day, depending on athleticism, ambient temperatures etc. This leaves a lot of room for a balance of protein, carbs, and fats. No reason why one needs to reduce carbs (or any nutrient) to "having to little". No where did I suggest that someone should eat "too little" fat. I still maintain that eating an "excess" of fat will go to fat in the body.
Unfortunately the study which showed only a small change in diabetic medications (did not mention participants getting completely off them), required 75% energy intake(causing a weight loss for both groups), an hour of excercise day(far more than most people do), so if one also had to seriously cut down on carbs, not everyone is willing to do all that indefinitely, and not everyone needs to do that. They could have had the carb included diet, and had almost the same result without the carb restriction. Again, it goes back to my point, which is that the human body is very adaptable, given two different diets with different balance in the nutrients, but of course healthy foods, not in excess of caloric needs.

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