Diabetes

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Grandan
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Grandan »

hozzle wrote: Apr 27th, 2022, 8:29 am
Silverstarqueen wrote: Apr 27th, 2022, 7:02 am )
Actually, he said that many foods containing polyunsaturates are healthy and "essential", meaning you need them. You have skipped his essential point, it's the incorrect processing of the oils, and frying or overcooking that destroys the benefits!

Thankgod he's saying that avocado and extra virgin avocado oils, flaxseeds, and those seeds and nuts with omega-6 and omega-3 in them(notice these are polyunsaturates?) are very healthy as part of a healthy diet. They contain essential oils, needed to produce healthy cell membranes. They are plant based.Unfortunately he gets far too technical and most people are not going to spend 15 min. listening to technical discussions before they get to that point. His point is the wrong method used to process the oils and using them as cooking oils can destroy these wonderful benefits. And unfortunately his long technical discussion has also destroyed the message, that healthy foods can be turned into unhealthy foods by frying them at higher temperatures. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Incidentally extra virgin olive oil, also has benefits which can be destroyed if the oils are overprocessed or overheated.
Now I think I'll go enjoy my guacamole on rye , and free-range scrambled eggs.
I'd rather believe the doctor than some unknown on a forum. Just sayin. Also I do not believe the original post missed any point, that is why he posted the video.
It takes some serious guts to stand up in front of a bunch of heath professionals and take on this issue head on. I have totally bought into his ideas. I watched this video a few years back and had been off seed oils for some time. I think I needed a refresher and Knobbe is the best.
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Silverstarqueen
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Silverstarqueen »

Wow, kind of obsessive to worry about healthy rye flour? (0% fat in the bread btw). Aren't you more concerned about the "polyunsaturated fat" in the guacamole? Don't take my word from it, even the long winded presenter in the video said it was the processing of the oils, not oils occuring naturally in seeds, avocados, nuts. But you won't take that if I say the same? lol.
"Rye bread and rye flour assist in regulation as well as improvement in blood glucose profile. The study was conducted on effects of rye in patients which was tested during breakfast meals. It was concluded that bran rye breads, whole grain rye products and endosperm rye flours improved glycemic profiles, improve sensitivity to insulin and stabilize insulin responses. It showed that rye flour helps to manage and reduce the chances of diabetes.

Lower inflammation
The study conducted on patients having metabolic syndrome were provided 12 week diet of pasta and rye. It showed better insulin responses after meal and lower inflammation in the body in comparison to 12 week diet of wheat bread, oats and potatoes. It lowered inflammation in metabolic syndrome patients which is helpful to lower the risk of diabetes.

Regulate genes
Everyone has certain genes in the body which makes person more naïve to various conditions, lifestyle and diet can convoy these genes to be down regulated. The study shows that when the oat-wheat-potato diet was replaced with rye products, it assist down regulate genes which could result to diabetes and other serious health problems. Research showed that patients with oat-wheat-potato diet have up-regulated genes related with negative health outcomes which make rye a better option."
Last edited by Silverstarqueen on Apr 27th, 2022, 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hozzle
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Re: Diabetes

Post by hozzle »

Forum dwellers like myself have opinions, both right ones and wrong ones... but to compare forum opinions vs credited professionals should be weighed carefully. I wouldn't expect anyone to heed my posts as gospel, but it should be open to conversation at the very least.
I'm made of rubber, you're made of glue. The garbage you say bounces off me and… oh, crap... then the powers that be censor me.
Grandan
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Grandan »

Silverstarqueen wrote: Apr 27th, 2022, 11:53 am Wow, kind of obsessive to worry about healthy rye flour? (0% fat in the bread btw). Aren't you more concerned about the "polyunsaturated fat" in the guacamole? Don't take my word from it, even the long winded presenter in the video said it was the processing of the oils, not oils occuring naturally in seeds, avocados, nuts. But you won't take that if I say the same? lol.
"Rye bread and rye flour assist in regulation as well as improvement in blood glucose profile. The study was conducted on effects of rye in patients which was tested during breakfast meals. It was concluded that bran rye breads, whole grain rye products and endosperm rye flours improved glycemic profiles, improve sensitivity to insulin and stabilize insulin responses. It showed that rye flour helps to manage and reduce the chances of diabetes.

Lower inflammation
The study conducted on patients having metabolic syndrome were provided 12 week diet of pasta and rye. It showed better insulin responses after meal and lower inflammation in the body in comparison to 12 week diet of wheat bread, oats and potatoes. It lowered inflammation in metabolic syndrome patients which is helpful to lower the risk of diabetes.

Regulate genes
Everyone has certain genes in the body which makes person more naïve to various conditions, lifestyle and diet can convoy these genes to be down regulated. The study shows that when the oat-wheat-potato diet was replaced with rye products, it assist down regulate genes which could result to diabetes and other serious health problems. Research showed that patients with oat-wheat-potato diet have up-regulated genes related with negative health outcomes which make rye a better option."
I don’t disagree whether you can lower inflammation with a rye diet or not but does it in the amounts that are meaningful?
Better insulin responses is not the same as best insulin response. The best protection against an insulin response is to cut carbohydrates to almost nothing as in the diet of Stefansson in the arctic who had to have himself locked up for 5 months in order to prove that he could live on nothing but meat and fat. Well you do go on about polyunsaturated fats, but I have never advocated eliminating them where they naturally occur in whole foods such as avocados of which I normally consume one large one per day. I only suggest that polyunsaturated seed oils be eliminated from the diet as they are pro inflammatory. I am also not a meat and fat advocate as was Stefansson:

https://youtu.be/Hs0zzox
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Grandan
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Grandan »

hozzle wrote: Apr 27th, 2022, 12:01 pm Forum dwellers like myself have opinions, both right ones and wrong ones... but to compare forum opinions vs credited professionals should be weighed carefully. I wouldn't expect anyone to heed my posts as gospel, but it should be open to conversation at the very least.
I know it can be very confusing to read or watch videos of totally opposing views of the same topic. I am seeing more and more Doctors linking up with podcasts and interviews to discuss more recent data and studies which really helps cement the concepts.
I have noticed that some nutritionists are not up to date on the latest scientific data and are peddling concepts that have been disproven.
KGH is still serving low fat yogurt and margarine despite the fact that both have not shown to be of any benefit to patients.
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Fancy
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Fancy »

Grandan wrote: Apr 27th, 2022, 6:50 pm ...KGH is still serving low fat yogurt and margarine despite the fact that both have not shown to be of any benefit to patients.
Doubt that has anything to do with anything but costs and no desire to change the menu.
Truths can be backed up by facts - do you have any?
Fancy this, Fancy that and by the way, T*t for Tat
Grandan
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Grandan »

059FA7C3-EAD3-4D66-9620-6FD95A199328.png
Stephen Phinney is the Grandaddy of the ketogenic diet movement. I have heard it said that there is some kind of equivalence for weight loss between the Low Fat Diet (LFD) and the Low Carb Diet (LCD). According to Phinney, the subjects lost twice as much weight on a LCD as did the subjects did on a LFD. The subjects were members of the campus police. The second graph shows the details of the actual weight loss To get the full picture, watch the video. He goes into detail about how the ketogenic diet was used as a treatment for Diabetes prior to the invention of insulin. He also notes that some blood markers take some time to turn around so some patience is needed. He goes on to explain how diabetes was reversed in about 55 % of patients who had an average BMI of 41 and weighed some 250 pounds.
Blood glucose was brought into normal range in the test subjects who had been diabetic on average for 8.5 years while the control subject did not. This is a must view video for anyone who has diabetes and is interested in reversing it. They have developed an app to help patients through the process.
https://youtu.be/Hs0zzox-TF0
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Silverstarqueen
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Silverstarqueen »

A study of over 15,400 participants over 25 years. All cause mortality lower in people on a plant based diet with moderate carb intake (50%-65%) as opposed to low carb intake. Projected life expectancy at 50 on average about10% longer!
"The median length of follow-up was 25 years, during which there were 6283 deaths. The highest risk of mortality was observed in participants with the lowest carbohydrate consumption, in both unadjusted and adjusted models (p<0·001; figure 1; appendix p 8). However, the relationship between carbohydrate consumption and risk of mortality was significantly nonlinear (p<0·001), resulting in a U-shaped association, with the lowest observed risk associated with carbohydrate consumption of 50–55% (figure 1). There were corresponding significant differences in mean residual lifespan based on carbohydrate intake (appendix p 2). For example, we estimated that a 50-year-old participant with intake of less than 30% of energy from carbohydrate would have a projected life expectancy of 29·1 years, compared with 33·1 years for a participant who consumed 50–55% of energy from carbohydrate (difference 4·0 years [95% CI 2·6, 5·3]). Similarly, we estimated that a 50-year-old participant with high carbohydrate intake (>65% of energy from carbohydrate) would have a projected life expectancy of 32·0 years, compared with 33·1 years for a participant who consumed 50–55% of energy from carbohydrate (difference 1·1 years [0·1, 2·0]). We did a sensitivity analysis using 50–60% energy from carbohydrate as the comparison group, with similar findings (data not shown). The association of overall carbohydrate intake with cardiovascular and non-cardiovascular mortality is shown in the appendix (pp 3, 4). There were similar results when we used dietary information from Visit 1 and Visit 3 in the sensitivity analysis (appendix pp 5, 6)."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6339822/
Silverstarqueen
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Silverstarqueen »

Five risk factors in childhood, predict cardiovascular events in adulthood.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35373933/
Grandan
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Grandan »

Silverstarqueen wrote: Apr 28th, 2022, 8:16 am A study of over 15,400 participants over 25 years. All cause mortality lower in people on a plant based diet with moderate carb intake (50%-65%) as opposed to low carb intake. Projected life expectancy at 50 on average about10% longer!
"The median length of follow-up was 25 years, during which there were 6283 deaths. The highest risk of mortality was observed in participants with the lowest carbohydrate consumption, in both unadjusted and adjusted models (p<0·001; figure 1; appendix p 8). However, the relationship between carbohydrate consumption and risk of mortality was significantly nonlinear (p<0·001), resulting in a U-shaped association, with the lowest observed risk associated with carbohydrate consumption of 50–55% (figure 1). There were corresponding significant differences in mean residual lifespan based on carbohydrate intake (appendix p 2). For example, we estimated that a 50-year-old participant with intake of less than 30% of energy from carbohydrate would have a projected life expectancy of 29·1 years, compared with 33·1 years for a participant who consumed 50–55% of energy from carbohydrate (difference 4·0 years [95% CI 2·6, 5·3]). Similarly, we estimated that a 50-year-old participant with high carbohydrate intake (>65% of energy from carbohydrate) would have a projected life expectancy of 32·0 years, compared with 33·1 years for a participant who consumed 50–55% of energy from carbohydrate (difference 1·1 years [0·1, 2·0]). We did a sensitivity analysis using 50–60% energy from carbohydrate as the comparison group, with similar findings (data not shown). The association of overall carbohydrate intake with cardiovascular and non-cardiovascular mortality is shown in the appendix (pp 3, 4). There were similar results when we used dietary information from Visit 1 and Visit 3 in the sensitivity analysis (appendix pp 5, 6)."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6339822/
Any study that does not strictly control the diet by providing the food and controlling for just one variable is not very reliable. Studies that rely on a questionnaire to determine intake of various foods does not tell you enough about the participants eating habits to be reliable at all. Participants are relying on memory and estimates of portion size from a photo example is questionable.
Also one needs to control for the oils and fats because there is such a huge range of options. Deep frying in canola oil is going to give you a different outcome than broiling on a bbq at home.
We know from observing millions of Americans that the SAD diet is causing metabolic syndrome and nationwide the calculus can be done to equate food production with intake of those foods.
A high carbohydrate diet is not likely to be good for you unless those high carbohydrate foods happen to be purple sweet potatoes and and low intake of fructose.
Studies where the food is weighed and standardized is a better way to do it but I can understand why they did what they did It is meta analysis to try to identify trends.
Did you read the whole article? There were so many variables I couldn’t keep anything straight. They seemed to weed out the people with heart attacks.
I would go so far as to suggest that the study is meaningless based on the total lack of control over food intake. I much prefer the methodology of Stephen Phinney who is not using outrageously high carbohydrate diets instead restricting carbohydrates to around 10% instead of 30% which is too high to get you into ketosis. The benefit of a low carbohydrate diet comes when the patient can get into a state of ketosis.
As has been stated earlier the saturated fats from butter, lard and beef fat seemed to not cause the diseases that arise from vegetable seed oils. Animal fat is what humans ate for thousands of years, not polyunsaturated seed oils.
I hope you took the time to listen to Knobbe. He links those seed oils to the rise in all modern diseases of metabolic syndrome.
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Grandan
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Grandan »

Silverstarqueen wrote: Apr 28th, 2022, 2:02 pm Five risk factors in childhood, predict cardiovascular events in adulthood.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35373933/
Can’t disagree.
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Grandan
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Grandan »

Silverstarqueen wrote: Apr 28th, 2022, 2:02 pm Five risk factors in childhood, predict cardiovascular events in adulthood.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35373933/
Lustig would say that excess sugar was to of list.
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Silverstarqueen
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Silverstarqueen »

Grandan wrote: Apr 27th, 2022, 6:50 pm
hozzle wrote: Apr 27th, 2022, 12:01 pm Forum dwellers like myself have opinions, both right ones and wrong ones... but to compare forum opinions vs credited professionals should be weighed carefully. I wouldn't expect anyone to heed my posts as gospel, but it should be open to conversation at the very least.
I know it can be very confusing to read or watch videos of totally opposing views of the same topic. I am seeing more and more Doctors linking up with podcasts and interviews to discuss more recent data and studies which really helps cement the concepts.
I have noticed that some nutritionists are not up to date on the latest scientific data and are peddling concepts that have been disproven.
KGH is still serving low fat yogurt and margarine despite the fact that both have not shown to be of any benefit to patients.
Link to any evidence as to why a hospital should not serve low fat yogurt or margarine?
incidentally b.c. and canada have regulations about trans fatty acids in foods, if you are worried about them, or if someone just wanted to limit the fat in their diet, they can just not use the margarine.
Trans fat comes in two forms: naturally occurring in ruminant meat (i.e., beef, lamb, sheep, bison) and dairy products; and industrially produced, formed during partial hydrogenation, a process used to harden and stabilize liquid vegetable oils.
No difference:
Effects of margarines and butter consumption on lipid profiles, inflammation markers and lipid transfer to HDL particles in free-living subjects with the metabolic syndrome
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20648041/
Trans fats in meat and dairy:
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/trans- ... and-dairy/
Now I am not saying, don't eat meat and dairy, but you have to wonder which industry is supporting large intakes of foods which contain probably more trans fat than non-trans fat plant based foods.
Grandan
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Grandan »

If you bothered to watch the video by Knobbe you might get some idea that seed oils, from which margarine is made, is not a good product to put in you body. I have no doubt that you can find numerous articles likely supported by industry that shows that it is safe.
As far as the yogurt goes, the fat was taken out and sugar replaced the fat to make it palatable. I prefer to eat plain unsweetened full fat yogurt myself but to each his own.
I see no point in sending any information that supports any of this because you don’t bother to watch the videos or read the article anyway.
Industry has done a great sales job convincing people that their products a safe. Doctors don’t get any money from pointing you to good health, they need the repeat customer who is sick all the time.
The information is out there. I have recommended numerous books and videos to help gain some perspective but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.
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Silverstarqueen
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Re: Diabetes

Post by Silverstarqueen »

Grandan wrote: Apr 28th, 2022, 5:41 pm
Silverstarqueen wrote: Apr 28th, 2022, 8:16 am A study of over 15,400 participants over 25 years. All cause mortality lower in people on a plant based diet with moderate carb intake (50%-65%) as opposed to low carb intake. Projected life expectancy at 50 on average about10% longer!
"The median length of follow-up was 25 years, during which there were 6283 deaths. The highest risk of mortality was observed in participants with the lowest carbohydrate consumption, in both unadjusted and adjusted models (p<0·001; figure 1; appendix p 8). However, the relationship between carbohydrate consumption and risk of mortality was significantly nonlinear (p<0·001), resulting in a U-shaped association, with the lowest observed risk associated with carbohydrate consumption of 50–55% (figure 1). There were corresponding significant differences in mean residual lifespan based on carbohydrate intake (appendix p 2). For example, we estimated that a 50-year-old participant with intake of less than 30% of energy from carbohydrate would have a projected life expectancy of 29·1 years, compared with 33·1 years for a participant who consumed 50–55% of energy from carbohydrate (difference 4·0 years [95% CI 2·6, 5·3]). Similarly, we estimated that a 50-year-old participant with high carbohydrate intake (>65% of energy from carbohydrate) would have a projected life expectancy of 32·0 years, compared with 33·1 years for a participant who consumed 50–55% of energy from carbohydrate (difference 1·1 years [0·1, 2·0]). We did a sensitivity analysis using 50–60% energy from carbohydrate as the comparison group, with similar findings (data not shown). The association of overall carbohydrate intake with cardiovascular and non-cardiovascular mortality is shown in the appendix (pp 3, 4). There were similar results when we used dietary information from Visit 1 and Visit 3 in the sensitivity analysis (appendix pp 5, 6)."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6339822/
Any study that does not strictly control the diet by providing the food and controlling for just one variable is not very reliable. Studies that rely on a questionnaire to determine intake of various foods does not tell you enough about the participants eating habits to be reliable at all. Participants are relying on memory and estimates of portion size from a photo example is questionable.
Also one needs to control for the oils and fats because there is such a huge range of options. Deep frying in canola oil is going to give you a different outcome than broiling on a bbq at home.
We know from observing millions of Americans that the SAD diet is causing metabolic syndrome and nationwide the calculus can be done to equate food production with intake of those foods.
A high carbohydrate diet is not likely to be good for you unless those high carbohydrate foods happen to be purple sweet potatoes and and low intake of fructose.
Studies where the food is weighed and standardized is a better way to do it but I can understand why they did what they did It is meta analysis to try to identify trends.
Did you read the whole article? There were so many variables I couldn’t keep anything straight. They seemed to weed out the people with heart attacks.
I would go so far as to suggest that the study is meaningless based on the total lack of control over food intake. I much prefer the methodology of Stephen Phinney who is not using outrageously high carbohydrate diets instead restricting carbohydrates to around 10% instead of 30% which is too high to get you into ketosis. The benefit of a low carbohydrate diet comes when the patient can get into a state of ketosis.
As has been stated earlier the saturated fats from butter, lard and beef fat seemed to not cause the diseases that arise from vegetable seed oils. Animal fat is what humans ate for thousands of years, not polyunsaturated seed oils.
I hope you took the time to listen to Knobbe. He links those seed oils to the rise in all modern diseases of metabolic syndrome.
They didn't use outrageously high carbohydrate diets, in fact they pointed out that 50-60% was the sweet spot, better than a higher intake, and considerably better than a much lower intake. If memory is a bad thing to rely on, why would the memories of eating 50% carbs be so much more helpful for cardiac health, than those who remember eating far less carbohydrate? The carbs are likely an indicator for levels of animal products in the diet, since higher levels of carbs are found in plant products (whether they are nuts, breads, or vegetables, or fruit or potatoes, and would have incidentally included somewhat more plant based oils rather than animal fats). That doesn't mean people necessarily ate no animal products, it's quite possible to eat healthy plant based foods (containing some 50% carbs), and still include fish, meat, chicken, beef etc.
There are many people who eat vegetarian diets for many years, their whole lives, so they can say, with some accuracy the amounts of whole grain, seeds, fruit , vegetables they eat from day to day. I see no reason to doubt them when they outline their diet like that. People who eat a high animal based diet, can probably outline with some accuracy how much of their diet is meat, dairy, eggs, or whether they include sometimes breads or cereals, vegetables or fruits or not. There are very few studies which meticulously control every bite that the participants eat for25 years.
Since there was a significant difference, there's no reason to reject the study out of hand.
People have indeed eating polyunsaturated seed oils for thousands of years, even primates in the jungle will eat nuts, even ancient humans who migrated out of africa showed evidence of eating seeds, and vegetation, roots. People can eat a substantial amount of nuts and not seem to gain weight over weeks and months. This seems to indicate then that the vegetable oils in them do not contribute to diabetes. So although humans likely hunted some animals, even birds or rodents, that doesn't mean they didn't also eat plant foods, seeds or nuts. Do you really think humans in ancient survival conditions would have turned down sunflower seeds, or pumpkin seeds, or walnuts if they found them?
Yes a state of ketosis is an interesting fact of biology, but it wasn't necessarily used by most ancient humans, even in their natural state. Diabetes is a fairly new phenomenon, so what was preventing most humans from developing diabetes before the last few centuries, and particularly the last several decades when it has become even more prevalent? Why was diabetes so rare a thousand years ago, when a lot of humans were eating a varied ominivorous diet?

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