Promise of Return of the Old Logo

[Rwede]

As a graphic and web designer with extensive experience in online marketing, I can say without a doubt that the City of Kelowna paid WAY too much for their new logo (regardless of how much market research and promotion was included in the seriously inflated pricetag of approx $80K) and that it has left a sour taste in the taxpayers mouth as another example of frivolous spending.

Yeah, I agree, what a waste of taxpayers' money. Nothing like the $3 billion waste of taxpayers' money that you helped promulgate with your local anti-HST campaign though.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

[jfeves]

I brand people for a living, and believe me. People in general have next to no knowledge of the work it takes to make a new identity. There seems to be this thought pattern among business owners in our region that you can go online, crowdsource a logo or buy something stock and you're set for life for the small price tag of $100-$300, or even worse... They think that because they have a pirated version of photoshop, they can take their own crack at it with arial and basic shapes.

Well let me tell you this... $10,000 for the initial design is not ACTUALLY a lot of money spent on a rebrand for what is in essence, a 93 million dollar a year business. Say the designers billing rate is $80/hr , and he's working independently and let's break it into simple math.

$10,000 / $80 = 125 (hours) ... That's how much time he has to work with.

Now let's take into account that large branding projects and rebrands will have 20-40 hours allocated to research time alone. Research for a city is much different than your average brand, as outshining the competition and standing out doesn't rely on your products or corporate image, so we'll simply say 20 hours allocated to research to ensure uniqueness, and to nail down every nook and cranny.

Preparing a proper proposal to bid on the job, client interviews and the briefing process... For Kelowna, I will assume that there was AT LEAST 30 hours in meetings, briefs, overviews, and preparing the proper paperwork.

Now we get to the part where the designer actually gets to create. Each logo concept, with unique/customized typography and a symbol takes about three hours to prepare from paper to illustrator, with a proper explanation of the design. This is assuming the designer is picky, and knows his work. The City of Kelowna probably got 15 finalized concepts to choose from... So that's another 45 hours.

We're now at a total of 90 hours of the 125 hours allocated to the project... Let's now make the assumption that they were picky, and wanted revisions the 5 concepts they liked. A lot of revisions, and put in another 15 hours until it got to the point where EVERYONE could agree on the final logo. It's just the way a large organization (city in this case) works.

That brings us to 105 hours...

The final hours are spent making a logo guide so that the designer can provide ALL file types, the proper color codes, and proper file usage per application. From there you make all the stationary (business card templates, letterheads, etc.)

Now it's out of the designers hands, unless they require more design work with the logo for labels/signage/whatever their needs are.

Hope this provides a little bit of insight... Don't get me started on hard print costs.

[dbthorburn]

Yeah, I agree, what a waste of taxpayers' money. Nothing like the $3 billion waste of taxpayers' money that you helped promulgate with your local anti-HST campaign though.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Not sure where you get your facts from. The HST was going to cost BC taxpayers $3B a year for the rest of our lives. Getting rid of it has saved us from assured enslavement to an illegitimate government policy and unfair taxation. Do your own research, every country that has implemented an HST / VAT is broke and their tax rate has been hiked to above 20%. Europe is in the death throes of a failed economic union that has been based around crippling VAT taxes that have driven their economies totally underground. Also, do some research within your own country. Saskatchewan has a booming economy and they were only able to achieve this after the voters in their province chose to elect a new provincial government about 20 years ago that reversed the HST which had been forced upon them in the 80's. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.

Even the majority of voters in Ontario are now in favour of getting rid of the HST. But wait, weren't we told that the HST was great for Ontario? Stop getting your news from the tv and from corporate lobbyists who own provincial and federal politicians, and instead take a walk outside and open your eyes, try TALKING to people who are adversely affected by the tax because they are the ones who provide you with the quality of life that you take for granted.

The HST was an assualt on our rights, not to mention it is illegal. Find me one shred of CONSTITUTIONAL documenation that gives the federal government the legal authority to collect direct taxes. There is none. Canada does not have a constitution (an Act or Statute is not a constitution, get a oujia board and go ask Trudeau yourself - Quebec never ratified it in 82 so it is NOT a constitution), and as such there is no such thing as a federal union or legitimate federal government. We are simply a collection of independant provinces and as such the collective legislation (which likes to refer to itself as the federal government) has no right to collect direct taxes. Same goes for CRA, a totally illegal organization that uses fear and intimidation to scare people into turning over their income when they do not need to. I'm not saying that we shouldn't pay taxes, but under our current status of government (or lack of) the only legislative assemblies that are legally entitled to collect taxes (sales, income, property) are the provincial governments. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE! DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH! Ask someone in Alberta, they seem to have a better grip on reality when it comes to dealing with the feds.

Ask a constitutional lawyer and they will confirm this as fact. But don't take my word for it, go do your own research. If you choose not to, then keep your baseless accusations to yourself. You're part of the problem and the only solution is for the majority of concerned citizens to stand up and fight for their rights. That's what we did in 2010 and 2011. You had a chance to voice your opinion and vote on the matter. Majority rules and that's what Direct Democracy is about.

Don't like it, move to North Korea.

[Gilchy]

I'll continue the off-topic ramblings for one more post.

^Are you familiar with Common Law, the basis for the British legal and government system from which Canada descended?

[dbthorburn]

Preparing a proper proposal to bid on the job, client interviews

If you charge your clients for the time that you spend on building proposals and interviewing with them to win the contract, then you may not want to publicize that too loudly.

I have scores of world-class graphic designers (with legitimate copies of Illustrator backed by decades of design experience) who would be more than happy to design a professional corporate logo for a $93/year business or $93million/year business at a fraction of the cost of what Kelowna has paid.

On average, a logo design, corporate branding and even base marketing material package, competitive designers should come in at (with multiple design options no less) around $2500 to $5000. Anything more and it's gouging.

Anyone that can't produce a tangible deliverable in 10-20 hours of design time (@ $80/hour no less) obviously isn't doing it right, or they're padding their hours. Either way, it's an example of wasteful spending on the city's part.

[dbthorburn]

I'll continue the off-topic ramblings for one more post.

^Are you familiar with Common Law, the basis for the British legal and government system from which Canada descended?

Yes I am.

Have you personally read the 1864 Quebec Resolutions, the 1867 British North America Act, the 1931 Westminster Statute and the 1982 Constitution Act?

[jfeves]

I have scores of world-class graphic designers (with legitimate copies of Illustrator backed by decades of design experience) who would be more than happy to design a professional corporate logo for a $93/year business or $93 million/year business at a fraction of the cost of what Kelowna has paid.

Anyone could do it for $2,500 - $5,000 and do a damn good job. Hell there's freelancers in this city that could do it for $1,000 and yield a better result, but that's not the point... The point is working on a large project that has to go through a lot of bureaucracy is a lot different than your average identity project.

There's a reason when large reputable firms tackle these kind of jobs (look at a GAP rebrand case study, or the KRAFT corporate rebrand) there is a HUGE price tag involved, and most of it doesn't involve the ACTUAL work to make the image, typeface, or anything else. Not saying Kelowna is on the same scale, but we're about 1/100th of it, which puts the price tag as cheap ;)

I personally don't know how the man at Splash tackled the project, nor do I care or think he was the right man for the job (he really wasn't, probably had a connection that us other folks don't). I'm just trying to put it into perspective that it really isn't that big of an expense in the long run compared to projects of a similar scale, and it was priced reasonably considering the size of the city's budget.

I hear less people complaining about $50,000 + sculptures that are atrocious, and most people never even look at over the $10,000 logo that is constantly in our eyes.

[Gilchy]

I'll continue the off-topic ramblings for one more post.

^Are you familiar with Common Law, the basis for the British legal and government system from which Canada descended?

Yes I am.

Have you personally read the 1864 Quebec Resolutions, the 1867 British North America Act, the 1931 Westminster Statute and the 1982 Constitution Act?

Yup! Policitcal Science degrees introduce you to all manner of insomnia cures.

Too lazy to type out full response, here's a brief counter point: http://thelongrunblog.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/is-canadian-income-tax-unconstitutional-hint-no/

Or, take the Canadian Taxpayers Federation's word for it (and those guys hate taxes): http://taxpayer.com/campaigns-and-issues/special-interest/are-income-taxes-illegal

[dbthorburn]

Keep going off topic, the moderators will have the final say.

Here's a quote from the CTF website:

it is not surprising that under the Constitution

Unfortunately, the CTF needs to revise their wording because they are referring to the 1982 Constitution Act as the Constitution which unfortunately, it is NOT. An Act or a Statute CANNOT be a Constitution. DO YOU OWN RESEARCH. I have spoken to members of the CTF, actually had them sitting in roundtable discussions in my living room and they have also confirmed what I am saying.

Canada does NOT have a Constitution, it has a defacto status quo which it has been at an impasse since the 1867 BNA Act and never gotten past. Trudeau tried, and failed. We have a whole slate of laws and legislation that is based on the assumption that maybe one day we MAY have a constitution, but until then it's business as usual, which unfortunately is illegitimate and run by corrupt politicians who want to keep it that way.

I hope that the people of Canada will one day wake up to the hoodwink over their eyes and decide to fight for true liberty. Whether or not they do is up to them. I for one will continue to press the issue and challenge ANYONE to prove me wrong by delivering a CERTIFIED COPY of the CONSTITUTION OF CANADA to the SUPREME COURT OF CANADA. Till then, stop referring to apples as oranges.

[FunkyBunch]

Well Mr. Thorburn.
You have made an assumption that the facts of the matter, are more important than the matter itself.
Most people don't care about the constitutionality of the HST (if it's even possible for it to be unconstitutional, since according to you we don't have a constitution so how can something be against it?).
A large percentage of the voters were misinformed in regards to the HST and it's consequences. On top of the 3 billion dollar hole it blew into our budget. People were rightly *bleep* off about how it was brought into place (I was one of those people).
It was still a good idea.

You can't compare the economies of the countries with the VAT/HST system to ours. Most of those countries are having trouble, not because of the tax system but because their governments were spending like drunken sailors or were connected to governments who were spending like drunken sailors.

Everyone I talked to who was against the HST was misinformed in both associated costs to them and exemptions currently in place for the HST. After careful explanation most people were convinced of its merits.

But that's another issue. To me, you're one who looks at the rules and instead of asking how to make them better (which is what a politician should do) vehemently protest any changing of the status quo.

[ScottRoss]

DbThorburn, Canada has a constitution. That constitution, which includes the 1982 document, is the basis of this country, this province, and this city. In all due respect, how can you question the integrity of our foundational document, the same document that establishes our country and our province, for it through that document that the office you are seeking is given legitimacy and ultimately authority?

[Cumungala]

I dont think they should bring back the old logo at this point. They've already painted the new logo on many of the city vehicles and we're not the only city that has changed its logo.

[dieselDaryl]

Been there done that. history. I don't care what your opinion is on the logo, we have WAY more important issues to deal with. As for it 'not costing anything' if it's phased out over years, I don't buy that.

Shane comes across as a well-spoken guy but does that issue REALLY belong in the top 3 of your platform? or even top 10? 20?

[richardtaylor1973]

The return of the old logo can be done at zero cost to the taxpayers.

Shane - some open and honest advice from a career communications and branding professional:

You came across as a seriously credible, informed and qualified candidate at last night's forum. However, the statement above is sheer fantasy. It may have no external cost to the City of Kelowna - but it will take significant time within City Hall. The taxpayer pays for those individuals. So your statement is fiction. That seriously damages your credibility.

Daniel - graphic and web design is a small component of strategic brand development and management. Just as bookkeeping is a small component of strategic financial planning and management and food preperation is a small component of running a restaurant.

A strategic rebrand was badly needed by the City of Kelowna and is one of the (unfortunately few) positives of the last few years.

The unfortunate and coincidental similarity to Sunhaven is just that. An unfortunate coincidence. Phred Martin is a professional with absolute integrity and those that say/said otherwise should back up what they have said / are saying with something other than the Sunhaven logo.

Richard Taylor (Twitter: @rtaylor)

[Roberts and Braun]

I have to be honest, when I first saw Herrington wanted to change back to the old logo I thought there were far bigger fish to fry. I wonder of in hindsite he wishes he had not mentioned that and rather brought it forward later if he gets elected. I trust he is correct when he says it can be done at little or zero cost.

In any event, when you look at all the issues and his experience, Shane I think would be a great councillor