Options for dealing with crime and drug use

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steven lloyd
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

Post by steven lloyd »

-fluffy- wrote:So, in order to deal effectively with "them", we have to first fix "us".

Wow - I wish I had said that. :wink:
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

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One of the biggest problems facing us here is that the "good" guys, being the police, et al, are really the bad guys, and they are an entrenched industry and machine that would become irrelevant and unemployed if drugs were decriminalized. They are not in favour, and they are powerful. Our politicians have never really tested what side the majority of the population is on, criminalization or decriminalization, so we continue with status quo or (ref. Stephen Harper and Vancouver's injection site) drifting backwards. Tough on crime, yes, but let's make sure the crimes we're tough on are ones we all or most agree with. Many crimes are really politics using the apparatus of law and enforcement to deal with something that a sector of society doesn't like or disbelieves in; abortion comes to mind. Prohibition in the 1920s? Drinking temporarily became a crime??? But it isn't now?

As they say follow the money. The ones wanting to keep drugs criminalized are the ones profiting: the producers, dealers, et al, and the law enforcement industry. Our politicians aren't representing us.
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fluffy
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

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I don't agree that that's the biggest problem. If society in general took the view that addicts were folks like you and me that have fallen victim to a disease and worked to help instead of ostracize the picture would be different. I was diagnosed type 2 diabetic a few years back. As soon as that happened I was showered with freebies in the form of equipment, medication and education without even having to ask for it. What do we do for alcoholics and addicts? Our government closes treatment facilities and cuts funding for education and support. And we make it easy for them because we don't care about the marginalized and downtrodden.
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Lady tehMa
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

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Truth be told, I've never been threatened by a diabetic.

Perhaps society would be more willing to give a hand up to the addicted if they weren't so inclined to bite it.
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fluffy
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

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I think what I'm trying to say is that the way society treats these people is playing a big part in their difficulty in overcoming their problems.
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Lady tehMa
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

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A lot of times society treats them they way they do, is because of the pain of past experience and the fear of future experience. That is where I am sitting.

A person who has been repeatedly bit by dogs, and has family who were savaged by dogs, will develop a fear and distrust of dogs. How do you propose to change that? Especially if they still bite?
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steven lloyd
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

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Lady tehMa wrote:Truth be told, I've never been threatened by a diabetic.

With all due respect, that is exactly the point you are missing

Lady tehMa wrote: How do you propose to change that?

Hopefully, by encouraging people to understand what a stereotype is.
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Lady tehMa
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

Post by Lady tehMa »

Stereotypes exist for a reason.

You are telling me that my past experience is not a valid place to work from, but it is the only one I've got. Just like I've learned that if you touch fire you get burned, drugged up criminals cause me and mine harm. Can you make the past go away? Will you tell a victim of abuse to get over it because the past doesn't matter?

Telling me my viewpoint is wrong is not a helpful in changing that viewpoint.
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Lady tehMa
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

Post by Lady tehMa »

steven lloyd wrote:With all due respect, that is exactly the point you are missing


Regarding this, I would submit that you are missing the point. I have personal experience that says "this is scary/bad/not-to-be-trusted".

I have never had a bad experience with a diabetic. They don't threaten you on the street. Every single diabetic I have known has been a person who could and would follow the rules of society, and acted for the general good of society. Drug addicts/Criminals don't.
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steven lloyd
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

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Lady tehMa wrote: Stereotypes exist for a reason.

Yes, stereotypes and overgeneralization exists for a reason (and can be hard to overcome). It is a psychological shortcut the mind uses to save time in thinking, and that is sometimes a good thing. I certainly wouldn’t suggest you throw them all away and walk through the downtown eastside by yourself late at night. However, trying to compare that to what abuse victims feel is terribly unfair to abuse victims – and is a deflection that still misses the point completely.

Lady tehMa wrote: Telling me my viewpoint is wrong is not a helpful in changing that viewpoint.

So, other than by educating people, what do you suppose would work ?

ETA: Consider - not all alcoholics or drug addicts commit crimes, and not all people who commit crimes are alcoholics or drug addicts. Some men beat their partners, yet not all men beat their partners - although someone who had that personal experience might believe so. I could go on. You started this thread by asking if there was a solution to this problem, yet you seem highly resistant to considering some of the underlying and core issues. It is not a simple issue I grant, but when ignoring the root of the problem every other solution is just reactive. That is the status quo. Have you noticed how effective it has been so far? If there is no change then there is no change.
Last edited by steven lloyd on Sep 10th, 2012, 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lady tehMa
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

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I can consider. I can feel sympathy. I can't trust. That ability has been crippled by the ones you wish to help.

So how do you propose I get to the point where I trust them? I'm resistant because I have been hurt. Basic reflexive reaction.
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steven lloyd
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

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Lady tehMa wrote:I can consider. I can feel sympathy. I can't trust. That ability has been crippled by the ones you wish to help. So how do you propose I get to the point where I trust them? I'm resistant because I have been hurt. Basic reflexive reaction.

Now that I can understand and appreciate. And I’m not suggesting you make the decision to blindly trust all addicts – or any of them for that matter. Your basic reflexive reaction developed for a reason and you should trust that. Understanding what it is and where it came from though will help you to compartmentalize that experience and see the big picture more clearly.

ETA: Helping addicts doesn’t require that we trust them. In fact, when working with an individual addict that would not be very prudent. An addict cannot even trust himself or herself. Why would you? However, how to work with an individual addict in creating individual change is quite a different question than what we can do as a society to lessen the overall negative impact of addiction in society and the correlation between addiction and crime.
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

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I had my house robbed a couple of times a few years back. It was a real nasty feeling of violation, knowing that some over-entitled little miscreant was rooting through my stuff with the intent of turning a couple thousand bucks worth of my hard earned toys into a couple of hundred bucks at a pawn shop and that was probably going to disappear into a crack pipe within a couple of hours. I was at the point where every kid I saw on the street was a "suspect" and anger surged up in me at the very thought of getting my hands around the culprits throat. My daughter, maybe fourteen at the time said "It's alright Dad, it's only stuff". She was right, it was only stuff and the insurance company fixed us up with a whole bunch of new stuff. I grew to see the anger as misplaced. There was no personal attack from the thieves, they may not have even known who I was, to them I was just the next fix. The only thing my anger (and fear) was going to accomplish was going to be to wreck an otherwise nice day.

I don't have to trust them, rather my ultimate reaction was to put in stronger doors and an alarm system. I don't have to hate them either, but it would be naive of me to not realize that there is an ongoing threat of further occurrences that should be addressed. It's nothing personal, they will do what they see as their only option.

Where to start? I'd like to see increased availability of treatment programs, and at a cost within the reach of whoever desires treatment, free if necessary. Maybe we could fund it with an alcohol tax.
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steven lloyd
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

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Good post fluffy. A large portion of our society would immediately bristle at the notion of providing the disenfranchised with “free” services. Why should they get “free” stuff when the rest of us work for what we get and take responsibility for ourselves? Great point - and I’m not going to go into some long dissertation here on the many paths there are available in our competitive, “every person for themselves, dog eat dog” society for people to become marginalized and desperate. Rather, I would ask people to stop and think (recognizing that some will choose to remain perched on their comfortable loft of judgement) what it is costing us (society) to not provide the disenfranchised with “free” services. The world will not change overnight, but real significant change (not superficial ineffective bandaid change) can be created. That requires a paradigm shift.
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Lady tehMa
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Re: Options for dealing with crime and drug use

Post by Lady tehMa »

You may have felt fear, fluffy. But perhaps you are forgetting about how large and visceral an emotional component it can be, especially for one who does not feel strong.

When we were robbed I too felt violated and angry. Also afraid. Afraid it would happen again. That it will happen again. Afraid that I would be home when it did. Afraid that our precautions wouldn't be enough. After many years I am no longer suffering overt panic disorder, but that fear is still there. Fear for myself, for my children.

If the disenfranchised were allowed access to free drugs, it isn't the fact that they are free that would bother me. It is the fact that they do not feel bound by societal guidelines, that they can be and often are violent; in the pursuit of their addiciton yes, but also in the throes of indulging that addiction.

If you think it would help them to have their free drugs, then by all means give it to them. But when doing so have them firmly locked up where they won't threaten or harm me or mine in the process. Maybe not jail, but certainly institutions with high security.

Can you could disprove my previous experiences, take away the firm conviction that criminals/addicts are dangerous? The trust I was talking about isn't trusting them with money, it is trusting that they won't hurt me and mine. That is the mindset you will need to overcome.
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