The emergent church

[unclemarty]

... there are several disputes stretching from the 4th century up to the Reformation in the 16th...

Not to mention that by the 4th century the roman authority over the gentile believers had already decided to replace much of the Torah (instructions) with the corrupt customs of men and to forcefully compel others to abandon (on pain of death) many of the original biblical ways of their Messiah, and to conform instead to customs and traditions that have their roots in eastern culture & legend including elements of thinly veiled pagan sun god worship. The result can still be found in varying degrees in every one of todays christian denominations including this "emergent church".

By the time of the reformation, these customs were universally observed.
"They have continued the custom even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text from the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair.”
The Faith of Millions - John Anthony O'Brien

This video gives some perfect examples:

[fluffy]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfundamentalistchristians/2013/07/what-non-christians-want-christians-to-hear/

Here's an interesting take on the issue of declining membership in traditional Christian churchs in North America. Be sure to read the intro before going on to the comments section.

[concernie]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfundamentalistchristians/2013/07/what-non-christians-want-christians-to-hear/

Here's an interesting take on the issue of declining membership in traditional Christian churchs in North America. Be sure to read the intro before going on to the comments section.

Do you honestly believe that the decline in the membership in the Universal Church (liturgical) is due to its faults? There hasn't been a systematic eroding away of Western Mores for the last 300, or more, years?

[fluffy]

Do you honestly believe that the decline in the membership in the Universal Church (liturgical) is due to its faults? There hasn't been a systematic eroding away of Western Mores for the last 300, or more, years?

Actually, from what I've seen in my research, the percentage of North American who claim a religious affiliation of some type is actually growing, albeit marginally. What is happening is people are moving away from mainline Christian religions in favour of others. It looks like the fastest growing group is the Evangelical religions.

[cliffy1]

Do you honestly believe that the decline in the membership in the Universal Church (liturgical) is due to its faults? There hasn't been a systematic eroding away of Western Mores for the last 300, or more, years?

The decline in membership is because people are tired of the corruption and power of an institution that has been corrupt since it was created purely for political reasons. The church isn't and never has been about spiritual stewardship. It has always been about power and control. The church wrote the bible under Constantin's direction. The church is the continuation of the Roman Empire. There is no truth in the bible beyond some moral stories that have some mild usefulness. The book is a work of fiction of not much value to thinking people. The church has long ago outlived its usefulness and has become an albatross around the spiritual neck of humanity.

[Glacier]

Actually, from what I've seen in my research, the percentage of North American who claim a religious affiliation of some type is actually growing, albeit marginally.

Your source is inaccurate, though in some high immigrant cities religious affiliation is growing marginally - and the only reason for this is immigration. If you look at the communities not attracting immigrants, the percentage of "no religious affiliation" is going up dramatically in both Canada and the United States. Kelowna – the whitest city in Canada – has one of the highest percentage of “no religious affiliation” in Canada.

[concernie]

I think a growing membership in the liberal swinging churches is irrelevant since liberal churches have lost all meaning of Christianity and just exist in name only. It makes more sense that church membership in conservative churches is declining because of the deconstruction of Western Civilization. Of course, this fact gets lost in the fog of PR terminology, like progressive, enlightened, evolving, etc, which makes this trend seem spontaneous and natural.

[fluffy]

Your source is inaccurate, though in some high immigrant cities religious affiliation is growing marginally - and the only reason for this is immigration. If you look at the communities not attracting immigrants, the percentage of "no religious affiliation" is going up dramatically in both Canada and the United States. Kelowna – the whitest city in Canada – has one of the highest percentage of “no religious affiliation” in Canada.

It's entirely possible that I may have it wrong, I was finding it a bit of a challenge to fins a reputable source with the sort of information I was looking for. Looking at results of the "Household Survey" that was completed by a small percentage of Canadian households during the national census in 2011 your info is confirmed. I note again though that although Christian religions in general are dropping, the Evangelical Protestant sects are enjoying a surge in membership. It is also of note that "no religious affiliation" is growing rapidly, with BC a forerunner in that aspect.

I think a growing membership in the liberal swinging churches is irrelevant since liberal churches have lost all meaning of Christianity and just exist in name only.

That has a real touch of arrogance to it concernie, it operates under the assumption that Christianity is the only religion that "has it right", which is an opinion and not a fact-based argument.

It makes more sense that church membership in conservative churches is declining because of the deconstruction of Western Civilization. Of course, this fact gets lost in the fog of PR terminology, like progressive, enlightened, evolving, etc, which makes this trend seem spontaneous and natural.

Or is it that our "moral decline" is a result of people leaving the church rather than the reason for it ?

[concernie]

... I note again though that although Christian religions in general are dropping, the Evangelical Protestant sects are enjoying a surge in membership. It is also of note that "no religious affiliation" is growing rapidly, with BC a forerunner in that aspect.

I don't doubt this. One only need look at the wealth of TV evangelists and their church memberships. TV evangelism, of the charismatic (signs and wonders) strain, is definitely the most popular in G8 nations, IMO.

That has a real touch of arrogance to it concernie, it operates under the assumption that Christianity is the only religion that "has it right", which is an opinion and not a fact-based argument.

Perhaps it comes off arrogant, but at least Christians who believe this are honest and upfront about it; you know exactly where you stand with their well defined standard. For what is it progressive to water everything down to neutrality and sterility? And this isn't just in the religious world; look at the political parties' B-line to the centre, for example. Everything is being deconstructed and centralized to one-worldism under the pretext of unity and tolerance.

Or is it that our "moral decline" is a result of people leaving the church rather than the reason for it ?

Since morals apply to individuals as they behave in their day-to-day lives and not just in-church behaviour, it's definitely driven by a systematic erosion. It began in England and in France, culminating in the overthrow of throne and altar during the bloody revolution. This Enlightenment revolution morphed into cultural Marxism, which, today, functions side-by-side with corporate-based capitalism in the Western world. Both dialectics are oppressive and exploitative, far more so than any perceived rigidity of the traditional Church.

[fluffy]

I'm of the mind that it was moral decline within the church that has been driving much of the membership away. A focus on wealth and political power adopted in medieval times survives to this day, most significantly within the Catholic church. This, coupled with a tenacious grip on outdated ritual and literalist Bible interpretation just doesn't appeal to many people these days. I know it was just that sort of thing that drove me away from any close affiliation with any organized religion and into a place where I chose the "cherry pick" the best aspects of many, along with some intuitive discoveries of my own. Who better to put a face on my God than me ?

[concernie]

I'm of the mind that it was moral decline within the church that has been driving much of the membership away. A focus on wealth and political power adopted in medieval times survives to this day, most significantly within the Catholic church.... I know it was just that sort of thing that drove me away from any close affiliation with any organized religion and into a place where I chose the "cherry pick" the best aspects of many, along with some intuitive discoveries of my own.

I think the people that were initially driven out of the Catholic Church due to clerical abuses were already on their way out regardless. There were/are many Catholics who helped reform the Catholic Church from within who didn't give a thought to joining Luther and Calvin. They remained Catholics despite incidences of clerical abuse. Take Thomas More, for example. The other thing is that the Protestant Reformation wasn't entirely a reaction to clerical abuses. There were external players manipulating both sides and deriving benefit. Look at King Henry VIII, for example, who used the vulnerability of the Catholic Church as a means to declare himself head of the church and allow himself to fornicate with every and any woman in sight. The Catholic Church didn't implode as much as it exploded due to the efforts of its enemies. The French Revolution and the 1965 Second Vatican Council were the final nails in the coffin.

Who better to put a face on my God than me ?

This is the exact mantra of Enlightenment thought spanning some 300 years. There is nothing new or "progressive" about it. Man makes god into his own image, is the new one-world religion. What's more, we can become god (Enlightenment occult science). This is even more superstitious than the Vatican.

This, coupled with a tenacious grip on outdated ritual and literalist Bible interpretation just doesn't appeal to many people these days.

The Bible itself says that God doesn't seek to tickle men's ears. Christianity is about finding men and women who find God appealing, just as He is. Do you know what the purpose of rituals and relics are?

[fluffy]

Christianity is about finding men and women who find God appealing, just as He is.

I would say that, in a nutshell, that statement pretty much defines spiritual searching in all its forms, the only difference being is that there are any number of paths to the same ultimate destination. There are no right or wrong paths, simply different choices available. There was a line in a movie a few years ago that has stuck with me for some reason, it went "I don't care what you believe in, just believe."

[concernie]

But that's not Christianity, fluffy, that's universalism. The point I was trying to make earlier was that the Emergent Church is universalism with a Christian mask. Now, what you appear to be saying is that all of Christianity needs to adopt this heresy, merely to appease the world? That's exactly what the Bible says not to do. And how can you ask someone to go against their conscience?

[fluffy]

You've got a point there, after all the idea of staying true to your own beliefs is forefront in any spiritual search. What I was suggesting is that perhaps religions who teach a particular set of beliefs rather than a path to personal discovery may be in part responsible for their own decline in numbers. Is universalism on the decline as well ? I didn' t see much mention of it in my research, is it a system being adopted by any mainstream religions ?

[concernie]

Is universalism on the decline as well ? I didn' t see much mention of it in my research, is it a system being adopted by any mainstream religions ?

Universalism is on the incline. It's usurpation of exclusive religions is sometimes referred to as ecumenism.