Silent Majority in Summerland: Urban Growth Strategy

[Jay05]

http://www.castanet.net/news/Penticton/110943/Summerland-mayor-on-urban-growth

The comments are now closed but I feel we need a place to keep discussing this topic.

Summerland Mayor Janice Perrino provided more details this week on the reason behind the vote delay on a contentious land planning issue.

Perrino explained it was because people were excluded from the first public hearing and there is a lot of misinformation on the matter out there.

"The city manager had been away, and when we told him about the public hearing and that we had to turn people away, he was concerned about that," she said. "He called our lawyer, and the lawyer said it's not good, everybody has to be able to present and listen."

The vote on the matter was slated to take place at Monday's council meeting. The public hearing was held March 3 at the arena banquet room to discuss the District of Summerland's urban growth strategy.

Hundreds showed up, and people had to be turned away.

The plan includes excluding 199 acres from the Agricultural Land Reserve, near downtown, and including 226 acres in a different area.

Most of those in attendance spoke out against the plan saying good, much needed farmland is being replaced by marginal hilly land.

A movement known as Stop the Swap, comprised of those strongly opposed to the plan, has organized a rally and invited people to sign a petition regarding the matter.

It is the mayor's understanding, a town hall meeting to give people the facts will be held April 7. The district is still confirming a venue that is big enough.

A date of April 22 is being discussed for a second pubic hearing, with the district still confirming a venue for that.

Perrino said she is looking forward to clearing up some of the misinformation out there.

For starters, the land they are considering taking out is not nearly as good as everyone thinks it is, and the 226 acres being included is not as bad as people say it is, she explained.

In response to people saying it is a matter of food security, she said there are 7,000 acres of farmland in Summerland.

"We have a lot of land for farming, so we do not have a farmland shortage," she said. "When I hear food security, I want to say, really, we have 7,000 acres."

The mayor also claims it was never a swap, but instead is to do with land planning.

"This is about planning for the future, for where it is best for Summerland to grow," she said. "It could be parkland, it could be homes and community gardens. The bottom line is we absolutely have to have growth."

Much of the concern, she believes, is that no one likes change.

But for Summerland to survive financially, it can't just be farmland. Residential areas are needed because that is what pays for infrastructures, she explained.

"High school enrolment has dropped drastically, businesses are closing," she said. "So we have to have growth. It has to change."

Nor, said Perrino, is there a conflict of interest, as some have claimed.

There are two councillors, Bruce Hallquist and Lloyd Christopherson, with very small acreages within the 199 acres being excluded.

"One has three acres, one has four, and both of them have had land there for over 30 years," she said. "And they have not voted at all, when we talk about this issue."

Furthermore, she said, she takes offence to the claim of a conflict.

"It is unfair and damaging to their characters," she said. "They are both very good men, who are above reproach."

The mayor said she recognizes people will continue to be opposed, and wants to continue to get information out to more people.

"We need to get the message out, about why we have gotten to this stage," she said. "It has been 14 months of public consultation to get to this point."

[rkillick]

Too much emotion for people to have a rational discussion about this. People really put their blinders on once they believe something and refuse to look at any evidence that may be against their position, therefore they will never change their position no matter how irrational it may be for fear of "losing face". Unfortunately for society, those people also happen to be the loudest.

[GIS_Dude]

Gotta agree with that statement rkillik. The only logical place for this issue to go now is on the ballot as a binding referendum question this November and let the electorate make the choice once and for all. The results of this referendum would also hold a lot more weight in the ALR review process at the provincial level (assuming an application is put forward), than an application from municipal council based on 7 votes minus two abstentions.

[NextGen]

I am glad to see the silent majority finally speaking out, there was some great comments. thought I would re post them.



AC • 7 days ago
Your right the “Silent Majority” has had enough!!!!!!! Slowly but surely once the information on this proposal is communicated on the media and through open house, more Summerland residents will realize that this is an opportunity for future 50years of growth. Unfortunately many have been brain washed by the anit-swap group through propaganda in the media and personal attacks and lies and bullying our town of Summerland and its residents. People will finally see the truth of the matters and see that Summerland is in critical economical crisis. Another major concern of mine is one of the councillors “ Waterman” right from the from the beginning of the Proposal, he has publicly through newspapers and media has stated he is an “Ant-Swap member” (maybe leader) and is backing this group and writing misleading information himself. Now as a municipal
councillor are you not supposed unbiased until you hear all sides and all information from your City staff and Summerland Residents before declaring what position you stand by????????? Now its looks to me that he is unethical and unprofessional and should not be holding a position as our Summerland councillor. This has to be addressed, its a real concern when your public municipal councillor is not willing to listen to the "silent majority" or Summerland Residents at all.

Old boy to AC • 7 days ago
You are absolutely rite,a Councillor is supposed to have an open mind while going thru the process,especially once first reading has been given to a bylaw,the public hearing and second and third reading of a bylaw. Go to the Assoc of the Citzens of Summerland website and read some of the posts from 2005 when the town was going thru the Summerland Hills Project,and read some of the information posted about the inclusion site,with comments made by Waterman and a number of other "experts" on the agriculyural viability of that land in 2005.
I dont think that the viability of that land has changed since 2005, but they are trying to tell us something different today!!

SummerlandFarmer • 8 days ago
Looks like the silent majority might not be so silent after all eh?



Old boy to SummerlandFarmer • 7 days ago
It is about time,but they need to let the Mayor and Council know what they think about the proposal and then more importantly the ALC if Council passes it on to them for a decision!!



SummerlandFarmer to Old boy • 7 days ago
Definitely! I'll be at the meetings with my fellow supporters. I have also written the ALC, I'll keep encouraging others to do so aswell!


Lasnomadas to SummerlandFarmer • 7 days ago
I sent a letter to the ALC a couple of weeks ago but, because it is a government agency, I don't expect a reply.
BTW, have you read the details of their website recently? I think it answers one of the questions I asked you today, the one about 'who owns ALR land'. It doesn't all belong to farmers, as many would have us believe. Much of it is owned by various levels of government.

antipp to SummerlandFarmer • 7 days ago
I bet there will be some "Stop the Swappers" who will be shutting up about holding a referendum! Actually, that's a good idea come to think about it.


Lasnomadas • 8 days ago
I'm surprised this thread is still open. It seems all we're doing now is arguing "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" I'm sure that nobody will move to Summerland if there are no jobs. There are no jobs because there is no industry . You can build a thousand houses and they will stand empty unless there is somewhere for the homeowners to go to work.
Look at Fort McMurray, or instance. Which came first, the oil patch or the people?

Nook to Lasnomadas • 8 days ago
Yah lets look at the Fort, guess what happening there, similar to what some of you ALR farmers are doing (outsourcing) here in Summerland. You are hiring immigrants, selling the cherries over seas, you are leasing the land to foreigners and who knows what you are planting and what pesticides you are using. I think that we need to write to Christy Clark that we have to have someone investigate the ethics of our local farmers. I thing that the whole system needs to be reviewed including the ALR Commission. I think many have taken advantage of loop holes in the system. Thank you for making us aware of what's going on in the ALR group, now maybe we can really get to the root of the problem here in Summerland.


Lasnomadas to Nook • 7 days ago
To put in our infamous Prime Minister's words: "Let me be perfectly clear"..........I am not, nor have I ever been a farmer. I am a retired fisherman. I have no idea if what you're accusing of Summerland farmers is true or not. But I do know that the ALR was set aside for a reason and it should be used for agriculture, not housing developments. There are far too many politicians, municipal and provincial that have been gnawing away at the ALR with no regard for future generations, and for what? Political greed; the need to put more tax dollars into their coffers so they can continue to rape our agricultural land and make us more and more dependent on food imports.
Doesn't it bother you that cancer, diabetes, and many other food related diseases are increasing dramatically? Our governments don't even try to inspect meat, fish, and produce that comes into Canada from countries that have no regard for human health. Even our closest neighbour is guilty of that. Just watch a documentary called "Food Inc".


SummerlandFarmer to Lasnomadas • 7 days ago
It does bother many of us that cancer etc is on the rise. Which is why we should be inspecting our OWN food aswell. I wonder just how good our quality of air is here in Summerland with our mix or agricultural land spraying pesticides constantly with urban housing surrounding. This isn't about greed at all, c'mon!!!! It's about finding a plan to help Summerland grow-a plan that will succeed you and I. For the umpteenth time: THIS is why Separating urban and rural designations is so crucial.


Lasnomadas to SummerlandFarmer • 7 days ago
I get that. What I don't get is why the district, or municipality, or whatever you call it, is trying to swap useless land for ALR land. And face it, SF, we've both been up there and checked it out, and that 'land' isn't fit for growing anything. Even sheep couldn't survive up there.
Well, you're a farmer and I'm not, so I'm waiting for your expert opinion on this.


L Lewis • 8 days ago
The whole thing stands at the ALR was put aside for a reason not to be wheeled dealer with . Once this deal goes through then all the other municipalities will be approached by developers to do the same thing then it turns out to be a lot more then few hundred acres! Development of urben growth means more money in taxes because you need new roads new million dollar round a outs more sewers new bridges bigger schools etc.etc and yes the crime rate will go up and then the casino of course .We do not know how lucky we are! Not every place has to be a Vancouver a surrey or abbotsford look at the problems there having with crime bridges and development . The only people making money on this deal is the developers and the people that own that land.Once it's gone it's gone.Greed always wrecks good things.iIf this goes through it will brake down the ALR so sad!


AC to L Lewis • 8 days ago
I am so interested how you can see the future so clear Lewis, do you have a crystal ball? Lewis, yes you, the old boys club, you have been keeping this community in your pocket. Your small group is suffocating Summerland. We have 7000 acres of ALR land. The proposal is asking for small parcel of 226 acres. Now I don't know if you know, but its not all the ALR land in Summerland (you can count right?). We have tons and tons of farming left. This is land possibly being used for housing development for the next 30 t0 50 years. I feel really sorry for your group, nothing you say has real facts or real numbers or even an idea how to solve Summerland/s issues. Just you and your so called friends not wanting things to change and amongst that, vandalism, harassing towns people, and business owners and bullying, coming up to people in stores and asking "what side are you on?" and for the love of god stop bullying those poor seniors. Your group is toooooo aggressive and townspeople are getting rather upset about all the behavior and actions and comments. OH OH and you mentioned a Casino I think that is the most ludicrous statement I have heard from your group, grasping at straws aren't you. Guess what folks, you have been controlling this town long enough time for action, time for change, time to survive.

Lasnomadas to AC • 7 days ago
Since I'm relatively new to this area, maybe you can inform me as to how much of that 7,000 acres is presently being farmed.


SummerlandFarmer to Lasnomadas • 7 days ago
Again, the way it works is that it is up to the individuals who own the land what they farm and if they farm. Nobody dictates this. The land being removed is being replaced, and one of the main reasons is to keep agricultural land rural. People keep asking why we don't build on the land being swapped and the answer is simple: Then we have urban residential sections on the outside of town, and agricultural rural farm lands in our downtown core. This is not smart or progressive planning. Pretty simple.


Lasnomadas to SummerlandFarmer • 7 days ago
Are you a politician? Your reply sort of indicates that you are. I asked how much of the ALR land is being farmed. Why is that so difficult to answer?
The reason I asked is because if much of that land is not being used, why not designate some of it as the 'swap'? Surely not all of those 7,000 acres are owned by farmers. Isn't some of it crown land?


Nook to Lasnomadas • 7 days ago
Las, for someone who is relatively new to the community, that is unfortunate for you. Because you really don't have an idea or understanding of what has been happening here in Summerland for 40 years. I am glad to see your involved but my advice double check your sources, and go to the open house you may become enlightened and find that your previous sources are completely false and unreliable.



SummerlandFarmer to Lasnomadas • 7 days ago
No way am I a politician, I don't have thick enough skin, that I can admit! The hell this council has been put through even though they ran on a platform of growth is embarrassing, as a Summerland resident. I don't know how much ALR land is being farmed, I don't really care to be honest. That seems rather irrelevant to what we are discussing.
I also don't understand why the attacking of who owns the land? WHo cares if it's crown land-you'll complain it was a conspiracy of the government...if it's farmer's land than you'll complain they'll make big bucks on selling...when at the end of the day neither of those matter to what is being proposed and why. Look on the website to find the answers that you seek I guess?



antipp • 8 days ago
I have come to the conclusion that this stop the swap business is laughable. How did I come to this conclusion? All I did was go to the ALC website and I clicked on Maps>S.Okanagan>Summerland (the Google map is the best) Just look at the ALR land here. We are having an argument over what - 199 acres? I feel stupid that I ever made comments to the Stop the Swappers!! Waste of my time.


Fly on the wall • 8 days ago
There are intelligent SUCCESSFUL business people who have retired I this community from out of province. . . . . . .and many of them find it absurd at how anti business this town is.. .there are opportunities and there is definitely a work force looking for jobs here.The biggest problem is the old "boys club" thinking that has controlled and run (ruined) this town.
We need a fresh start and as far as I am concerned ALL the "old guard" on city council has too go. . . .it is risky but Summerland has nothing to loose.
Has anyone counted the empty shops/buildings lately in town centre?
We do not need more realtor offices, second hand shops,or hair salons. . But there is room of lots of other businesses.


Old boy to Fly on the wall • 8 days ago
If you take the time to look back thru abit of history in Summerland,it isnt the fwd thinking old guard that has brought Summerland to where it is today,but has been no growth,no vision farming community that has controlled many decisions on Council over the years.Just look at the state of this industry in Summerland,we no longer have the 100's of people employed in the many caneries,packing houses and a box factory/ mill to feed the industry,all disappeared,these so called present day farmers need to get with it or not.There was no support for the $10m investment we could have had from SunOpta foods that went south a few years ago,by the farmers on Council at the time. This all about hiding behind the ALR as an excuse for not planning for sustainable future growth. Too bad as it appears we are once again headed down a road of being controlled by a few and not the silent majority that elected this Council to do a job for the whole community,not just a small pressure group ,with a paid leader!!


Nook to Fly on the wall • 8 days ago
Your comments are extremely toxic and almost on the verge of threatening peoples jobs that is completely insane and unnecessary. If anything the anti swap group “IS THE OLD BOYS CLUB” group that has been preventing this town from moving
forward and has been in postions of power in the past 50 years and they have been the known “No Growthers” Most of us voted in people that would be working towards rebuilding our community and growing and possibly saving it. Mind you there is one there that I would NEVER voted in. So fly on the wall, you not putting any facts, you are not adding positively to this conversation. The Anti swap group has commented on no solutions' to the dire needs of the community. just adding negativity to our sweet Summerland..


Jason • 9 days ago
Facts are facts If you’re going to plant roots here in Summerland it is a known fact these things are mandatory, there should be good access to medical care, low crime, good public transportation and, yes, bonus our beautiful weather. Above all, there has to be affordable housing for first time home owners. That’s why measures like housing prices, employment and wealth are particularly important, and are given the greatest weighting in moving or living here or surviving. Our specific situation is unique and we have to look at this as an opportunity. Agricultural is important but its does not create the income or jobs this town needs in order to survive this economy in the future. Especially if some farmers are hiring immigrants that take away from local jobs. If people don’t have jobs or affordable housing how can they even afford to buy food. Our food banks our over whelmed in the Okanagan because of the unemployment rate here. The city's proposal is asking for a partial of the ALR land not ALL THE ALR LAND. Those that oppose, must be really independently wealthy and don’t have these economic issues that most of the public are facing today and concerns of our future. We need affordable housing , we need jobs so we can feed our families, we need new business to come to town. Saving this partial of land is not going to help us community members in anyway, if anything you are causing our town to economically and socially diminish. My family and I support the proposal.



Lasnomadas to Jason • 9 days ago
Sorry, but I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Summerland needs, first and foremost, new business and industry. Unemployment is so high here that any jobs offered by new businesses would be filled immediately by people already living here. Affordable housing won't attract new families, but jobs will.


Jason to Lasnomadas • 8 days ago
First of all I would like to state I had friends that wanted to move to Summerland and searched thoroughly for affordable housing in their price range. They could not afford our housing prices so they went and moved to Penticton. They has a family of 5 and 3 of those kids could of attended our local schools. That would of shopped in our local stores, but there was nothing here that could offer housing in their financial status. The other issue I recently learned through news articles, that opposing the swap people is your online petition, it does not carry weight with us Summerland residents because it is invalid, Most of those that have signed the petition do not live on our community so they have absolutely no idea what is happening in our town and should NOT have a say in our community planning. I would have actually like to have seen a real paper petition because then “real” people have to sign them, with real signatures and presumably real addresses. I believe in ALR to a certain extent but if our town was thriving I would protest as well, but our town has been declining for 30 years. Enough is enough. Time for Growth.


Wil to Lasnomadas • 8 days ago
Sorry I totally disagree with Nook, Anti, and Summerland.
The work force is already here and every year we have young people graduating who all must leave because there are no jobs. A couple we know who bought a basic home here left back to Alberta, why? Because there are No jobs. Young girl early twenties left for Alberta to find Any kind of job retail restaurant whatever , why? Because she could not find a job here
This town is loosing all it's young people because there are NO JOBS.
Personally I know of several young families who have left, as well as several young people in their mid twenties, all hard workers who can not find jobs here . Some have left basic affordable homes here that they can not sell.
we have enough homes for young families we do not have enough apartments for young singles.
You guys are all nuts with the idea of building homes and then the jobs will come. .. . .
In town centre alone we have a dozen empty For Sale or Rent buildingsThe industrial areas have plenty of space for larger businesses and I could name a few that are sitting empty
none sense from the Pro Swap People.



Nook to Wil • 8 days ago
I think its amusing when people talk third party info, Oh you know of a
friend of a friend that this happened too, small town rumors. Sorry if
they were from Alberta pretty sure they didn't buy a home for less then
$400.000. If they did well then, they must of been 55 and over. You
always have lots of nasty comments and bullying tactics to say about the
Pro Swap People and Mayor and councilors REALLY???? what facts are you
really presenting????? How do you think this town can be saved? Give us
some real answers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


AC to Wil • 8 days ago
Its better to keep your mouth shut and to be thought of a fool than open you mouth and remove all doubt your arguments are weak and misinformed and losing credibility. But then again starting propaganda and malicious lies seems to be the Stop the
Swap angle to get their way. If you are so concerned then buy ALL the land in Summerland then you and your small group can control it, because really you are only thinking of yourselves. You are not thinking of the general populous and our future. Stimulating the economy and financial status of your community we must create low affordable housing and I am talking about cost wise $300,000 or less housing for Summerland. Make it cheaper for them to locate here than anywhere else, and that will start the stimulus tremendously. Next tax incentives, then next we need to contact our federal and provincial representatives and ask for assistance at this; make sure
he/she is aware of our needs and that you need their help to be successful (they deal with industry reps around your our province and might be able to put a good word in for your our town of Summerland. Make it a priority that our federal and provincial government that they need to bring jobs into the area and for them to know we are in the plans or have the infrastructure in place to support industrial and commercial businesses. We have to make the mayor and city councillors that this is what our town needs to survive. Creating infrastructure and affordable housings, brings manufacturers which will bring jobs, which of course will benefit the whole town.


SummerlandFarmer to Wil • 8 days ago
Well your arguments are redundant as well I see.
The points you make don't address any of the issues at hand and you only seem able to look at things that impact you or close friends directly. Look at the big picture, for all the residents of Summerland. There are no jobs because there is nowhere to live, you're right! Goes for rentals and buyers....business can't sustain or start-up with stagnate population. No new people=no new business.
Nowhere to live=no jobs. Not tough to figure out, common sense my friend, not nonsense!
Ignorance is bliss for you and Lasmonadas apparently, I'm not wasting another sensible word in even addressing the silly things listed above.


Nook to Lasnomadas • 8 days ago
Jobs don't come on a silver platter Las, commercial and industrial will want to invest in Summerland if they see that you have the demographic/people and that your city is planning for development and expansion. Why would you invest here knowing your demographic is retired and not spending like young working families would. Wow I am mind boggled that people don't get how the process works or how you build a town. the town cant sustain itself on ALR. ALR get subsided with taxes, water, etc. while the rest of the town do not get subsidized.


Old boy to Nook • 8 days ago
You are rite on the money,Nook!!



antipp to Lasnomadas • 8 days ago
I think you've got your horse and cart mixed up, sir or madam. If jobs will attract new families, where do you propose they will live? It doesn't matter how plentiful jobs are, if there is no home to buy or rent here, they will live in Penticton or not come here at all.


SummerlandFarmer to Lasnomadas • 8 days ago
RIght, so we can have a whole bunch of jobs available and nowhere for the people to move to unless they're 55+ or financially stable enough to buy a 300,000+ home with tons of work needed. C'mon really?
To those opposed with valid arguments that aren't wasting everyone's time with these silly arguments they must be cringing...it is really taking away your credibilty...
What do you propose to attract new business right now as Summerland is, to attract business growth without population and basic service growth to go with it? I'd love to hear some factual arguments Lasnomadas.


Lasnomadas SummerlandFarmer • 8 days ago
You want factual arguments? How about reading comments from many others who agree with me, beginning with 'Wil's comment above, just below my own?



Gordon • 9 days ago
"Development" can mean many things. For people who don't already know, and for people who are STILL willing to re-think the situation, and are not just part of the "pro-development crowd through ignorance and greed by default, what city hall is not telling you is that higher density residential housing will cost each one of us more in taxes, not less. It is this type of "missing" information that makes the modus operandi" of city hall suspect. We are not all IDIOTS so please stop treating us as if we were. Aside from the BEYOND cumbersome "where do we go from here" initiative, it almost appears that council already knew "where" it was going and the whole thing was all a smoke screen to keep us pacified and complacent. That didn't work. On the issue of 2 councillor's land values growing by exponential proportions, councillors were elected to be able to vote on changing the community plan, not to be able to make a bundle from NOT voting. How this whole thing has gotten to this point is truly mind blowing. The fact that the mayor is saying this is not a conflict of interest begs a question or three.


Old boy to Gordon • 8 days ago
There is more to this equation than what it costs in taxes to support it,which by the way is on an average year only $50,000 by the farming community,so so much for an economic driver,why would they be complaining,they dont contribute much in terms of dollars anyways to the city coffers. The other thing that hasnt been said,is the contribution of growth to our churchs,festivals,rec facilities,community organizations and on and on,the very things that make Summerland unique!! As for the 2 "conflicted"councillors,we are talking a whole 7 ac.combined of potential value appreciation,out of 199 ac.they were long out of the voting picture before the consultants brought their recommendations to the council table.I also understand that in both cases they have owned these properties for over 30 yrs,not like they bought them for speculation yesterday!!



Wil to Gordon • 9 days ago
Gordon would you like to be our next mayor. . . I am sure that you would have lots of support


Nook to Wil • 8 days ago
He would not get my vote that's for sure.!!!!!!!!!!!!!


antipp to Wil • 8 days ago
He would not get my vote!


Old boy to antipp • 8 days ago
Just what we need is more people like Gordon,wouldnt be getting my vote either!!


AC to Gordon • 9 days ago
I have to say slander and bullying is wrong approach. I can't believe the meanness, its like you are having a temper tantrum, please be civil. Your argument is useless. These two councilman have already removed themselves from this discussion they have no voting rights. What about some of the farmers here in Summerland that are leasing their properties to foreign investment how does that help our Community grow? How are you putting money back into the community? So if I don't have work and no money for food or shelter can we all move in with the local farmers?


Wil to AC • 9 days ago
Removing themselves does not mean they don't stand to make a lot of $$$$
These two council men already had lots of in put in a direction that would favour them.
More affordable(?) homes Does Not = jobs in the community


Nook to Wil • 8 days ago
When you assume, you make and “*bleep* “out of “U” and “Me” You are assuming that these two councillors are going to make profit. What if these two don’t sell what propaganda are you going to create then?? You do realize that your argument is pathetic, personal attacks are not facts they are driven by anger and loss of control and misunderstanding the facts. Some farmers here have been unethical for years, hiring immigrants,so how does that employ our locally unemployed?? Some farmers have been or planning to lease and sell their ALR land to foreign investment how does that help our local economy??


SummerlandFarmer to Nook • 8 days ago
Bang on! And to take it one step further: Did you know the leader of Stop the Swap has family land here in Summerland? I'm pretty sure they ship their cherries overseas to make a profit...just saying.
If the ALR stays intact some serious things need to change! Regulate pesticide use and protect our young and elderly. Support our local economy by requiring a certain percentage of crop/meat what have you, sold only in Canada and to hire Canadian/local workers. This is an outdated system that needs addressing to be beneficial to towns like Summerland and up and down the Okanagan valley.


Nook to SummerlandFarmer • 8 days ago
It is almost comical there angle is "we must secure our food source" when in fact knowingly that our "food source" is being shipped overseas and our ALR land is leased to Foreigners for profit. How the heck does that help our local community. The Anti-Swap arguments are becoming a laughing stock.


SummerlandFarmer to Wil • 8 days ago
More affordable homes means population growth which then means local businesses growth which then creates opportunity for new business to grow because there is the population to spend their hard-earned money in.
WIthout population growth (which has been under 1000 people in the last 10 years) new business is not coming to Summerland. WE have nothing to offer them stability-wise, we can hardly keep our current local businesses afloat.
Deflecting from the issue at hand by attacking the coucil men who own land in the area belittles you.


Old timer • 9 days ago
building more homes is not going to correct the problems that Summerland has. Although I don't agree with the mayor on this situation in her defense she has tried to do things to help Summerland and has faced resistance (the prision). I think she could do things like change certain by-laws to make living here more attractive. Allowing backyard hens, promoting sustainable, environmentally friendly and natural way of living. There is a solution to our problem out there...this isn't it.




SummerlandFarmer to Old timer • 9 days ago
I actually really like the suggestions you made above...changing certain by-laws for the examples you listed are a really great idea. While I support this, I concede that even if passed the chances of the ALR approving are not high so I'm not getting my hopes too high. The suggestions you listed would make living here more attractive, and possibly help to keep the residents we currently have.



SummerlandFarmer:
My 'garden' is a 6'X8' patio. If you can grow a year's supply of vegetables on that, please come and show me how it's done.

Summerland Farmer to Lasnomadas • 9 days ago
It can be done, however, that was not even close to the point I was making. We are not suffering from a shortage of viable farmland here, as stated in the article we are sitting on a nice pot of 7000 acres. My point was that by making arguments about what YOU want to see grown weakens your argument because it is not in your control. Truth be told, having farm land in our urban centres gives farmers too much power, and I am one. Being able to haul in 100 pigs at my whim in spite of what might be good for my neighbours or this town is a reality.If I stockpile pounds upon pounds of old rotten wood and stack it across my property so that is what you look at when you look out your window that would be within my rights as an ALR farmer. I'm not threatening to do so, just trying to explain that that would be more financially viable than growing vegetables because that's what you request to buy at a farmer's market...I hope that's a little clearer for you..
I am only looking to shed some light on the effects of having farmland in the middle of residential neighbourhoods...again. It is not all beautiful views and those in the homes not in the ALR have ZERO power to dictate what the neighbourhood farms can do. ie. Pesticides, pigs and cattle, junk yards etc.. See my arguments from past articles please as I refuse to repeat the same arguments if you refuse to even acknowledge them as valid.


Lasnomadas to SummerlandFarmer • 9 days ago
Your arguments only prove to me that you're looking to sell your farm for a higher price than what you would get if you sold it while it was still in the ALR.
And no, you can't grow a year's worth of veggies on a 6'X8' patio. You don't even have to be a farmer to know that.


antipp to Lasnomadas • 8 days ago
If you re-read Summerland Farmer again, the reasons were that their land is right in the middle of a residential area, not that they were looking to sell.


SummerlandFarmer to Lasnomadas • 8 days ago
Unfortunately your ignorance will be your own downfall. Thank goodness we have a council who is going ahead and making things happen so this town can grow.
Otherwise who knows? This will be a tiny little ghost town with only pig, cattle and grape farms ..and you'll end up in a city that you're so opposed to anyway.



Lasnomadas to SummerlandFarmer • 8 days ago
Calling people who disagree with you 'ignorant' is the height of ignorance. There are 3 pro-swappers on this thread who need to stop thinking of their own priorities and start thinking what's best for their community. People are leaving here in droves because there is no industry, no businesses to work for, and you think we need more housing developments? Who do you think is going to buy these homes when there are no jobs available in this town?


SummerlandFarmer to Lasnomadas • 8 days ago
It almost seems unfair to argue with you anymore because you are not understanding me at all. I'm not calling you ignorant because you disagree with me, the fact that you cannot present a valid argument and respond with "read other people's arguments" to support your point is frankly annoying. I don't think you're ignorant, I think you're ignorant to what needs to happen for Summerland to survive: Grow. I sure hope that clarifies things...again....


Lasnomadas to SummerlandFarmer • 8 days ago
I know exactly where you stand. I need no more clarification. I'm tired of arguing with you, too, but I have tried to clarify my position. You'll find it at or near the top of this page.
Good night. Over, and out.


artifact cat • 9 days ago
Yes, it is not only, 'no good' but it is illegal for the shareholders (read taxpayers) to not have a chance to hear and be heard, when that is a legally held public input meeting. Tell the truth!
Yes, she is right, there is a lot of MISINFORMATION out there and it is coming from the developers and the ALR removal advocates. If they dare to get at the truth of public opinion, hold a referendum and be prepared to step down if it does not go your way.
I am sure that the mayor will be giving the 'facts' at the next public meeting. It wouldn't be just 'opinions' would it?
How many homes did she say can be put on the the 2 acreages owned by city councillors? No conflict of interest, eh?
No, it was not a 'swap' as is quoted. It was a "bait and switch."....pretending that the two land parcels are equivalent when they are really miles apart...why not keep both of them planted to crops?
The mayor may take offence to a claim of conflict but it doesn't mean it is not true.



AC • 9 days ago
Please help Save Our Summerland! WE NEED GROWTH (oh I know "growth" is a scary word for some of you).Reality check; Business are closing, people are unemployed,people are moving, we have some really tough issues in our community. I really feel bad for these councilors and mayor that have to endure the negative attitude and comments and behavior from the other side. Personal attacks are pathetic its a form of bullying and resorting to personal attacks belittles your opinion and shows that you cannot debate an issue on your own merit. They are not paid enough to take the crap they have taken, I could not do their job. I am glad there will be a town hall meeting because the mayor is correct there is way to much misinformation out there. I went and took pictures and samples of this ALR land in question, and are you kidding me, not all this land is good for planting (maybe planting rocks). Its perfect location for housing (not more 55 + I will protest that) but please give us affordable housing for young working families. If Industrial and Commercial business see that we have some growth or planning too then its a huge possibility they will bring their business's to our community. We have 7000 hectares of farming land we have lots of food source here there is no question about that. What we don’t have is, proper infrastructure and this has to change in order to survive. But through innovation, ingenuity and a willingness to transform and grow, our small town can thrive and even grow in the next 20 to 50 years. Many of us support this opportunity. we love Summerland but we are tired of seeing the same thing happen like it has been for 50 years. We voted in Pro Growth Pro Business people and we want growth, please listen to what we have been saying.


Old boy to AC • 9 days ago
Couldnt agree more,AC!!


Todd • 9 days ago
Any particular reason Summerland can't just develop the land that is to be swapped?
Ohh, that's right, I forgot.
It is far too hilly, full of granite and bedrock to be able to develop on the cheap..but it certainly would be an appropriate place to farm weeds and sage.


Guest Todd • 9 days ago
I thought one of the main arguments against this is that we can build a house on a rock no problem...if that is the case then I don't think the land hasn't been developped because of hills, bedrock and granite.
People are building up mountainsides as it is...in spite of those "conditions" listed above.


Lasnomadas • 10 days ago
Okay, here's the thing........Mayor Perrino has no sense of fair play. She says the land that they want to take out of the ALR is not as good as people think it is, and the 226 acres to be included is not as bad as people say it is. That is simply not true, which anyone who has ever seen these two parcels of land can attest to.
If she wants to take away good, arable farmland, then she must replace it with equally good, arable farmland. The people of Summerland will accept nothing less. Instead of stalling and trying to wear people down, why doesn't she hold a referendum and let the people decide?


mary • 10 days ago
The fallacy is that growth is the answer to the (financial) sustainability of a community. It is merely a short term approach to financing new infrastructure and reaping one-time income (in the form of various development fees). Using the Mayor's argument, over the longer term, that new growth will eventually require even more new growth to sustain it. So where does this formula end? How about less government, living within one's means and planning over the long term to finance necessary infrastructure improvements. This creates greater affordability and, in turn, a more socially diverse (healthy/sustainable) community which naturally attracts businesses.



Gordon mary • 9 days ago
Your clarity of mind is so refreshing. Thank you.



Frustrated Summerlander mary • 9 days ago
So TRUE. This whole land swap is a quick fix, that will possibly look good for a season.. . . Short term solutions are ONLY good for Emergencies. . .
We need some INTELLIGENT planning for long term. . . . The industrial areas have potential but many are abandoned . . . .much of the inner town shops and homes in certain neighbourhoods are deteriorating. . . . let the developers look at revamping and buy that for their development.
They can start with the old RCMP lot that is sitting vacant.
A drive around and one will see how much available Residential, Commercial and Industrial PROPERTIES are presently sitting VACANT. . .and decaying
Besides the "greed factor" Developers have had a tough go in Summerland because this is NO LONGER a real town. . . .it is merely becoming an extension of Penticton.. . .like Kaledean.


New Bee • 10 days ago
Dear Mrs.Mayor,
In Europe and many other places agriculture and residential mixes very well. It is this unique setting that attracts people to the area.
With the proposed changes one might as well move to Kelowna or Penticton.
Summerland does not have a lot going for it. . . . Other than the character of a mix of rural in between the neighbourhoods. It is a refreshing change from the "city"
Please spend your efforts on attracting shops for the centre of town and businesses (jobs) for the empty industrial areas.
There are already a lot of options for lots to build homes on.. . Don't need more
I am on the band wagon to save what you call ALR



antipp • 10 days ago
Glad to see some more information from the mayor! Getting tired of the one sided rantings!


SummerlandFarmer • 10 days ago
It was nice to see an article showing the other side of the issue, without only stop the swap opinion. Good read Castanet!


cdegan • 10 days ago
Do you think, that with all of our business closures, and Summerland being full of retired/elderly people and growth being stagnate, is because young families cant afford to live here, that it would be more advantageous to all, to build affordable, low income homes? Wages are low here. Taking land out of the reserve, I fear would make for more "over 50" gated communities! We dont need more of that. Just a thought.


New Bee to cdegan • 10 days ago
AND with no real jobs who are these families we are building for??
People who move here come because of the unique rural setting. . They are wanting to get away from the urban sprawl of other towns.
Just wondering where Mayor Perrino is getting her information from OR is this a big game for her??
Please Please Please Please mayor Perrino concentrate on the REAL problems and don't create more problems. We don't need more housing in the core we need businesses
I am an import to the area and I can't believe the thinking of this council
"recipe for disaster"



antipp to cdegan • 10 days ago
I agree cdegan, (I live in a 55+ condo) and there are way too many of them here. Ours was built in the late 80s and a lot of poor workmanship is now coming to light. Where are the developers who walked away with a tidy little profit? Anyway, if this land is taken out of the ALR, I will be taking note of what is going on that land by "developers" and if it is not affordable housing, I will be putting my two cents in for sure!

[NextGen]

Its absolutely ridiculous to have a referendum, (waste of time and money) The Old boys club would be the only ones who would want that. We voted on a council and mayor to repair the damage that has been done on previous councils and to start a smart way of planning growth in our town.






“You're short on ears and long on mouth.”

[old boy]

Glad to see all those comments posted from the news article,which is now closed for further comments. Thanks NextGen!!
These comments (not all)represent some good,commonsense,thoughts on this subject by the silent majority. Hopefully more of these people will take the new opportunity afforded them by the Mayor and Council ,to show up and participate in the information session and the public hearing,and not let either of these 2 meetings be run over by the negativity of the "Stop the Swap" group!!! If there ever was a time in the history of Summerland to get out and support a positive intiative for the community,this is it!!! The community cant thrive/ survive on more of the same of the past 20+ years!!!

[GIS_Dude]

A binding referendum question on this years municipal election ballot is not going to cost anything.

What it will do is give a clear direction from the electorate one way or another...50%+1 is the bar that has to be achieved for the application to proceed. As it sits now even if the current council went ahead with 2nd and 3rd readings to pass the bill and then proceeded to send the application to the ALR for consideration, there would be a mass protest along with a petition or two dropped at the ALR's feet from the stop the swap camp anyways. This would simply trigger the ALR to punt it right back to municipal council to get a consensus before sending such a politically hot potato to them.

It is only another seven months until election time anyways where some or all of the current council will be re-applying for their jobs. This is the perfect time for those coucillors that are running again as well as anyone else with aspirations to council, to get out and make this an election issue and find out exactly how much support there is for it either way. Then the new council on November 16th will have a clear and focused mandate on the direction the electorate wants to go with this issue and all bitching and whining from either camp after that can be ignored.

[rustled]

The problem with referendums is that people don't have to inform themselves. The passionate side will pull out all the stops, and fear always attracts more attention than common sense. So you end up with a lot of voters in the booths thinking, "I don't really know anything about this and I really don't care, but my friend seems really sure we should/shouldn't, so I'll vote this way just in case." Is that a good way to govern?

The council is accountable for their decision; Joe and Jane Public can stand on a soapbox and lobby for one side or the other all they want, but there is no real or immediate consequence for them regardless of the outcome.

Summerland voters could instead expect council do their homework and make the tough decisions; they're already paid to do both. Then people could re-elect them if they feel they're doing a good job or turf them if they think they're incompetent.

[*m*e*g*s*]

Thank you for continuing this discussion. There are some excellent points made and some that are very frustrating to read....mainly because they lack any fact or substance. Besides the point-does anyone know if the dates have officially been set for the next open house and meeting?

[NextGen]

A binding referendum question on this years municipal election ballot is not going to cost anything.

What it will do is give a clear direction from the electorate one way or another...50%+1 is the bar that has to be achieved for the application to proceed. As it sits now even if the current council went ahead with 2nd and 3rd readings to pass the bill and then proceeded to send the application to the ALR for consideration, there would be a mass protest along with a petition or two dropped at the ALR's feet from the stop the swap camp anyways. This would simply trigger the ALR to punt it right back to municipal council to get a consensus before sending such a politically hot potato to them.

It is only another seven months until election time anyways where some or all of the current council will be re-applying for their jobs. This is the perfect time for those coucillors that are running again as well as anyone else with aspirations to council, to get out and make this an election issue and find out exactly how much support there is for it either way. Then the new council on November 16th will have a clear and focused mandate on the direction the electorate wants to go with this issue and all bitching and whining from either camp after that can be ignored.

I honestly don’t know where you get your information from, but again your spreading misleading information and it just proves my point that the Anti Swap Group is very misinformed. Then again, their angle has been to derail the truth of the benefits of growth in our small town. Yes a referendum does cost us tax payers.

If we have referendums each time a decision has to be made then, why have a mayor? why have council? why have city staff? why have policeman? Etc. Why have civil servants in any community? The majority residents elected these individuals to make the tough decisions and to help correct the past mistakes that have cost Summerland to go into an economic crisis. We elected these individuals and have trust in these individuals, because we want to have GROWTH in Summerland. We elected these individuals because we are completely frustrated seeing Summerland go downhill.

To me it seems a certain group (Stop The Swap) some members, if they don’t get their way (like a temper tantrum) they demand a referendum. “Oh we don’t like what toilet paper they are using in our parks and rec lets have a referendum” (laughing) Historically these particular members that have been anti growth for 30 years or more, have always resorted to this type of behaviour. Realize that Summerland has to make some smart changes and this is a logical step into progress and majority hope that that this proposal does go through.

[twobits]

I honestly don’t know where you get your information from, but again your spreading misleading information and it just proves my point that the Anti Swap Group is very misinformed. Then again, their angle has been to derail the truth of the benefits of growth in our small town. Yes a referendum does cost us tax payers.

If we have referendums each time a decision has to be made then, why have a mayor? why have council? why have city staff? why have policeman? Etc. Why have civil servants in any community? The majority residents elected these individuals to make the tough decisions and to help correct the past mistakes that have cost Summerland to go into an economic crisis. We elected these individuals and have trust in these individuals, because we want to have GROWTH in Summerland. We elected these individuals because we are completely frustrated seeing Summerland go downhill.

To me it seems a certain group (Stop The Swap) some members, if they don’t get their way (like a temper tantrum) they demand a referendum. “Oh we don’t like what toilet paper they are using in our parks and rec lets have a referendum” (laughing) Historically these particular members that have been anti growth for 30 years or more, have always resorted to this type of behaviour. Realize that Summerland has to make some smart changes and this is a logical step into progress and majority hope that that this proposal does go through.

Referendums that are called in conjunction with a civic election cost nothing more than perhaps a slightly larger piece of paper and the ink required to pose the question. Certain interests may buy advertising space to promote their view but that is not a taxpayer expense. Referendums are appropriate in cases such as this where direction is being sought. They are not appropriate for decisions on toilet paper or taxation issues.
Referendum weakness, or the arguments against them are twofold. First, and the one you point out, is that these are democratically elected individuals that the community chose to make decisions for a 3 yr term. One cannot cherry pick each decision that they might face and "want to get involved". You have the opportunity in 3 yrs to remove them if the majority of decisions do not agree with you line of reasoning. The second and probably biggest flaw to referendums, and elections in general, is voter engagement and knowledge. This is a centuries old problem of disengagement and apathy that Sir Winston Churchill so aptly summarized as "The biggest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter".
However weak the referendum option might be, it is the best option we have to obtain a community consensus. If you should think of a better way to get everyone eligible to vote, and be informed as well, please do share.

[GIS_Dude]

Calm down with the rhetoric NextGen, I am not spreading misleading information and please don't try and pigeon hole me into one of the camps on this issue. I've gone to great lengths to keep my personal position on the issue out of my comments. I am merely suggesting a cost effective, timely and fair way to resolve the issue at hand. I whole heartedly agree with you and others that council is elected to do a job and generally the electorate should stand down and let them get on with business. But as you are undoubtedly aware, Summerland is somewhat of an anomally with respect to the passion that some issues seem to elicit and this appears to be another of those. If we were at the beginning or in the middle of a municipal term and this issue was indeed time sensitive, then yes absolutely, man up and make the decision and go forward...but we are at the end of what has been a rocky term for the current council anyways so why not take it to the electorate and let the people decide. Then the new council can take the issue to the next level or not as the case may be, without any further delay or discussion from either side.

The issue of the land swap itself is not time sensitive in the short term as there are plenty of building lots currently available in Summerland and it is certainly not hindering the mythical "growth" that some are railing on about. Even if the application were to go ahead today, it would be years before anything would be developed on the lands in question assuming the ALR even gives the application any credence. Given the lands in question for the proposed swap, I don't think that the ALR approval the proposal is a slam dunk or even very likely, as to me this is a net down of ALR lands rather than a swap. The proposed lands for inclusion are not comparable in terms of agriculture potential to the lands proposed for extraction and I don't think anyone can reasonably argue otherwise without a really large set of blinders for one side or the other. However it is what it is and regardless of which side one might be on, there are many perfecty valid municipal financial and planning based reasons to propose this swap from the district taxpayer perspective. I think we can all agree that growth is only going to occur with more long term jobs that pay more than the other myth - a "living wage". I understand that the housing construction industry generates a lot of decent income jobs (including a significant portion of my own current income), but at the end of the day without other industry and commercial enterprises to supply jobs that generate sufficient incomes to buy all those houses, condos & apartments, it is ultimately a loop that will close in and choke itself off.

The issue of voter apathy that some folks have brought up is indeed a very valid one, but it has always been that way and for better or worse that is how a democratic jurisdiction has to operate. Many people in Canada vote for a federal government to manage and guide a ~2 trillion dollar gdp economy based on nothing more than the color of the party campaign propaganda, the photogenics of the leader or the latest negative attack ad spin campaign. Those amongst us that understand and attempt to educate themselves on the issues will probably always be in the minority, but I would like to think that as long as we try to keep our citizens engaged in the process, that we have a chance as a democratic society in the big picture.

[*m*e*g*s*]

Referendum/Council voting aside, I'm noticing a trend among those "for" and those "against," and that is an argument about which needs to come first: industry or diversity in residential housing. (ie. not only 55+, affordable starter homes etc.)
While I've done my homework as far as the advantages/disadvantages of having rural farmland riddled through town, I am struggling to figure out the arguments to bring in industry first, and then bring is residences.
As a small town, we have little to offer young families in ways of social programs, local healthcare (hospital to have babies etc), our high school enrolment is down etc etc.
If we were to have the opportunity to bring in industry before diversity in housing, what kind of industry is being suggested and where? If we are successful, do we then address building houses? And then how will we address the fact that our downtown core has farmland within walking distance to grocery stores and coffee shops and residences on the outskirts?
These questions just don't seem to be addressed by the "Stop the Swappers." While I support the urban growth strategy, I'm still more than willing to listen to suggestions on industrial growth if that will help our town grow in a more sustainable way. With our population holding a large number of retired and elderly and the average cost of a single family home being 300,00+ I just don't see how industry will come first. Why invest somewhere with little basic services and an elderly population? If there are no decent, affordable homes, where will the workers come to live? I think we need industry for certain, just not neccesarily before housing in our urban core. Here's hoping Summerland can find a balance between the two, and make the correct choice in what will be the right "jumping-off" point.
As far as a referendum, regardless of cost, people on both sides of the issue need to be informed PROPERLY. I am disgusted at the amount of rhetoric I'm hearing and the mean-spirited arguments, comments and opinion that is getting thrown around. If a referendum will not cost us tax payers more money and will have more sway with the ALR provincially then perhaps it is a good move. The problem with that, as stated above, is that people won't necessarily be informed as to the reasoning behind what is being propsed. "The council are looking to make big bucks" and "save our food source" and "the farmer's shouldn't be able to make a profit selling to developpers" I hear CONSTANTLY and are incredibly frustrating statements. I digress....
I will again attend the open house, and this time I will stand up and speak at the meeting. I hope to hear more people in favour stand to speak and hopefully more accurate information will be presented.

[NextGen]

As far as I am concerned The City has done there job over and beyond and has taken such hostile comments from this Anti Swap group. Puzzling, all of us residents here in Summerland that want Growth, that wanted our voices heard we participated in the surveys, open houses and strategy planning in a year and half long process. Our voices don’t count? Our opinions on that survey don't count? How is that democratic? Still the City is now having another open house, and other public meeting I think that this shows that they care about ALL Summerland residents.

Here are the links if you forgot what the city has done for its locals

http://futuresummerland.com/

http://www.summerland.ca/docs/docs_forms/reports/Urban%20Growth%20Strategy%20Q&A.pdf

http://summerlandchamber.wordpress.com/tag/urban-growth-strategy/

Its really truly sad that those of us that are going to be around the next 50 years are being held back for future growth by a loud aggressive minority group (the old boys club).

I hope that many of those that have been listening to rumors or misinformation go to the open house and learn the truth that this could be a great plan and one of the many great ideas on Growing Summerland and planning in a healthy way.

We no longer want houses beside Orchards, we don’t want to have those pesticides contaminating the air that our kids and grandparents have to breathe and endure. And please remember this is not all the ALR land we have 7000 acres of land and this is just a small parcel. Housing should be in the inside core and orchards should be on the outside. Common sense, you would think.

As Dr. Phil would put it, “has it been working for our town of Summerland” no it hasn’t. Only a few Summerland are independently wealthy. Stop being so selfish share the wealth. Start by hiring locals instead of temp foreign workers. Enough is enough we need some smart planning. The Old way is not the right way, hasn’t been for years.

Going back to a real concern I have with Councillor Waterman, how is he allowed to not have an open mind during this whole process and the other Councillors have to? Where is his democratic oath to our community to listen to both sides? This is a “crazy old boys club” that is so prevalent in this town for years and people are not going to take it anymore.

[rustled]

The issue of voter apathy that some folks have brought up is indeed a very valid one, but it has always been that way and for better or worse that is how a democratic jurisdiction has to operate.

Then why not try something new? If you really want to poll the public during the election, you could do that without making it binding. And you could do it in a way that actually gauges true voter interest. Ask a simple question, e.g.

Are you in favour of the proposed land swap?

Be sure to include at least three answers, e.g.:

Yes, No, and I have no opinion.

Let's say 80% of those who show up at the polling station choose to answer the question, and of this 80%

30% say "no"
15% say "yes"
55% say "I don't care one way or the other"

Now, your newly elected council will know there's no point in doing something just because it seems like "the popular choice."

30% of 80% will be put out if the swap goes ahead (24% of those who actually showed up to vote)
15% of 80% will be put out if the swap doesn't (12% of those who showed up)
55% of the 80% plus the remaining 20% who chose not to answer the question (so 64% of those who showed up), plus all of the people who didn't show up at the polling station, really don't much care.

In other words, the vast majority won't be put out if the council does their homework and makes a rational decision.