Question to theists.

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
1nick
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Re: Question to theists.

Post by 1nick »

Geckonidae wrote:Hey, if you tell me that you have experienced living inside of a fish, that's apparently all the evidence I should need.



That's right.Now fall in line.
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Re: Question to theists.

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steven lloyd wrote:Experience is evidence jenny. Surely you can acknowledge that. Just like your example of testing the theory of gravity by stepping off a ledge. It is what we would experience or observe that gives us evidence to support the theory. I know what I know because of learning and experience – as do you.


The difference is if we both step off a ledge we will both experience gravity. That's becasue it's a real thing. God is not.
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Re: Question to theists.

Post by I Think »

Lots of responses, but no one comes close to actually answering the question, which is

Where is your,
substantiated, quantifiable, peer reviewed, logical evidence,
that any god(s) exist?


If you declaim that a mystical invisible being exists, then the onus of proof is on you.
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steven lloyd
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Re: Question to theists.

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jennylives wrote: The difference is if we both step off a ledge we will both experience gravity. That's becasue it's a real thing. God is not.

That's right. The difference is you have not experienced everything and have no idea what other people might have experienced - but in spite of that you've arrived at your own conclusions for everyone. I don't understand why it is so important for you to know that God (not to be confused with any religious archetype) or whatever you want to call it is not present or does not exist. Is the idea somehow a threat to you ? I'm certainly not threatened by your disbelief.
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steven lloyd
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Re: Question to theists.

Post by steven lloyd »

Nibs wrote: If you declaim that a mystical invisible being exists, then the onus of proof is on you.

At least it would be if I cared what you believed in this regard.

p.s. I make no claims regarding mystical invisible beings (LOLOL)
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Re: Question to theists.

Post by Poindexter »

Nibs wrote:Where is your,
substantiated, quantifiable, peer reviewed, logical evidence,
that any god(s) exist?


As Bill Maher would say, "faith: the purposeful suspension of critical thinking."

So your question is flawed because none of those are requirements for belief.
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Re: Question to theists.

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steven lloyd wrote:That's right. The difference is you have not experienced everything and have no idea what other people might have experienced - but in spite of that you've arrived at your own conclusions for everyone. I don't understand why it is so important for you to know that God (not to be confused with any religious archetype) or whatever you want to call it is not present or does not exist. Is the idea somehow a threat to you ? I'm certainly not threatened by your disbelief.


I'm not threatened at all by what anyone believes. I am interested in discussing religion in general, always have been. It fascinates me how people can accept there is a deity that has no evidence to support it. And considering the wacky things your brain can make you think and see and feel I do not accept personal experience as evidence.
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Re: Question to theists.

Post by I Think »

So your question is flawed because none of those are requirements for belief


Not so, if interested in why someone {anyone} believes as they do, that is the question I would have asked.
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Re: Question to theists.

Post by janalta »

That one always makes me laugh...;prove that god doesn't exist. It's the go-to comeback for those who have absolutely no credible, tangible or adequate evidence that something does exist.
The proof of existence has to come from those making the claim. Non-existence can not be proven because there is no absolute evidence of something that isn't there.

Can I claim with 100% accuracy that no god of any kind exists ? No....but the same can also be said about theists as well - it is not logical to think that somewhere, somehow, amongst knowledge of things we can not yet grasp - there may well be proof that he doesn't.
It is a lot more logical however, to assume that something that can not be seen, heard, touched or experienced physically...something that has absolutely no solid physical or scientific proof or evidence to back it...probably isn't really there.
If someone shows me the remains of Bigfoot...and it has been scientifically authenticated and verified...then, I will believe in Bigfoot.

Personal experience is not proof of anything...except of a personal experience that you can't really explain, so it must have been god. The human mind is a mystical and mysterious place sometimes. A powerful, emotional experience may be explained by some as spiritual and inner enlightenment....while the same experience will be described as others as the presence of god.

I used to have horrifically realistic nightmares about some sort of evil entity trying to take me away....it was terrifying - I would wake up screaming, crying...afraid to close my eyes. It was a full mind and body experience...it did not feel like a dream...it felt real.
Do I believe that some satanic creature exists because of my very real personal experience ? Nope....it usually happened during periods of great stress and turmoil in my life and my overactive brain was messing with me.
Would some people believe without a doubt that it was real ? Absolutely.

As for being afraid of god and religion....quite honestly, I think religious folks have a whole lot more to be afraid of than us non theists do. Nothing is up there judging us, we don't have to try to live up to unrealistic expectations...and we don't live under the threat of an eternity of torture if we're not perfect. :O)
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steven lloyd
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Re: Question to theists.

Post by steven lloyd »

That one always makes me laugh. As soon as someone points out the logical flaw in the argument that if cannot be proven it cannot exist you are labelled as religious and all kinds of assumptions made of your understanding and experience. Funny.

Yes, if I was trying to prove something existed the onus would be on me to provide verifiable evidence. Of course, if I really cared I’d ask to see if you could prove God doesn’t exist – just for the fun of it you understand because we’re being so logical.
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Re: Question to theists.

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steven lloyd wrote:That one always makes me laugh. As soon as someone points out the logical flaw in the argument that if cannot be proven it cannot exist you are labelled as religious and all kinds of assumptions made of your understanding and experience. Funny.

Yes, if I was trying to prove something existed the onus would be on me to provide verifiable evidence. Of course, if I really cared I’d ask to see if you could prove God doesn’t exist – just for the fun of it you understand because we’re being so logical.


Actually I never labelled you or anyone else as religious...never even mentioned the word in my post.

So, you are in fact saying that the millions of Christians, Islams, Jews and anyone else who just knows that god exists....are on the hook to provide proof of that existence.

There is nothing logical about those who simply say...I have faith, I believe, the proof is all around us, I don't need proof - I just know. Nothing.
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steven lloyd
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Re: Question to theists.

Post by steven lloyd »

janalta wrote: There is nothing logical about those who simply say...I have faith, I believe, the proof is all around us, I don't need proof - I just know. Nothing.

There is nothing logical about this argument at all. There is no sound logical argument to prove the existence of God, just as there is no sound logical argument to disprove His existence. This stuff is first year philosophy and the only point I have really wanted to make. I find myself wondering what the real motive in pushing the argument along these lines might be.
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Re: Question to theists.

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Geckonidae wrote:Great example Average Joe. A stone was quarried in Scotland, used for fancy ceremonies, and at some point someone made up a story about the stone coming from the Middle East. What quarry in Scotland? St. Columba around 500 A.D. brought it from Ireland to Iona Island on the West Coast of Scotland where 38 Scottish Kings were crowned on it. Geological evidence tells us that the stone would not have come from the Middle East, but apparently while it was there (even though it wasn't) it was use as a pillow by a guy named Jacob who had a dream about angels. Jacob or later name change to Israel had a vision of what will happen to his ancestors. Also the quarry that the stone is from near Bethel Israel where Jacob/Israel had his dream on the Scared Stone.

Is there any evidence outside of the Bible that this Jacob guy even existed? Ah, a nation called Israel today.Is there any evidence that a stone like this could have come from the Middle East? Yes, numerous people have made the trek to the quarry near Bethel. Bethel means God's House in Hebrew.Do you know the difference between a credible source of information and a crazy person with a website? I quote some websites from Israel and Britannica Encyclopedia. I think they are reliable enough.
Last edited by averagejoe on Jul 4th, 2014, 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question to theists.

Post by hobbyguy »

What gets muddled is the difference between religion and the possible existence of a power, continuum, existence or whatever label you choose, and religions.

Religions are a different kettle of fish as they always morph into a way to control people. It is probably easiest to recognize that if you look at religions that have not been brought up with. far more difficult if you look at religions that you have been exposed to while growing up.

The potential existence of a something that transcends human existence? That is a vexing question, and one that requires "us" getting over our own innate arrogance, and recognizing our own ignorance and limitations.

The ancient Greeks postulated the atom. They had no proof and despite being one of the civilizations that elevated logic. accepted the idea. We have been able to "prove" that atoms exist.

How many of us understand what the heck a Higg's boson is, and what the heck it does? Not me. But I accept that scientists have "proven" that it exists. That acceptance is based on my "faith" that those scientists know what they are doing and are being truthful. I certainly can't examine their papers/methods/results and make a judgement as to whether or not they are correct, or simply found what their expectations lead them to.

So "we" have gone from the Greeks postulating the atom as the smallest particle, to electrons, protons and neutrons, and down to quarks and bosons, and to the smallest particle - the Higg's boson - but wait! - now "techni-quarks" are postulated as smaller than the Higg's boson. And I accept all of that, based on my faith in science that is beyond my understanding.

In order to "prove" or "disprove" the existence of a transcending something, we, as individuals, would have to be able to understand everything. I'm not there. "We" aren't there.

There are a couple of things that that are fairly clear. "We" have a desire to make "sense" of things. That means that we have to have faith (for lack of a better expression) in some regime of thought. The question posed implies a faith and belief in science and the scientific method. I subscribe to that faith and belief in science, but I also do so conditionally. Science has evolved, and continues to evolve precisely because it is an abstract human invention designed to help us understand our human experiences. All human inventions have limitations.

Science can not measure everything. Twenty years ago we could not do the measurements needed to prove or disprove the existence of the Higg's boson. The lack of evidence and proof of existence of the Higg's boson did not turn out be evidence of the Higg's boson not existing. And just because I don't understand the Higg's boson, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And who knows, maybe in twenty years we will find out that the Higg's boson is a conglomeration of a half dozen different types of "techni-quarks", and so on.

From the small to the large. Virtually every culture has a creation myth. The science culture seems to have settled on the "big bang" theory. From nothing comes everything in one big explosion. That's not a far cry from every other creation myth's basis, and seems just about as logical.

Something from nothing.

There is indeed a lot more that we don't know than we do know. That leaves a lot of room.

So I'll stick to the agnostic position and basically continue to believe that there is something overarching, and that it may "prove" to be outside of the realms of possibility for science, logic, and human understanding. Infinite chaos is too big for me.
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Re: Question to theists.

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Many Israelite names show up in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. This from the deportation of Israelites from the Northern 10 tribe Nation of Israel in the around 612 B.C. by the Assyrians. (10 Tribes or know as the Lost Sheep of Israel) To be freed later by Scythians who destroyed the Assyrian Empire about 90 years later. Also the Nation of Judah ( 2 Tribes, Benjamen and Judah were taken into captivity by the Babylonians.)
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