Question to theists.

[hobbyguy]

Averagejoe - the statement "God's chosen people" is the source of a great deal of very bad things.

As soon as you start to think you are "God's" or "Allah's" or "Krishna's" or "Baal's" etc. chosen people - then the only decent thing about religion goes right out the window.

I know that lots of folks would like to think that they are "the chosen ones", and that is a real lever of manipulation. Who decides who is "chosen"? At the bottom of those things is always someone like Jim Jones - although often not quite so obvious.

[janalta]

Oh dear Joe....all you have provided is a history lesson about Jews and a rock.
The only proof that the Jews are god's chosen people is ancient religious text....written by men...not god.
The only proof that Jesus was any sort of messiah or son of god is, again, religious text written by men, not god.
Read the Book of Mormon....written proof that Jesus came back and hung around in North America. The only proof is a book written by men....oops, nope...by one man, not by god.

( and..make up your mind on what you believe, because if you believe in the Jewish faith and that they are god's chosen people....then you don't believe in Jesus )

I still have no idea what a rock has to do with proving god exists.....that's the best god can produce? A magic rock ?? Pretty anticlimactic .

I do believe, if you want to do some more cutting and pasting of links....enough research will give you lots of proof that Mormons are god's chosen people. Oh...nope, wait...Jehovah's Witnesses are gods chosen people. Oh crap....no...it's Catholics. But, the Jews said it first...so it much be them.

Every person out there who believes in their own religion, well, religiously, believes that they are the one true church of god.
They can't all be right.....which means that all the others are blindly following the wrong church.
Or...they all are.

[zzontar]

Averagejoe - the statement "God's chosen people" is the source of a great deal of very bad things.

As soon as you start to think you are "God's" or "Allah's" or "Krishna's" or "Baal's" etc. chosen people - then the only decent thing about religion goes right out the window.

I know that lots of folks would like to think that they are "the chosen ones", and that is a real lever of manipulation. Who decides who is "chosen"? At the bottom of those things is always someone like Jim Jones - although often not quite so obvious.

I've said it before... IMO anything in the bible that favors any group or individual was probably thrown in by that group or individual.

[averagejoe]

Oh dear Joe....all you have provided is a history lesson about Jews and a rock.
The only proof that the Jews are god's chosen people is ancient religious text....written by men...not god.
The only proof that Jesus was any sort of messiah or son of god is, again, religious text written by men, not god.
Read the Book of Mormon....written proof that Jesus came back and hung around in North America. The only proof is a book written by men....oops, nope...by one man, not by god.

( and..make up your mind on what you believe, because if you believe in the Jewish faith and that they are god's chosen people....then you don't believe in Jesus )

I still have no idea what a rock has to do with proving god exists.....that's the best god can produce? A magic rock ?? Pretty anticlimactic .

I do believe, if you want to do some more cutting and pasting of links....enough research will give you lots of proof that Mormons are god's chosen people. Oh...nope, wait...Jehovah's Witnesses are gods chosen people. Oh crap....no...it's Catholics. But, the Jews said it first...so it much be them.

Every person out there who believes in their own religion, well, religiously, believes that they are the one true church of god.
They can't all be right.....which means that all the others are blindly following the wrong church.
Or...they all are.

Oh dear janalta....all you have provided is nothing at all. Except an opinion. That rock has been around alot longer than you have. It's has been held in trust since Jacob/Israel. 3500 years as a reminder to the Israelite people of the visionary dream from God. As a matter of fact, during World War 2 the German's were going to possibly invade England under operation Sea Lion. The Government of Britain had plans to move King George VI, The Crown Jewels and that rock. Why would they move that rock, if it didn't mean anything?
Solomon's Temple was built by King Solomon to house the Ark of the Covenant which carried the 10 Commandments written by God.
God has shown himself to Prophets, Kings of Israel and others as recorded by the Levites The Priestly Tribe of Israel and written in the Holy Bible. I really don't think God is going show up on an atheists doorstep any time soon?

[averagejoe]

Averagejoe - the statement "God's chosen people" is the source of a great deal of very bad things.

As soon as you start to think you are "God's" or "Allah's" or "Krishna's" or "Baal's" etc. chosen people - then the only decent thing about religion goes right out the window.

I know that lots of folks would like to think that they are "the chosen ones", and that is a real lever of manipulation. Who decides who is "chosen"? At the bottom of those things is always someone like Jim Jones - although often not quite so obvious.

Do these God's you talk about call their follows "Chosen"? The God of Israel called his people chosen. Jesus backs up the claim when he said on his earthly mission that he only came for the "Lost Sheep of Israel" and Jesus commanded his Apostles to go onto only the "Lost Sheep of Israel. Except one who went to preach to gentiles. So the Levites recorded God's promises to the Israelite's and then when they fell astray 1500 years after Jacob/Israel, he sent his son Jesus to bring them back into the fold.

You forgot to mention satan is a god to many young people these days.

[janalta]

Joe....correct, all I was doing was providing my opinion.
The fact is though that religious text is not proof of god in any way, shape or form. They are nothing but books written by men... books of hearsay, myths and stories.
The ten commandments were the word of god.....as told in a story book written by men.
God did not right those stone tablets....a man did. He just told people that god spoke to him.....what proof is there of that ? None.
Prophets say god speaks to them and shows himself to them....funny how he never does it in public, when there are millions of people around to witness it.
Nope, always one on one....so the only proof is just one guy's say so.
One has to be pretty gullible to believe it.

I don't care how old a rock is....it's still just a rock. The fact that people have been worshipping a rock for centuries because they believe stories about it only goes to show how ridiculous religion really is.

[cutter7]

Thiests are the only ones with a plausible theory on how inert matter came to life. Until science can explain how inert matter can spring to life I will side with intelligent design.

[Geckonidae]

Do you know the difference between a credible source of information and a crazy person with a website? I quote some websites from Israel and Britannica Encyclopedia. I think they are reliable enough.

The encyclopedia Britannica article refers to a LEGEND about the stone being Jabob's pillow. The one relatively reliable source you have cited does not support your argument. Geologists have proven that the rock is of the same composition as other rocks in Scone...not the Middle East. It's pretty obvious though, you only care about sources of information that appear to agree with what you already believe. Most of the sites that you link seem like bad fan fiction. Try looking at some of this information objectively. There are ancient scrolls that mention an ark, but they actually say different things about it. So right off the bat, why are these accounts inconsistent? You have an ancient story telling you that a temple was built to house the ark. The fact that a temple exists now, that may or may not be the temple from the story, does not in any way confirm that an ark was ever in that temple.

Seriously... read some of this stuff again.

I'm not going to bother going through any of your other replies. It's pretty clear you can't accept information that you don't already agree with.

[Geckonidae]

Thiests are the only ones with a plausible theory on how inert matter came to life. Until science can explain how inert matter can spring to life I will side with intelligent design.

So your God is the "God of the Gaps". When you define your God based on what science cannot yet explain, you are defining a God who's "power" diminishes every time science provides us with a new answer. Just think about all of the scientific explanations that you accept, yet a theist from 5 or 10 centuries ago would have attributed these things to a God. That God used to perform miracles and talk to people through burning bushes...what has he done lately? I don't think you even worship the same God as a Christian from 1000 years ago.

Also, theists don't have a "plausible theory", they have a story.

[cutter7]

A story? ok.. I believe in creation, you believe we evolved from rocks and sludge. I won't try to tell you how crazy your version sounds in comparison.

[janalta]

A story? ok.. I believe in creation, you believe we evolved from rocks and sludge. I won't try to tell you how crazy your version sounds in comparison.

No...please don't. it would only serve to make you look even more ignorant and uneducated about the actual principles behind science and theories.

The bible isn't a theory....like it or not, it is a compilation of stories.

Every culture since humans developed the ability to think, reason and express themselves had come up stories, myths and tales of the mythical and mystical forces ( gods , sky people, spirits) who created the earth. These stories came about because there was no real knowledge of science at the time.
The Jewish and Christian versions are no more factual.

[Geckonidae]

A story? ok.. I believe in creation, you believe we evolved from rocks and sludge. I won't try to tell you how crazy your version sounds in comparison.

Yes, creationism is all based on a story. Do you actually have any evidence? Do you have anything other than stories from an old book?

And don't assume that you know what I believe. I don't actually have any firm belief with respect to abiogenesis, I don't need those answers to get through my daily life. I think the concept of the magic sky wizard is absurd. I also think "aliens did it" is a silly explanation. Science hasn't given us the answer yet. Maybe it happened at a hydro-thermal vent, maybe it started on an asteroid that crashed on Earth. I don't know, and I'm OK with not knowing. Knowing the details would be cool, but I'm not so desperate for an answer that I need to latch onto a fairy tale.

If creationism is such a key part of your faith, what would it do to your faith if scientists found these answers, and God wasn't part of the equation?

[cutter7]

So you have no clue how life began yet you mock peoples beliefs? why do people do that?

yes, I know the bible tells a story, some stories it took science years to prove true.. e.g. the book of job which was written over 3000 years ago told us god hung the earth in space on nothing and it was oval shaped was years ahead of science.. we still had people in the 1400s thinking you would sail off the earth.

Its ok,, I will still attempt to live my life to the teachings of the new testament ,, if I am wrong there is no harm or loss.

you keep watering your pet rocks until they grow gills.

[Geckonidae]

you keep watering your pet rocks until they grow gills.

I believe that was hilarious. My evidence was the beverage I nearly spit out when I laughed. Need peer review to know if it's repeatable.

[janalta]

So you have no clue how life began yet you mock peoples beliefs? why do people do that?

yes, I know the bible tells a story, some stories it took science years to prove true.. e.g. the book of job which was written over 3000 years ago told us god hung the earth in space on nothing and it was oval shaped was years ahead of science.. we still had people in the 1400s thinking you would sail off the earth.

Its ok,, I will still attempt to live my life to the teachings of the new testament ,, if I am wrong there is no harm or loss.

you keep watering your pet rocks until they grow gills.

I suppose for the same reason you just did....again ?

BTW - The earth is not oval shaped. It is also not 'hung' anywhere. The fact that people still thought the world was flat 1500 years after it was called an oval hung in space clearly shows a complete lack of scientific knowledge in both cases...and that both were nothing but uneducated guesses.

Your complete lack of knowledge of science and evolution in the year 2014 is quite astounding really.
Just imagine the harm if everyone in the past 3000 years had the same attitude....god made everything, we need no scientific explanations