A short commentary on preordained destiny

[fluffy]

So there's this guy named John working in his store one day when he hears this booming voice from above that says, "John, sell your store." He ignores it.
But after weeks of being harassed, he relents and sells his store. The voice says, "John, take the $3 million to Las Vegas."
He obeys, and goes to a casino. The voice says "John, go to the blackjack table and put it all down on one hand." He's dealt a 19. The dealer has a six showing. "Take a card"
"What? The dealer has a si..."
"Take. A. Card."
He gets an ace. "Take another card"
"But I have 20!"
"Take another card!" Scared, John says "Hit me." He gets another ace...21. The voice says, "Un-freaking-believable"

[annexi]

What a curious post. Take home message is what OP?

Reminds me of a newly-aware entity 'testing' the observation that its will and preordained destiny are one and the same -hence the near incredulity.

[Glacier]

It's a joke, man. You don't get it?

My apologies to any Calvinists here, but the idea of preordained destiny wrong on so many levels, and that's no joke. The whole concept is based upon one chapter in the Bible that John Calvin totally misinterpreted. Even though predestination runs counter to the idea of free-will and the rest of the Bible, some people put more weight in that one chapter (taken out of context) than the rest of the Bible that says the opposite.

[I Think]

The bottom line is that the bible has very little relevance today, except as a book that has caused more chaos than perhaps any other in the history of humanity.

[fluffy]

The bottom line is that the bible has very little relevance today...

I disagree. As a guide for morality and self-honesty the concepts in the Bible are timeless in nature. They may be more in need today than ever as ideas like compassion and selflessness lose ground to self-interest at the expense of society's down-trodden and disenfranchised.

It's not the Bible that causes chaos, but the manipulation of it by those with the aforementioned selfish agendas. Again to the idea loosely veiled in the opening post, we have been gifted with free will, and with that gift comes the responsibility to use it ethically. It's a sad truth that for every unethical person willing to bend biblical lessons and concepts to selfish means, there are many more willing to follow. How often do you hear the words "God's will" attached to situations that are of completely human invention?

[OREZ]

It's a joke, man. You don't get it?

My apologies to any Calvinists here, but the idea of preordained destiny wrong on so many levels, and that's no joke. The whole concept is based upon one chapter in the Bible that John Calvin totally misinterpreted. Even though predestination runs counter to the idea of free-will and the rest of the Bible, some people put more weight in that one chapter (taken out of context) than the rest of the Bible that says the opposite.

First of all, I'm not a Calvinist. But I'm curious to know where you're coming from on this...

Which chapter?

What is free will based on? (Scripturally, that is)

Can God be truly sovereign and man truly have free will at the same time? Please explain.

[OREZ]

The bottom line is that the bible has very little relevance today, except as a book that has caused more chaos than perhaps any other in the history of humanity.

No, in this case the bottom line is that you're off topic as usual. But if you really think so, why are you wasting your time in commenting?

[Glacier]

First of all, I'm not a Calvinist. But I'm curious to know where you're coming from on this...

Which chapter?

What is free will based on? (Scripturally, that is)

Can God be truly sovereign and man truly have free will at the same time? Please explain.

Can God be truly sovereign and man truly have free will at the same time? I think we would all agree that everyone has the free will to go eat a chocolate bar right now, so I assume by "free will" you mean free to choose one's spiritual journey, which would impact their spiritual destination. The answer is "yes," but you are asking me to explain things that make my head explode.

The sovereign God is in control of all things, but at the same time you and I are given free will to choose good from evil. A sovereign God can also foreknow who would do what, but the ball is still in your court to make a choice.

If God truly loves us, he would give us free-will just as we give our children the freedom to choose (if we truly love them).

By Calvinism, I mean TULIP:

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

This means that no man or woman can be saved without God's help, and no man that God chooses to be save can be lost. Once you are saved by God, you are always saved. If you "backslide" into depravity, then you were never saved to begin with (sounds a bit like circular reasoning to me).

The chapter I'm talking about is Romans 9. You can view a good history of and rebuttal on predestination here: http://allthingsfulfilled.com/Israeland ... nation.pdf