RCMP Costs

[Donald G]

The last thing that any town wants is a police force that is governed by local politicians. That's where "can't touch" criminals are born and raised. Also where cutting police services to meet budget restraints due to "other projects" being given priority comes from.

People who support the idea that Kelowna should have its own police force have little to no idea if what all is involved in planning for and carrying out the delivery of police services to a community.

[fluffy]

I tend to agree Donald. The rank-and-file citizenry know little of law enforcement, invariably allowing either for an overly permissive, overly liberal approach, or a bean-counting cost focused approach or some combination of the two. While these approaches may be well meaning at their roots, this is an atmosphere within which the less scrupulous can thrive.

[twobits]

I tend to agree Donald. The rank-and-file citizenry know little of law enforcement, invariably allowing either for an overly permissive, overly liberal approach, or a bean-counting cost focused approach or some combination of the two. While these approaches may be well meaning at their roots, this is an atmosphere within which the less scrupulous can thrive.

Generally I do have to agree with your statement. I do however also believe that the RCMP have little accountability to the communities they serve. Cost control just does not seem to enter into any of their equations. The demands for their lavish buildings and putting disciplined officers on paid leave for years are two prime examples of why people start to talk back and consider the possibility of alternative policing models.

[Donald G]

To twobits ...

Like every occupation; "when you contract the services of a frog, the warts come with it".

[twobits]

To twobits ...

Like every occupation; "when you contract the services of a frog, the warts come with it".

To Donald

And sometimes the frog, with appropriate motivation and guidance can become a prince......without the warts.

[twobits]

To Donald

I would like to expand on a previous comment. Since you clearly have RCMP roots, or something close to that.....query me this. If an RCMP member is facing disciplinary actions, personal conduct investigation, stress leave due to harassment or otherwise, they can be on full pay with benefits for years on end.....all out of the budget of the affected City's tax budget.
If the RCMP brass even pretended to be taxpayer conscious, this policy would either change or the budget implications of the member suspended would come out of the Head Office budget and not be borne by the community paying a salary for a cop at home and not on their streets doing the job they are being paid for.

[Donald G]

To twobits ...

I'm not sure how it is today but after a given short period of time a "sick or injured" police officer would be taken off of the Municipal Cost Collator and placed on a Federal Off Duty Sick cost collator. I believe that the City would actually save money by not having to pay for that officer while they are "unfit for duty". In the same way that the City would not pay for positions that the RCMP did not have the resources to fill for a period of time.

The City only pays for what it actually gets.

I know of some Municipal RCMP contracts that, with the consent of the City, used such shortages to pay the overtime needed to fill such positions on each watch.

I may be corrected but I think that that is still the way it works.

P.S. I DO NOT, IN ANY WAY, PROFESS TO SPEAK FOR THE RCMP. I have a police background but speak only as a Canadian Citizen with a continuing strong interest in matters relating to the police and policing.

[Drip_Torch]

And sometimes the frog, with appropriate motivation and guidance can become a prince......without the warts.

Hmm, I've always struggled with fairy tales, fallacies and fictions, but correct me if I'm wrong... all that really takes is the kiss of a princess - doesn't it?

[twobits]

Hmm, I've always struggled with fairy tales, fallacies and fictions, but correct me if I'm wrong... all that really takes is the kiss of a princess - doesn't it?

Yes....and that would fall under "appropriate motivation". Efforts beyond a kiss to create a KIng bring the scrutiny of PETA and embarrassing charges of beastiality.

[twobits]

To twobits ...

I'm not sure how it is today but after a given short period of time a "sick or injured" police officer would be taken off of the Municipal Cost Collator and placed on a Federal Off Duty Sick cost collator. I believe that the City would actually save money by not having to pay for that officer while they are "unfit for duty". In the same way that the City would not pay for positions that the RCMP did not have the resources to fill for a period of time.

The City only pays for what it actually gets.

I know of some Municipal RCMP contracts that, with the consent of the City, used such shortages to pay the overtime needed to fill such positions on each watch.

I may be corrected but I think that that is still the way it works.

P.S. I DO NOT, IN ANY WAY, PROFESS TO SPEAK FOR THE RCMP. I have a police background but speak only as a Canadian Citizen with a continuing strong interest in matters relating to the police and policing.

Sorry Donald but I think you are mistaken. Not positive so will also stand corrected if required. I based my comments on the recent incidents in Kelowna of the kick to the head. I am sure I recall the boss being quoted in a news article that the Kelowna detachment was short two bodies because of long term disciplinary suspensions and those positions could not be replaced because they were still salary hits to the local budget.
I think you might be thinking of long term medical leave where a disability insurance kicks in and covers the local budget.

[Donald G]

To twobits ...

I am not sure what you mean by "can not be replaced". What I meant was that the RCMP would not ship another person in the permanently fill the vacant position, but that they could fill it on a day by day basis using money saved by that and other vacancies.

I would be some irate to find that, as a Municipal taxpayer, I was paying for an officer who was not available for work due to misconduct. That includes;

1. An officer transferred out and not yet replaced.
2. An officer seconded to a location or project outside of the Municipality that had nothing to do with the Municipality.
3. An officer suspended from duty, with or without pay.
4, An officer on extended sick leave.
5. A newly contracted position not yet filled.

I would include an officer selected, trained and posted on the basis of being a politically correct who can not, due to a lack of personal attributes, perform the full range of police duties but that would open a huge can of worms regarding the political realities of Canada at the moment.

[twobits]

To twobits ...

I am not sure what you mean by "can not be replaced". What I meant was that the RCMP would not ship another person in the permanently fill the vacant position, but that they could fill it on a day by day basis using money saved by that and other vacancies.

I would be some irate to find that, as a Municipal taxpayer, I was paying for an officer who was not available for work due to misconduct. That includes;

1. An officer transferred out and not yet replaced.
2. An officer seconded to a location or project outside of the Municipality that had nothing to do with the Municipality.
3. An officer suspended from duty, with or without pay.
4, An officer on extended sick leave.
5. A newly contracted position not yet filled.

I would include an officer selected, trained and posted on the basis of being a politically correct who can not, due to a lack of personal attributes, perform the full range of police duties but that would open a huge can of worms regarding the political realities of Canada at the moment.

I dunno Donald. All I remember is the Inspector saying he was two members short because of suspended with pay. And as a taxpayer, that does make me irate and reinforces the need for some local accountability instead of a national policy that says they can do that and remain on the local taxpayer tab. No city employee would be receiving their pay while suspended for criminal misconduct on the job.
KL3something's input here might clarify this.

[Donald G]

To twobits ...

I do not care if they continue to be paid up until their hearing. But IMO IF the RCMP chooses to suspend them from duty their total expenses should come out of the Federal RCMP budget and not out of the Municipal Contract Monies. I would hope that that is actually the case.

I know there are trade-offs in every contract but that would seem a significant financial item.

The RCMP also needs to clarify and standardize what conduct or offences warrant a suspension from duty while awaiting trial or a hearing. Since the RCMP have only one officer cars and patrols "working under supervision" is not a viable option.

[Static]

Why should they even receive pay and benefits if they are suspended?

[Donald G]

To static ...

Probably because they have not been found guilty of any wrong doing according to any evidence. The RCMP are famous for being led by the nose when it comes to public opinion regarding their image.

IMO the pursuit of justice has never been a determining factor when dealing with their own officers. Unless the officers being dealt with have "protected family" (nepotism) connections or are visibly representative of minority groups.