A Creator is Evident

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
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cliffy1
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Re: A Creator is Evident

Post by cliffy1 »

Rosemary1 wrote:If one accepts that everything has a beginning from which it evolves/ mutates neither the theory of evolution or a Creator satisfactorily provides an answer since even a Creator/God by whatever name we use, had to have a beginning.

So at this point belief in either evolution or a Creator and whatever one is most comfortable with is probably equally valid.

Why does it have to be either or? Why not both? I think what is at fault with both is human concepts about what creation and evolution are. First is the concept of a god that is separate from creation. Why not a creator creating itself? ("In the beginning was the word...") Why would the creator be separate from its creation? That is a very human concept.

Everything in the Universe is made up of the same stuff (stardust). If creator created itself then maybe humans, (being made of the same stuff) created themselves. I'm sure that any entity capable of creating the Universe is capable of empowering the various entities within that creation with that power. Otherwise it would be such a daunting task to bother with all the fine details of its creation. And perhaps we are just replicating DNA as Monty Python said. And perhaps, contemplating our origins is so much mental masturbation that keeps us from knowing the important stuff.
Trying to get spiritual nourishment from a two thousand year old book is like trying to suck milk from the breast of a woman who has been dead that long.
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Poindexter
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Re: A Creator is Evident

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Not one of the self discribed, all seeing, all knowing devine gods created a myth that discribes anything smaller than what the naked eye can perceive. Shouldn't a being credited with creating the universe know what an atom is? There is no more proof needed that religion is a product of man and their limited knowledge at the time than this indisputable fact. I find it stunning that we continue to apply these ancient biblical writings to discribe scientific truths knowing full well these scripture based theories were simply the product of man developed at a primitive time in our history.
Remember: Humans are 99% chimp.
Healthyskeptic
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Re: A Creator is Evident

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The giraffe's laryngeal nerve. 2 inches long or 16 feet looping around the heart?

Well, an 'Intelligent Designer" did it this way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO1a1Ek-HD0
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The job of a skeptic generally comes down to critical examination of doubtful claims.
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zzontar
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Re: A Creator is Evident

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If, according to many atheists, everything started from single-celled creatures, and some evolved into trees while others miraculously became animals, shouldn't there be proof that every living organism has the same ancestor?
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Re: A Creator is Evident

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We have 23 chromosomes. All other primates have 24 pairs.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human) We have evidence of the exact location where a fusion took place in Chromosome 2. We don't know when it precisely took place but we have proof it occurred.

All members of Hominidae except humans, Neanderthals, and Denisovans have 24 pairs of chromosomes.[4] Humans have only 23 pairs of chromosomes. Human chromosome 2 is a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.[5][6]

The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.[7][8]
The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere.[9]
The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the middle.[10]

Let me make this perfectly simple for you. Telomeres are only at the ends of a chromosome - like the end part of your shoelace. Human Chromosome 2 has telomeres in the middle -Proof of a fusion sometime in our past. We were apes in the African wilds. We were hairier, shorter, had no language skills, etc.


When did humans and chimpanzees diverge and become 2 distinct species? The Estimate is around 13 million yrs ago.

http://www.livescience.com/46300-chimpa ... tions.html
Last edited by Healthyskeptic on Apr 10th, 2016, 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The job of a skeptic generally comes down to critical examination of doubtful claims.
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zzontar
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Re: A Creator is Evident

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That doesn't answer my question at all.
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Re: A Creator is Evident

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So you think a 4 thousand yr old book has science answers for you? Good luck on that.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The job of a skeptic generally comes down to critical examination of doubtful claims.
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zzontar
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Re: A Creator is Evident

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Healthyskeptic wrote:So you think a 4 thousand yr old book has science answers for you? Good luck on that.


I never said it did, but way to avoid the question... again
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Re: A Creator is Evident

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zzontar wrote:If, according to many atheists, everything started from single-celled creatures, and some evolved into trees while others miraculously became animals, shouldn't there be proof that every living organism has the same ancestor?


Religion says that every living thing on earth came from one creator....that every human on earth, from one man and one woman.
Shouldn't there be proof ?

The key word in your question - creatures.
Not every single celled organism is the same creature.

I don't think you truly understand what evolution means - there were no 'miraculous transformations' - that's what religion is for.
Science is about minute changes which occurred over billions of years....not about the sudden creation of life as we know it in less than 10,000.
Science also readily admits that we simply do not have all of the answers yet. The pieces are all coming together, but we haven't got all of the answers.

Science has witnessed the process...the birth and death of planets and stars....I've yet to hear about any witness to the sudden creation of either by a deity.
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Re: A Creator is Evident

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Unread postby zzontar » Yesterday, 8:27 pm

If, according to many atheists, everything started from single-celled creatures, and some evolved into trees while others miraculously became animals, shouldn't there be proof that every living organism has the same ancestor?


Everything that is continually being added to our knowledge about genetics and genetic history tends to proves, more and more conclusively, that every substance with a genetic origin on earth, is related. Your suggestion that a one celled plant or animal come into being intact identifies that your genetic historical knowledge is seriously lacking. Perhaps the fact that you apparently do not understand it is the reason that you find it so hard to accept ??

The evidence that the present people living on earth today, due to an assortment of factors, can be traced back to and "Adam" and "Eve" who lived about 200,000 years apart in the area of the Great Rift Valley in Africa. Genetically, although some of you may not like it, all of the people living on the earth today ARE related according to genetic research.
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Re: A Creator is Evident

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Donald G wrote:
The evidence that the present people living on earth today, due to an assortment of factors, can be traced back to and "Adam" and "Eve" who lived about 200,000 years apart in the area of the Great Rift Valley in Africa. Genetically, although some of you may not like it, all of the people living on the earth today ARE related according to genetic research.


In 200,000 years we've gone from primitive beings to ones who can create artificial intelligence, new species, and travel through space. The odds of there being intelligent life MILLIONS of years ahead of us is great, and even if there was no God, the odds of them being able to start life on Earth would be greater than lightning hitting a soupy planet thus creating all we have. If there is a God who's even billions of years ahead of that, I don't think we could fathom it anymore than a chimp could fathom how a computer works.
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Glacier
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Re: A Creator is Evident

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The 2nd law of thermodynamics can only be overcome through intelligent design. The same applies to all living an non-living things. Everything and everyone is in decay. You and I are passing on at least 100 mutations to your children, and they are to their children. Almost all mutations are neutral, but some are negative. The positive ones are so infrequent that they are practically non-existent. Eventually all life, including human life, will go extinct because of genetic entropy. Our genetics is getting weaker every generation. We are screwed. Not only will we all die because we mutate every day, but our species will die out eventually, probably in another 50 generations, we will be too genetically weak to reproduce.
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Re: A Creator is Evident

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We are certainly headed in that direction Glacier due to our ability and propensity to neutralize the forces driving survival of the fittest. On the other hand I think genetic engineering contains the promise of being able to eliminate such systematic weaknesses from our genetic blueprint as they are identified.

The usual world bottlenecks and die offs may well eliminate some of the problem of allowing the weak and unfit to survive until around the year 2075 when weather changes, population, dwindling food, water and resources come together to force the strong to fight for their own survival. The present VERY SMALL example of the "Syrian Refugees" is a small example of the world of 2075 when only the strongest of the strong will survive.
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Re: A Creator is Evident

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Donald G wrote:
Everything that is continually being added to our knowledge about genetics and genetic history tends to proves, more and more conclusively, that every substance with a genetic origin on earth, is related. Your suggestion that a one celled plant or animal come into being intact identifies that your genetic historical knowledge is seriously lacking. Perhaps the fact that you apparently do not understand it is the reason that you find it so hard to accept ??

The evidence that the present people living on earth today, due to an assortment of factors, can be traced back to and "Adam" and "Eve" who lived about 200,000 years apart in the area of the Great Rift Valley in Africa. Genetically, although some of you may not like it, all of the people living on the earth today ARE related according to genetic research.


There is actually only female DNA available that dates back to 200,000 years ago...the so called Eve DNA.
It is however, heavily disputed research since such an insignificant number of people around the world were actually tested for markers - less than 150 world wide.
Of that group, the most prominent genes came from African DNA....the rest split equally between the other major continents/races. It is widely accepted that modern day *bleep* sapiens all originated from Africa.

ZZontar...Humans did not just suddenly develop as we stand today...not 6,000 years ago, not 200,000 years ago.
There is overwhelming evidence of the evolution of ''humans'' dating back much further than that. Our most recent ancestors being *bleep* sapien idultu.
The time frame for the evolution of the genus *bleep* out of the chimpanzee–human last common ancestor is roughly 10 to 2 million years ago, that of *bleep* sapiens out of *bleep* erectus roughly 1.8 to 0.2 million years ago.
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Glacier
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Re: A Creator is Evident

Post by Glacier »

Farmmaa wrote:There is actually only female DNA available that dates back to 200,000 years ago...the so called Eve DNA.
It is however, heavily disputed research since such an insignificant number of people around the world were actually tested for markers - less than 150 world wide.

That's because mitochondria DNA goes back 200,000 years to Eve while male DNA only goes back as far as Noah, a much shorter distance into the past. *stirs pot*
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