Human / Religious origins

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
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averagejoe
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Re: Human / Religious origins

Post by averagejoe »

averagejoe wrote:
First Commandment...

1) You shall have no other gods before Me.


annexi wrote: Islam and Judaism also embrace this as fact, don't they?


Do they?
Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.

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annexi
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Re: Human / Religious origins

Post by annexi »

averagejoe wrote:
First Commandment...

1) You shall have no other gods before Me.


annexi wrote: Islam and Judaism also embrace this as fact, don't they?


averagejoe wrote: Do they?

I'm pretty sure, yes. They are the 'one God' religions. Then Hinduism is a many God religion (but still one brahma or 'head' God) whereas Buddhism is more like 'no God' per se, but connection to a greater something which could be perceived as God. Then if you go into Zoroastrianism, which is much older than Christianity, that seems to me to be a precursor to the modern day one-God religions.
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is winter over
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Re: Human / Religious origins

Post by is winter over »

averagejoe wrote:

Well I'm really glad you asked....Lets look a Lazarus.

The Death of Lazarus

John 11

1 Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) 3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”

4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.” 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, 7 and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”

11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”

13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Jesus Comforts the Sisters of Lazarus

17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

[b]Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead


38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.

“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”

40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”

43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.


Why are you using the bible to justify claims made in the bible? Why should I believe the claims made in the bible?
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averagejoe
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Re: Human / Religious origins

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annexi wrote:Then if you go into Zoroastrianism, which is much older than Christianity, that seems to me to be a precursor to the modern day one-God religions.


Well not really. God of Israel is older than 2,600 years...Zoroastrianism was started in Persia around 600 BC.

Abraham Grandfather of Jacob who was renamed by God to be call Israel.

Abraham lived in and around 2018 B.C. That would make it about 1400 years before Zoroastrianism.

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Last edited by averagejoe on May 27th, 2016, 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.

Thor Heyerdahl Says: “Our lack of knowledge about our own past is appalling.
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averagejoe
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Re: Human / Religious origins

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is winter over wrote: Why are you using the bible to justify claims made in the bible? Why should I believe the claims made in the bible?


Well I'm glad you asked....

According to Historian Baronius states....

In none of these earliest references to Christianity’s arrival in Britain is Joseph of Arimathea mentioned. The first connection of Joseph of Arimathea with Britain is found in the ninth century, Life of Mary Magdalene by Rabanus Maurus (766-856 C.E.), Archbishop of Mayence. Rabanus states that Joseph of Arimathea was sent to Britain and, he explains, traveled as far as France, he was accompanied by "the two Bethany sisters, Mary and Martha, Lazarus (who was raised from the dead), St. Eutropius, St. Salome, St. Cleon, St. Saturnius, St. Mary Magdalen, Marcella (the maid of the Bethany sisters), St. Maxium or Maximin, St. Martial, and St. Trophimus or Restitutus." An authentic copy of the Maurus text is housed in the Bodleian Library of Oxford University.[7] Rabanus Maurus describes their voyage to Britain:

How did Lazarus end up with his sisters and traveled with Joseph of Arimathea and this group to Glastonbury England?

More on Joseph of Arimathea....

See: Did Jesus visit Glastonbury England?

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=55732
Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.

Thor Heyerdahl Says: “Our lack of knowledge about our own past is appalling.
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cliffy1
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Re: Human / Religious origins

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averagejoe wrote:Do they?

You don't seem to understand that it was the Jews who wrote the old testament. It is their holy book and it contains the 10 commandments. You don't seem ti understand that Abraham was a Sumerian and that the whole book of genesis is taken from the epic of Gilgamesh, which is a Sumerian text not a Jewish one.
Also, Muslims also only worship god alone. They don't believe in the trinity and believe that worshiping Jesus is putting him before god. They believe Christians are out to lunch on this account. Anyway, if you had of read what I posted on the origins of the bible you would not be making these outrageous claims about its authenticity.
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Farmmaa
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Re: Human / Religious origins

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Again - you can not quote the bible to try to prove that the bible is true.

Harry Potter - also one of the best selling books in history ( and much better writing as well )...but the Harry Potter books can not be used as proof of the existence of magic.

The fact that some of the characters in the bible are, or can be imagined as, real people, still does not make the book anything but stories.

Dispelling every advance in science just because it doesn't mesh with the biblical tales is just ridiculous.
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cliffy1
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Re: Human / Religious origins

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In this early flowering of civilization, many religious myths abounded, seeking to explain what was then unexplainable. From this context comes the oldest complete literary work we have, the age of which we are certain, dating back at least 7,000 years. The Epic of Gilgamesh is a lengthy narrative of heroic mythology that incorporates many of the religious myths of Mesopotamia, and it is the earliest complete literary work that has survived.

Many of the stories in that epic were eventually incorporated into the book of Genesis. Borrowed from the Epic of Gilgamesh are stories of the creation of man in a wondrous garden, the introduction of evil into a naive world, and the story of a great flood brought on by the wickedness of man, that flooded the whole world.

In this Mesopotamian basin civilization, known to us today as the Chaldean Empire, tribal alliances that predated the amalgamation into a single empire, continued to exist and flourish. Many were allied to the palace, many opposed, all retained elements of their pre-conquest cultures.

The patriarchs first appear in our story with the journey of one of them, Abraham, who, the story tells us, led members of his tribe from the city of Ur, west towards the Mediterranean, to the "promised land" of Canaan, sometime between the 19th and 18th centuries B.C.E. Or so the story goes.

The problem is that we don't really have any good archeaological evidence to support the Abraham story, and there is much archaeological evidence to contradict it. The land where Abraham supposedly settled, the southern highlands of Palestine (from Jerusalem south the the Valley of Beersheba) is very sparse in archaeological evidence from this period. It is clear from the archaeological record that its population was extremely sparse - no more than a few hundred people in the entire region, and the sole occupants of the area during this time were nomadic pastoralists, much like the Bedouin of the region today. We know from clear archaeological evidence that the peoples known as the Phillistines never even entered the region until the 12th century B.C.E., and the "city of Gerar" in which Isaac, the son of Abraham, had his encounter with Abimelech, the "king of the Phillistines" (in Genesis 26:1) was in fact a tiny, insignificant rural village up until the 8th century B.C.E. It couldn't have been the capital of the regional king of a people who didn't yet exist!

http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
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annexi
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Re: Human / Religious origins

Post by annexi »

Fascinating, thank you cliffy1 for introducing the story of Gilgamesh.

In order of chronology, it seems to go:
Epic of Gilgamesh (my read on it is roughly 2000 BCE)
Abraham shortly after (is that Old Testament or Torah info?)
Zoroastrianism shortly after that (1200 - 600 BCE)
Jesus/Christianity/ New Testament
Mohammed /Islam/ Quran (600 CE)

So that makes 5 bodies of writing with a comparatively similar storyline- one God, humans fallen from grace, peoples trying to make rules to set things straight.
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Re: Human / Religious origins

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annexi wrote:Fascinating, thank you cliffy1 for introducing the story of Gilgamesh.

In order of chronology, it seems to go:
Epic of Gilgamesh (my read on it is roughly 2000 BCE)
Abraham shortly after (is that Old Testament or Torah info?)
Zoroastrianism shortly after that (1200 - 600 BCE)
Jesus/Christianity/ New Testament
Mohammed /Islam/ Quran (600 CE)

So that makes 5 bodies of writing with a comparatively similar storyline- one God, humans fallen from grace, peoples trying to make rules to set things straight.

Abraham is right out of the Epic of Gilgamesh. The Jews took it and wrote it into their mythology in the Torah and then the Christians took the Readers Digest version of the Torah and turned it into the old testament. Mohamed rewrote the old testament into the Koran, or more correctly, had his minions write it into the Koran since he was illiterate.
Trying to get spiritual nourishment from a two thousand year old book is like trying to suck milk from the breast of a woman who has been dead that long.
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Re: Human / Religious origins

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cliffy1 wrote:Abraham is right out of the Epic of Gilgamesh. The Jews took it and wrote it into their mythology in the Torah and then the Christians took the Readers Digest version of the Torah and turned it into the old testament. Mohamed rewrote the old testament into the Koran, or more correctly, had his minions write it into the Koran since he was illiterate.


Proof please.....just another fairy tail cliffy
Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.

Thor Heyerdahl Says: “Our lack of knowledge about our own past is appalling.
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Re: Human / Religious origins

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Farmmaa wrote:Again - you can not quote the bible to try to prove that the bible is true.

Harry Potter - also one of the best selling books in history ( and much better writing as well )...but the Harry Potter books can not be used as proof of the existence of magic.

The fact that some of the characters in the bible are, or can be imagined as, real people, still does not make the book anything but stories.

Dispelling every advance in science just because it doesn't mesh with the biblical tales is just ridiculous.


Uhhhh Baronius writtings were not in the Bible...just to let you know...
Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.

Thor Heyerdahl Says: “Our lack of knowledge about our own past is appalling.
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Re: Human / Religious origins

Post by looking4one »

Since you like reading bible quotes to support your beliefs.
Exodus 20
averagejoe wrote:First Commandment...

1) You shall have no other gods before Me.

Do you also believe in Exodus 21?
Exodus 21English Standard Version (ESV)

Laws About Slaves
21 “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave,[a] he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. Albert Einstein
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averagejoe
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Re: Human / Religious origins

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looking4one wrote:Since you like reading bible quotes to support your beliefs.
Exodus 20

Do you also believe in Exodus 21?
Exodus 21English Standard Version (ESV)

Laws About Slaves
21 “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave,[a] he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.


In the King James version, which is the one I read...it doesn't use the word slave..it uses the word master or servant.

2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:

6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.

Thor Heyerdahl Says: “Our lack of knowledge about our own past is appalling.
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averagejoe
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Re: Human / Religious origins

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looking4one wrote: Exodus 21English Standard Version (ESV)


Interesting you would look up these verses in this version of the Bible to fit your anti-Christian views?

Here is the history of the Bible you quote...

History

Work on this translation was prompted, in the early 1990s, by what Lane T. Dennis stated was a need for a new literal translation by scholars and pastors.[5] A translation committee was formed, and it sought and received permission from the National Council of Churches of Christ in the USA to use the 1971 edition of the RSV as the English textual basis for the ESV. About 6 percent was revised in the ESV.

This why I use the King James Bible, compiled in 1611.

History is being rewritten, including Bibles. In this case they rewrote 6% of the Bible...Hummmm

Nice try again!
Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.

Thor Heyerdahl Says: “Our lack of knowledge about our own past is appalling.

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