Do Christians

[Ka-El]

It is pretty basic logic that one does not have to prove a negative, I can't prove that Tinkerbell does not exist either but then again there is no reason to believe that she does because there lacks evidence. If you make a claim like "Jesus is god" and that a god exists, it is up to that person who claiming it to prove that claim, so far Christians fail in this regard.

You missed the point. Nobody needs to prove anything to anybody. Belief in God or belief in nothing or belief of anything in between is often a deeply personal choice. God's existence cannot be proven nor disproven by logic or science. People come to believe for many different reasons. I just wonder what it is that motivates people who are driven to "prove" them wrong.

[youjustcomplain]

We have yet to discover life on another planet. Do you conclude therefore, that it does not exist?

So you are open to other possibilities? Careful now, that would make you an agnostic.

I realize you were talking to Jlives. Still, I'm confused.

We have yet to discover life on other planets. I know of no atheists who would make the leap to conclude that life only exists on earth only because we haven't found it elsewhere yet.
I see the game you're playing. It's a metaphor for god.

Atheists can, and usually do, have an open mind. The difference between agnostics and atheists is that atheists have a lack of belief where agnostics actively believe.
In fact, I'd group agnostics and theists closer than agnostics and atheists for the simple reason that both theists and agnostics both use belief when it comes to a god.

[fluffy]

I don’t see it that way. Atheists do not believe in God, it’s in the job description. Agnostics are all about “I don’t know”.

Agnostics are for lack of a better word, skeptical if proof is not present. Sure, there are atheists who make the same claim but in reality as soon as any degree of “I’m not sure” comes into the picture then your atheist card gets revoked.

[Bsuds]

Agnostics are all about “I don’t know”.

For me it's more like ...Prove it to me. Until there is proof I pretty much don't believe.

[fluffy]

So if you were to apply a label to yourself for the purposes of this discussion, what would you go with?

[youjustcomplain]

I don’t see it that way. Atheists do not believe in God, it’s in the job description. Agnostics are all about “I don’t know”.

Right. Atheists do not believe (in god). So it's a lack of belief. Whereas, Theists actively believe or claim to know (of god). Agnostics though at muddy for me. I've heard them described as believing that nobody will ever know whether god is real. To me, it's illogical because how can we know what we'll never be able to know?

Agnostics are for lack of a better word, skeptical if proof is not present. Sure, there are atheists who make the same claim but in reality as soon as any degree of “I’m not sure” comes into the picture then your atheist card gets revoked.

I think most atheists and agnostics are exactly that; skeptical without proof / evidence. The big difference, if I had to guess, is that atheists don't rely on belief where agnostics choose to believe that we'll never know.

[fluffy]

I can’t disagree with anything there in a huge way, but I think I’d chose the word “unknowable” for your description of agnosticism rather than “never know”. Like the non-hardliner atheist, it leaves a little wiggle room in that we don’t know what surprises the future holds. :)

[Ka-El]

To me, it's illogical because how can we know what we'll never be able to know?

I don't know. I know I'll never be able to know. Logic tells me that.

[fluffy]

Exactly, at this point in time there are no right or wrong answers.

[youjustcomplain]

I don't know. I know I'll never be able to know. Logic tells me that.

I guess, to me, I won't commit to a statement of what we can't ever know. I'm not qualified to put a limitation on our species ability to learn and adapt. That's all I meant by my statement. Maybe, someday, a god will reveal him/herself to everyone in a way that leaves no room for dispute. Some would say that's already happened. I don't really think science will ever prove god's non existence though. I'll remain an open minded non believer. If evidence offers proof of a god, I'll reassess my position. :)

[Ka-El]

you sound agnostic to me

ag·nos·tic.

NOUN

1.a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

[Farmmaa]

I guess, to me, I won't commit to a statement of what we can't ever know. I'm not qualified to put a limitation on our species ability to learn and adapt. That's all I meant by my statement. Maybe, someday, a god will reveal him/herself to everyone in a way that leaves no room for dispute. Some would say that's already happened. I don't really think science will ever prove god's non existence though. I'll remain an open minded non believer. If evidence offers proof of a god, I'll reassess my position. :)

The goal of science is not to try to prove that god does not exist.
Plenty of scientists believe in god.
The goal of science is to study, learn, experiment and discover everything we can know about the earth, the universe and everything in it.
It has nothing to do with whether or not any gods exist.

[fluffy]

The goal of science is not to try to prove that god does not exist.
Plenty of scientists believe in god.
The goal of science is to study, learn, experiment and discover everything we can know about the earth, the universe and everything in it.
It has nothing to do with whether or not any gods exist.

I keep coming back to just what we mean when we talk about "God". I agree that the traditional "benevolent dictator" concept of an active consciousness pushing the buttons of the universe with some cosmic purpose in mind is one that doens't sit well with most people, myself included. But when you move into scientific realms and speak of unifying forces and underlying energy networks you are entirely capable of discovering something God-like. It's all in how you perceive the subject. It's quite possible to reduce love to chemical equations, but that cold, analytical approach hardly does it justice. The same can be said for something that holds the universe together in all its wonder and beauty.

Again, it's all in what comes into your mind when someone mentions "God". If you can get past the prejudices that go with an outdated God, then all the wisdom and moral guidance available through many religions becomes available without having to buy into concepts that stretch the bounds of what is believable.

[youjustcomplain]

you sound agnostic to me

ag·nos·tic.

NOUN

1.a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

If that was a reply to me, then I'll just disagree with you if we're to take the definition you quoted. I do not accept the we can never know of a god. How could I claim to know that our species isn't capable of knowing something? I do claim no faith, but I also claim an active lack of believe.

I also do believe there is no god. I just simply don't believe. Us atheists come in many forms.

[Ka-El]

How could I claim to know that our species isn't capable of knowing something?

Well, I would claim our species is not capable of understanding what God is. We cannot even agree on a definition (see posts by fluffy). In fact, it is those people who presume to understand God and “His message” for everyone else that I take issue with. I know for a fact that I will not, in this lifetime anyway, understand what God is, but I don’t just dismiss the infinite possibilities – some as proposed by fluffy. Hmmm. Maybe I’m the agnostic (except I do have absolute faith that there is something, some unifying, universal phenomena that is, and likely will always be, beyond our understanding).

I also do believe there is no god. I just simply don't believe.

Wondering if you might clarify what you mean by this?