ICBC

[Cactusflower]

https://www.castanet.net/news/BC/220334 ... odels-ICBC
Finally, a step in the right direction. The late Dave Barrett brought us affordable vehicle insurance, the BC Liberals made it unaffordable, and now David Eby is going to make it affordable again.

This is going to take less time than it took the BCLP to screw it up, but it will take some time, so please be patient.

[hobbyguy]

https://www.castanet.net/news/BC/220334/Eby-remodels-ICBC
Finally, a step in the right direction. The late Dave Barrett brought us affordable vehicle insurance, the BC Liberals made it unaffordable, and now David Eby is going to make it affordable again.

This is going to take less time than it took the BCLP to screw it up, but it will take some time, so please be patient.

Lol. Always trying to blame the Liberals when it is nothing to do with them.

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/most-drivers-believe-that-quality-of-driving-in-b-c-has-decreased-icbc-survey

"The number of motor vehicle collisions in B.C. increased 23 per cent between 2013 and 2016 (from 260,000 to 320,000)."

SNIP

"Most drivers who responded said they believed that driving in the province has worsened in the past five years, pointing to bad driving behaviours as one of the top issues. They felt that drivers are more distracted, aggressive and impatient."

It's bad drivers that are 80% of the problem.

I do give Eby credit for capping liability claims, which were being driven up by "ambulance chaser" lawyers - which is another significant factor.

[The Green Barbarian]

but it will take some time, so please be patient.

I'd rather the NDP just resigned. I have no patience for those clowns.

[bob vernon]

In power just a few months and they managed to lose $1.3 billion for the year.

[Cactusflower]

In power just a few months and they managed to lose $1.3 billion for the year.

Wow.......that's the ultimate in misconception.

[rustled]

Link to the survey:
http://engage.gov.bc.ca/ratefairness/

ETA: I have to say, this is a rather poorly done website.

The button for the questionnaire asks you to first read the info on the website. The info they want you to read is in a clunky old-fashioned drop-down list, text heavy, and clunky to navigate from one page to the next. I'd suggest if they don't take the time to present it in a more user friendly fashion, they ought not put much stock in the results.

[Ken7]

I was not aware of this coming from Saskatchewan.

In the province of BC your driving insurance is not affected by tickets, and motor vehicle accidents. I thought that was a given as someone who drives careless it would impact their insurance.

What makes me wonder was when got my BC Drivers there was a "Good Driver" discount, which I had a dispute about and was able to obtain as a MVA I had was holding me back. It ended up that I did receive it after challenging them that SGI has faulted me when I could not be held responsible.

What's your thoughts, I think it should be a higher premium for poor drivers and those who disregard the rules of the road!

[rustled]

The government is looking for our opinions on their proposed changes, including your suggestion. Being discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=76941&start=315 .

ETA: I have to say, this is a rather poorly done website. The button for the questionnaire asks you to first read the info on the website. The info they want you to read is in a clunky old-fashioned drop-down list, text heavy, and clunky to navigate from one page to the next. I'd suggest if they don't take the time to present it in a more user friendly fashion, they ought not put much stock in the results.

[Hassel99]

Link to the survey:
http://engage.gov.bc.ca/ratefairness/

ETA: I have to say, this is a rather poorly done website.

The button for the questionnaire asks you to first read the info on the website. The info they want you to read is in a clunky old-fashioned drop-down list, text heavy, and clunky to navigate from one page to the next. I'd suggest if they don't take the time to present it in a more user friendly fashion, they ought not put much stock in the results.

I took the survey, it seems all about "unlisted drivers" -what a major red hearing.

[my5cents]

If ICBC is going to try to link at fault claims to drivers, it will be virtually unworkable in many circumstances.

Cousin visits from California, uses the car to go to the store and piles it up. I pay a fine for letting an "unlisted" driver use my car. They are never going to get anything from cousin.

When do we list these drivers, every year ? I buy insurance, I'm the only one using the car. I get sick and under MD orders can't drive, so I enlist someone, do I have to go to an agent and re-write my insurance ????

On the noon news today one of the proposals is to change the time period for obtaining a "free bee" (at fault accident that you are forgiven for) It's going from 10 years to 18 years. If you have an at fault after that 18 years, it was taking 3 years to re-establish your ability to be forgiven, now it will be 10 years before you are eligible for a forgiven accident.

If we are going to have to list all the drivers who drive our vehicles (and pay a premium based on their risk value), I would HOPE that, if I'm the only person listed on my two vehicles I would get a HUGE discount because I can't drive two at once.

[Urban Cowboy]

At fault claims penalties, should go against the drivers license of the guilty party, and not the vehicle.

That's how Saskatchewan does it and it's worked for eons.

If you are a terrible driver, your drivers license renewal fee will reflect that.

It may even encourage some to consider public transit.

[Urban Cowboy]

I wish rates were based on a driving skill test. Class 1- ers would be paying 5 bucks a month.

Very funny.

You must be driving on different highways than I am.

If that "Highway Through Hell" TV show is any kind of indicator, I'd hate to think how much in claims, all the totaled big rigs, trailers, and cargo, add up to each year.

[my5cents]

At fault claims penalties, should go against the drivers license of the guilty party, and not the vehicle.

That's how Saskatchewan does it and it's worked for eons.

If you are a terrible driver, your drivers license renewal fee will reflect that.

It may even encourage some to consider public transit.

Reading between the lines of the survey, it seems that ICBC wants to use the driving history to determine the cost of vehicle insurance. I have no idea how they would do that for, lets say someone who owns three vehicles and has numerous declared drivers for various vehicles.

Sounds like a nightmare and open to lots of fraud.

[Hassel99]

If ICBC is going to try to link at fault claims to drivers, it will be virtually unworkable in many circumstances.

Cousin visits from California, uses the car to go to the store and piles it up. I pay a fine for letting an "unlisted" driver use my car. They are never going to get anything from cousin.

When do we list these drivers, every year ? I buy insurance, I'm the only one using the car. I get sick and under MD orders can't drive, so I enlist someone, do I have to go to an agent and re-write my insurance ????

On the noon news today one of the proposals is to change the time period for obtaining a "free bee" (at fault accident that you are forgiven for) It's going from 10 years to 18 years. If you have an at fault after that 18 years, it was taking 3 years to re-establish your ability to be forgiven, now it will be 10 years before you are eligible for a forgiven accident.

If we are going to have to list all the drivers who drive our vehicles (and pay a premium based on their risk value), I would HOPE that, if I'm the only person listed on my two vehicles I would get a HUGE discount because I can't drive two at once.

Effective May 6th 2018 the BC Liberals had set it up so that if you had a claim you fall down 9 discount levels, currently it is 3.
NDP Government canceled that change today.

that's right, BC Liberals had it in place to hit bad drivers harder. NDP said NOPE.

NDP JUST CANCELED That same improvement they are talking about adding.

Insanity how political this is.

[hobbyguy]

Interesting reminder that ICBC has always been political: http://www.bcpolicyperspectives.com/media/attachments/view/doc/article_bc_studies_icbc_2013/pdf

Some excerpts:

"In the campaign preceding the September 1972 general election the ndp made government auto insurance a major part of its platform and promised that rates would be no higher and perhaps lower than those charged by private companies."

SNIP

"As Premier Barrett commented ten months after icbc was introduced: “You can do all kinds of things and the people won’t get upset, but raise or tinker with their auto insurance and you’ll get more complaints than you can handle. I’ve received more letters complaining about icbc than all the others put together.”

SNIP

By the fall of 1975, the Barrett government realized that a serious financial situation was developing at icbc. In November, icbc warned the government that it expected a shortfall of $181 million and that it was rapidly diminishing its operating cash (in the early years annual policies were paid on 1 March each year). Despite attempts at cost
control and a federal wage restraint scheme, rising claims and health costs were pushing icbc further into the red. Premier Barrett called a surprise election for 11 December 1975."

SNIP

"The Barrett government had not taken any action on icbc’s request to raise rates by 19 percent, assuming the proposed fuel tax subsidy. A report prepared for the new government by Byron Straight, a respected Vancouver insurance accountant, said that a 19 percent rate increase would require an annual tax subsidy of $125 million. Without the subsidy, it would be
necessary to increase rates by approximately 140 percent to meet the forecast expenditures and to eliminate the prior accumulated losses by March 1976."

SNIP

"The government rejected the proposed subsidy and announced a massive increase in auto insurance rates on 2 January 1976 for the premiums that were due at the end of February. This sparked a public outcry against the increase. Public demonstrations were organized, over 250,000 individuals signed a protest petition, "

SNIP

The government bowed to the pressure by announcing a smaller rate increase designed to balance the 1976-77 expenditure and by providing a one-time grant of $181.5* million to pay off the debt of the prior years. This was a significant amount; it was approximately 70 percent of the total government deficit in 1975-76"

*approx $866 million in 2018 $.

SNIP

"The New Democratic Party, under Mike Harcourt, won a decisive majority of the seats (but not the popular vote) in the October 1991election, and a resurgent Liberal Party became the official opposition. Icbc management immediately presented Moe Sihota, the labour and consumer minister with responsibility for icbc, with a forecast of a $180million loss, primarily due to increasing claims and claim costs as well as lower income due to lower interest rates. Icbc management sought a 24 percent average rate increase for 1992, but the cabinet only granted 19 percent. The ndp accused the previous government of ignoring icbc’s forecast and setting artificially small rate increases for 1990 and 1991 in the hope of improving its election chances. Finance Minister Glen Clark denounced such political interference: "

SNIP

" In the early 1990s, icbc became more active in promoting and funding traffic safety initiatives in order to reduce claims and to support the government’s social agenda. A significant change occurred in 1996, when the government transferred all driver licensing services from the Motor Vehicle Branch to icbc. This transfer of over 460 employees and
$40 million would allow the greater integration of services,"

SNIP

Another increase in icbc’s expenditures occurred in 1994, when the government mandated that the corporation, rather than the Medical Services Plan (msp), would be the prime insurer for medical claims. This change resulted in savings to the msp of approximately $13 million in the 1994-95 fiscal year as this cost was transferred to drivers through their insurance premiums. Icbc president Thom Thompson confirmed these changes in mandate when the 1995 Annual Report stated that icbc was becoming a loss prevention company rather than just an insurance company.


Glen Clark became premier in February 1996, following the resignation of Mike Harcourt. The next month he announced a freeze on all taxes and fees, including automobile insurance rates, as a major plank (Freeze for Families) in the government’s re-election platform.

However, the rate freeze, retroactive to 1 January 1996, contributed to a loss of some $134.9* million at icbc in that year, reducing total reserves to approximately $210 million. Nevertheless, the government continued to consolidate driver and vehicle-related programs with icbc. In 1997, it transferred the commercial transport and compliance operations of the Motor Vehicle Branch to icbc, using a funding arrangement similar to that of driver licensing whereby icbc remitted the licence fees less their operating costs."

*approx $202 million in 2018 $

SNIP

"The Liberal government was much more ideologically driven than its Social Credit predecessor. As promised during the election, the government immediately cancelled the unpopular icbc-funded photo-radar program, and it imposed a severe financial restraint program in keeping with the government-wide spending-reduction program."

SNIP

"The government decided to keep icbc as a public corporation and thereby avoided a likely political storm. Icbc had earned the support of the insurance agents, the trial lawyers, health providers, and other influential groups, and the government did
not want to alienate them. It announced that icbc would continue to provide mandatory basic insurance as well as road safety and education programs. Nevertheless, the government announced some changes. It would encourage greater competition in optional insurance in order to increase choice and to reduce premiums, transfer decisions respecting basic insurance structure and rates to the British Columbia Utilities Commission (bcuc), and reclaim most of the commercial transport inspection and compliance program due to a potential conflict in roles for icbc. What was not announced was that, for the next three years, icbc would continue to pay approximately $27 million per year for the commercial vehicle program."

SNIP

"Finance Minister Gary Collins denounced the ndp’s rate freeze and the rebate to BC drivers: “The manipulation of their rate
got so obscene that just prior to the last election, the ndp government not only dealt with the rates, but they actually sent people cheques.”

SNIP

"By January 2008, icbc was a highly profitable organization with $9.6 billion invested. Net income for the previous year was approximately $500 million, and the total capital reserve had reached a new record of $2.4 billion. The corporate
mct had risen to 188 percent, but icbc management continued to target 150 percent for 2008. Comparing the capital reserves to premiums written (polices sold), there was enough basic capital to operate for seven months. The equivalent number for optional insurance was almost eleven months.
Towards the end of the decade various cabinet orders had greatly circumscribed the regulatory control of the utilities commission over the basic insurance business and over icbc in general."

SNIP

"The most fundamental change in the relationship between government, icbc, and its customers occurred with the
2010 provincial budget. On 4 March 2010, Finance Minister Colin Hansen confirmed that, as the sole shareholder, the province, over three years, would take $778 million of icbc’s “excess” capital from the optional capital
reserve as a dividend in order to reduce provincial borrowing costs. "


What we see is politicians never seem to be able to leave something that ain't broke alone. The only exception, oddly enough, being wild Willy Van Der Zalm. During the periods under Van Der Zalm, and under Campbell, when the running of ICBC was left to professionals, and particularly during the period when the BCUC was the real oversight body, ICBC did well, and rate problems were not much of an issue. But like an artist that never knows when a painting is finished, the politicians somehow knew better.

In reality, ICBC has been political from the get go, and the current BC NDP are continuing with that tradition.

The NDP, the Liberals, the Socreds have all decried political interference, but every single one of their governments mucked around with ICBC - except as noted Van Der Zalm.

It is notable that while the BC NDP went after the Liberals for taking dividends from ICBC, they had, in the 1990s, used ICBC as a cost dumping ground to improve their budget numbers - which is essentially the same game the Liberals played with dividends (a practice the BC NDP initiated with dividends from BC Hydro).

And so we wind up right back in the mess that Bill Bennett fixed with a $866 million (2018 $) cash infusion to ICBC in 1976.