Agnostics, atheists and other non-believers

[Hmmm]

PS; the Bible says he draws or attracts these honest and humble ones to him. Also it says he isn’t far off from us but we need to search for him and he will make himself be found.

I hope I’ve helped in some way to your questions.

I think that about the only thing we can agree on is that we don't need religion to lead a good life. Beyond that, you're telling me what you've been told. You can hear preachers in churches spouting the same things you are saying. Does that make it true?

I'm not trying to be just be argumentative. I'm really curious how you can think that you know the will and mind of god. And I'm not sure how you get to judge who doesn't. Just because I don't know the mind and will of god, you feel that I haven't searched or opened my mind/heart to him. whatever opening your heart is. God is said to be everywhere. And yet, I can't see him. I can't see that he's male. I can't see him telling me that I'll go to hell for not believing in him. I can't, and nor can any other atheist, agnostic and a lot of believers.

I appreciate your thoughts on this subject as you do seem sincere and not just trying to stir the pot and insult like 1nick. Also, I’m not judging you in the least and hopefully would never think to do so. Also, things being said in church’s are not usually true. Most are actually enemy’s of God. It’s the lies they tell and the great harm they cause that are the reason most people stop believing in God. As for God being everywhere the Bible does not teach that, churches teach that. Gods dwelling place is in the heavens. His power can reach everywhere but is not present everywhere. This teaching confuses people and yet another reason people stop believing in God. But that teaching is another of the churches very clear lies. It does not say he is everywhere in the Bible. You can illustrate his power and reach like electricity, the power plant is in one place but the power goes out all over.

And in closing remember it is not me or any other human that draws you to God, it is only God that does that. I can only recommend that if you really want to know if he exists and is real then pray to him and ask him to reveal himself to you. Do it out of true sincerity and an honest heart. These sincere prayers are answered. The bible does teach that.

[occasional thoughts]

I love Hmmm's iconic dog, but the rest of what he introduces makes me shudder. I've left that. I want to talk to other agnostics, find out how they arrived there.

I was "saved" in Woodland Gospel Hall, Vancouver, about 1962; I was 14. The two preachers were very good, sincere men. The social pressure to become converted was immense; father taking me to gospel meetings night after night; finally I buckled. Salvation is the one of the world's greatest bits of mumbo jumbo. Only believe. In hindsight, I realize there is no magic to salvation, it is an intellectual exercise. One is accepting a way of life, centuries of tradition (and conflict), a set of leaders who interpret god for us, and so on. Over time, my mind took over; this is not real. This is a house of cards. I'd have to say that the zealots fear the individual's mind the most.

[Hmmm]

I’m happy you like the dog. As for the rest please recall how I stated what the churches teach is for the most part lies and not found in the Bible. So your experience only provides another example of why most are actually enemies of God. Ignore what they teach and read the scriptures yourself if you like. These church leaders are disgusting imo. Sure some are sincere but others know they teach lies but do it out of tradition and for money.

[1nick]

I don’t see where I‘ve insulted anyone in this thread. You make claims of knowing what this god wants and what he’s about. I don’t believe you, it’s that simple. I don’t know if there’s a god or not, I don’t care. But this god of Abraham who created the universe also sent bears to kill some children who mocked a bald guy? This is nonsense and how could anyone possibly know this?
Maybe there was a Prime Mover, a force that got the ball rolling. I don’t know that, no one does or probably ever will. But this god from out of these books? No.

Maybe you could start another thread “How to proselytize to the unbeliever“ rather than try it here.
This topic seems more geared to the hows and whys you came to your world view, not I’m agnostic tell me how to believe in your god.

Have a lovely day Hmmm, don’t stay up so late.

[ferri]

We need to discuss the topic, not each other please. Thanks!

[Omnitheo]

I'm an Atheist. Or an Epistemologist. An Omnitheist for fun.

I have no beliefs other than what is evident. Everything outside of that is fantasy, or interesting hypothetical.
Where does Omnitheism come in? Well you could say I believe in all gods. Every god is real and valid and responsible for the things they are credited with. So far as a "god" is simply an anthropomorphization of a natural phenomenon for which some lacked proper understanding. In this regard, Jehova, Allah, Thor, Nirti, Apophis, Amun-Ra, Shiva, Janus, Athena, Arceus are all equal. They are all as valid as eachother, and each as fascinating and interesting as the Harry Potter series or Star Wars movies.

Outside of that understanding though, they should be taken no more seriously than say the Harry Potter series or Star Wars movies. Sure some of them may be credited with some good life lessons, but that shouldn't supersede anything else. If someone says "The Force will be with you" you shouldn't trust in The Force to protect and feed you and cure your illness or keep your child safe in place of actual medical science.

When did I become an Atheist? The moment I was born. Before I was ever told about any sort of religion. To me at the time, as with all children, my mother was the most important being in the universe. And as with all children, I grew and learned. I read books, both fiction and non. I was especially interested in the earth and the universe. In animals. I was lucky enough to grow up in an era where the scientific community had 100% certainty in the validity of evolution. Of the earth's place in the galaxy. In the age of the earth itself. And everything I read, every documentary I watched, every aspect of nature I observed fit together with this.

Until it didn't. Until people started preaching about "god". Until people started making up things about humanity being created seperately from animals. the earth being created in 6 days. Imaginary beings who demanded you worship them and speak to them but provided nothing in return. From the get go, even my child brain knew that this was impossible to reconcile with reality. That this was quite simply, something that was made up. The numerous contradictory statements by other believers only reinforced this, as "god" meant something different to everyone, most often as an excuse to either have arbitrary rules which served no purpose, or as an excuse for heinous acts.

I was in youth groups. In sunday school. I had many religious friends. Cubs, scouts, etc. I was continually subjected to attempts to indoctrinate, however the greatest vaccine against indoctrination is knowledge, and having spent my childhood reading books and watching documentaries, I was armed with knowledge that those religious around me did not have. This lead to many arguments. In particular I recall getting in a fight with a particularly religious kid because he was killing animals. I cried out for them to stop, as it was hurting them, and he said "It doesn't matter, animals don't have souls". Now this wasn't some sort of wake up call to be atheist. I already was athiest. This was another lesson in how religion can corrupt. And this was before I learned of the Crusades, or Palestine, or the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church.

That said, I still found religion fascinating. I read the bible, I watched numerous documentaries and series about ancient greek mythology. Because these were fascinating stories. As were other cartoons on TV. The difference was that nobody was killing animals (or people) in the name of Dragonball Z or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (Though I recall someone did get beat to death while playing Power Rangers).

Stories are fun. The numerous different explanations given in media for what killed the dinosaurs. All fun the think about, but we know the reality, and everything else is just a "what if?" parallel world curiosity. Mythology is the same. They're fun what-ifs. But they NEED to be seperated from reality. They need to be understood for what they are. Curiosities. It might be fun to imagine an all powerful being created the universe in a few days and personally loves you, but when someone understands what the reality is, it's far more amazing and beautiful than any story told by man.

[occasional thoughts]

I'd have to say that anything appearing in this thread that would attempt to convert a poster or readers back to a religion is off topic. The thread is for people who identify as agnostics, who left agnostic beliefs for atheism, or who are heading into agnostic territory. The life is lonely in our theistic-dominated society. I do think that Canadian society is one little touch softer on us than vast tracts of the U.S. and its denizens.

Maybe the thread should be about what non-religious non-spiritualist people believe about how we got here. One posters of late repeated the old story about evolution. Evolution is a post-origin explanation, and does not explain Origin. Darwin was incredible, way ahead of his time. Evolution itself is enough imho to blow most religion out of the water. But religion hangs on, doggedly, and is still in the majority. Person by person, individual by individual, it is losing. Its demise will be centuries after we're all gone, though.

AND I DON'T KNOW IF THE WORLD WILL BE A BETTER PLACE! To that extent, I attribute on ethesis in the Bible to be right on, the analysis of the problem on Earth. Man has sinned, however you wish to describe or relabel sin. Environmental sin, warfare sin, jealousy and greed sin, sexual sin, and so on. The Bible in my opinion does not provide a real prescription: it says, "Christ died for your sing". That's where most of us here part from belief. But here I go off the topic on my own thread.

[capleton]

There is only one truth. if you look everywhere but there, you won't find it. People like to argue and say thats not true and theres no such thing as absolute truth, but there is.. The biggest reason people don't find it is because the lack of sincerity and proper motive. People just do what they want no matter what even if they know its a lie. These ones will never know the real truth. God does reveal this truth to ones who are honest, humble and truly want to know and will actually do something about it. The world is filled with people who practice very clear lies. The pope (purposely not capped out of disrespect) is one such person. Millions of devout Catholics support the church which is very clearly corrupt and the lie that the popes are perfect (infallible) is clearly wrong to any thinking person. The very bad history of evil popes testifies to this.

This is one example of people that prefer lies. it is also a reason so many think there is no such thing as absolute truth because they see something so many people believe and say its true when it is clearly not. They give up and assume there is no truth. But there is and it too is very clearly seen, logical and provable.

If you or anyone else truly has the right heart and will accept the truth even if it goes against your own personal desires, then you will find it. God will make it known to you and you won't have any doubts. You will also be much happier, because we actually don't make the best decisions apart from his guidance. I am not a fanatic, but I do have a very clear and explainable belief system that is logic based and also Biblical.

But isn't that just the problem? God will reveal himself to you but only if you believe in him first, but for him to reveal himself you must also be "honest, humble and truly want to know". So what if I believe with all my heart, like so many have, and still don't have a god revealed to you? Does that mean that you weren't honest, humble or didn't truly want to know?
It's a way of telling people that they must believe harder, preach more, spread the faith more, donate more time/money to the church to earn this gift from god. Eventually when you want something so bad, you may start to make things up and then god has revealed himself in a delusion that you fail to perceive as yourself.
There are reasons why hard core believers abandon their faith. Not because they weren't sincere or humble.

Absolute truth doesn't exist. Believe it all you want. On one hand, believers say that god is everywhere. If so, how come atheists see no evidence of him? Can't tell me I'm not looking. It's everywhere right?


Capelton:
I will not read the bible. I don't need to in order to not believe in a god. My point isn't that the bible is full of scientific theories that are valid. Far from it. It's that they make claims that science can't dispute. Science can very easily state that there is no evidence for a world wide flood through the geological record; sure. But that's not proof of something not happening. That's showing that there is no good reason to believe it happened. This is why I don't believe it happened.

And I do understand the burden of proof. But what is the point of attacking people who believe something different from you? You use science to back your claims, but they don't. They don't owe you a burden. They are welcome to believe whatever they want, just as you are.

What? You were a "hard core Christian" without having read the bible? How does that work? Like, you wanted heaven and hell to be true and for god to love you, but never read the book so had no basis for this belief? What, in your definition, made you "hard core", yet so easily converted?

You said that not much in the Bible can disproved by science and I just gave you a bunch of examples of how it is.

[Babba_not_Gump]

A well written comment Omnitheo, of which I agree with whole heartedly.
Btw, I know we've disagreed on other topics so this was nice to see.

....In particular I recall getting in a fight with a particularly religious kid because he was killing animals. I cried out for them to stop, as it was hurting them, and he said "It doesn't matter, animals don't have souls".

I quoted this part because it made me laugh as I once had a "soul" experience.
Not too many years ago, I had pulled off the side of the road on my motorcycle to stretch my legs. Another rider comes up, on his European bike and we start to talk, of course comparing bikes. It didn't take him long to state very emphatically that mine didn't have a soul.
I pretty well burst out laughing and said I know, it makes me sad that it won't be coming to heaven with me.

Now .
Another acquaintance would often bring up religion, bragging that his religion was the only true religion. It's comments like this that really cause religions to lose credibility.

As for me being an atheist, I could be fine being an agnostic hoping that some all-powerful entity would make itself present one day. But I truly believe that if and when this happens, it will be in the form of a more intelligent being, from a galaxy far, far away.

[occasional thoughts]

Ah well maybe your motorcycle is not going to heaven with you, but at least it doesn't need to anguish about its origin.

You know, it might be nice if all the good of the Bible and reputed to J.C. were true, but it just occurred to me, in a new sense, that all the rest of the religions would be wrong and so probably consigned to you know where. I do believe for the most part that to the extent you can distill them, most religions attempt to capture what's good about mankind, but it alas doesn't make it any more real. Religion is mumbo jumbo, alleged magic, god everywhere but only and supposedly revealed to certain people. Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. It's a joke. But look at the wealth, power, legion of adherents, and so on. Islam? As far as I'm concerned, some Arabs bemoaned that they didn't have a Christ like the Jews (and Christians).

I still must acknowledge that I came from a "Christian family" and that I have friends and relatives who call themselves Christians. I tey to respect their practices, their sensitivities, I don't argue with or ridicule them. My dear mother as she approached her end returned to the comfort of her religious roots. But to me it's all an untruthful sham. Some of you on here have obviously studied non-belief far more carefully than I. Good for you. I'm enjoying the thread. Me, I've just lived my life which step by step has taken me away from my roots and to where I am today.