Why do you believe?

Is there a god? What is the meaning of life?
capleton
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by capleton »

youjustcomplain wrote:
capleton wrote:I've seen certain members deny evolution, defend slavery and genocide because the Bible says its okay. I really see no reason why I should respect those beliefs.


Curious though Capleton.
Is it that they feel genocide and slavery is ok because of the bible? or is it that they are awful people, (by todays standards), and want for genocide/slavery, so they look for a common tradition, like the bible, and use it to justify what they want?

Chicken and egg issue. Are they awful cause of the bible, or were they awful already?


I don't really know, but I wouldn't complain if it happened just once but the justification happens All the time in Christian circles. They make God seem like some divine North Korean dictator who can do no wrong.
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Re: Why do you believe?

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I came to my belief in God through AA. It's a program that uses spirituality as a tool to deal with the crap that pushes alcoholics toward drinking. Because drunks can be a boneheaded lot, the program was designed to leave the actual concept of God to the individual so that each can have a concept that he/she is comfortable with. While the "God" word does show up in AA literature a lot, it doens't carry any religious affiliation, more often than not you will hear "a higher power" used in its place. A "higher power" can be anything from conscience to intuition, to fate or whatever. More important than the word or its meaning, is the idea that we are not in control of a lot of aspects of our lives.

Like many others I have never been comfortable with the traditional God concepts, but I have no problem that accepting that our knowledge of what makes the universe tick is in its infancy, and to deny something because science can't put it on the work bench and take it apart is more than a little close-minded.
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Re: Why do you believe?

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fluffy wrote:Like many others I have never been comfortable with the traditional God concepts, but I have no problem that accepting that our knowledge of what makes the universe tick is in its infancy, and to deny something because science can't put it on the work bench and take it apart is more than a little close-minded.


Absolutely agree. When I read atheists preaching about how there is no god and then trying to cite science as the reason for their belief, I have to shake my head. They will attack a believer because their belief isn't grounded in science, but they will take a leap of faith on their own.

I think it's a disconnect in the understanding that science and the scientific method can be used to explain what we know and how we know it, but it's completely silent on the unknown. How could science prove that which we have no way to disprove? Science makes no attempt do disprove things. Gather evidence, and form hypothesis. Outside of that, I don't know why some people have such strong belief in the no god hypothesis.

I don't believe there is a god. But, I use no faith to make that assertion. I think it's quite different than saying I believe there is no god. One could argue that my stance borders on agnosticism.
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Re: Why do you believe?

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If you want to believe, then believe. If you don't want to believe, then don't.

BUT.....don't either one of you claim to be more right than the other, and stop preaching to those that haven't decided on their own.

I strongly recommend that every young person do their own research about both sides. There is no hurry to make up your mind.
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Re: Why do you believe?

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Just a reminder, the topic is: Why do you believe?
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capleton
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by capleton »

youjustcomplain wrote:
fluffy wrote:Like many others I have never been comfortable with the traditional God concepts, but I have no problem that accepting that our knowledge of what makes the universe tick is in its infancy, and to deny something because science can't put it on the work bench and take it apart is more than a little close-minded.


Absolutely agree. When I read atheists preaching about how there is no god and then trying to cite science as the reason for their belief, I have to shake my head. They will attack a believer because their belief isn't grounded in science, but they will take a leap of faith on their own.

I think it's a disconnect in the understanding that science and the scientific method can be used to explain what we know and how we know it, but it's completely silent on the unknown. How could science prove that which we have no way to disprove? Science makes no attempt do disprove things. Gather evidence, and form hypothesis. Outside of that, I don't know why some people have such strong belief in the no god hypothesis.

I don't believe there is a god. But, I use no faith to make that assertion. I think it's quite different than saying I believe there is no god. One could argue that my stance borders on agnosticism.


What preaching? I have never heard a atheist preach before. I have never gone outside of a church and yell there is no god but i Have seen plenty of wacko Christian creationists go to the university and preach their nonsense, I have never gone to a Christians house and asked them "do you know the word of Darwin"? Atheism is just a response to the bold empty claims that relgionists make. There is no evidence of a god and never has been, are you agnostic towards leprechauns and fairies as well? What faith do atheists have?
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by youjustcomplain »

capleton wrote:What preaching? I have never heard a atheist preach before. I have never gone outside of a church and yell there is no god but i Have seen plenty of wacko Christian creationists go to the university and preach their nonsense, I have never gone to a Christians house and asked them "do you know the word of Darwin"? Atheism is just a response to the bold empty claims that relgionists make. There is no evidence of a god and never has been, are you agnostic towards leprechauns and fairies as well? What faith do atheists have?


I'm not suggesting atheists go to a church or door to door. Those are examples of what believers do.
There are plenty of atheists who assert that there is no god. That would be a belief. They believe there is no god, but it doesn't end there. They then go on to forums, and youtube and insult/attack people of faith for their beliefs, all the while they're making claims that science can't support. Such as, "There is no god".
Like them, I don't believe there is a god, but that's where it should end. Having no evidence for a god, doesn't mean there is no god; only that we don't see supporting evidence.

Atheism is not a response to anything. It's just a lack of belief in god. It's not an argument, a point, a debate. It's the lack of something.

I have a passion for this topic as it seems so relevant to most people. Belief in a god seems to guide so many people and enrich their lives, and yet, I see no reason for it. So I'm glad to have seen so many responses. :)
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Re: Why do you believe?

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youjustcomplain wrote:
capleton wrote:What preaching? I have never heard a atheist preach before. I have never gone outside of a church and yell there is no god but i Have seen plenty of wacko Christian creationists go to the university and preach their nonsense, I have never gone to a Christians house and asked them "do you know the word of Darwin"? Atheism is just a response to the bold empty claims that relgionists make. There is no evidence of a god and never has been, are you agnostic towards leprechauns and fairies as well? What faith do atheists have?


I'm not suggesting atheists go to a church or door to door. Those are examples of what believers do.
There are plenty of atheists who assert that there is no god. That would be a belief. They believe there is no god, but it doesn't end there. They then go on to forums, and youtube and insult/attack people of faith for their beliefs, all the while they're making claims that science can't support. Such as, "There is no god".
Like them, I don't believe there is a god, but that's where it should end. Having no evidence for a god, doesn't mean there is no god; only that we don't see supporting evidence.

Atheism is not a response to anything. It's just a lack of belief in god. It's not an argument, a point, a debate. It's the lack of something.

I have a passion for this topic as it seems so relevant to most people. Belief in a god seems to guide so many people and enrich their lives, and yet, I see no reason for it. So I'm glad to have seen so many responses. :)


I've never asserted there is no god, just that there is a complete lack of evidence for any of the 40000 plus gods that humans have made up over thousands of years, so I don't think any of religions claims are reliable but I suspect the atheists that assert there is no god also assert there is no Tinkerbell or Tooth Fairy because they have the exact same evidence as god, which is none whatsoever, maybe they have a point. Atheists go on forums and YouTube to insult religion because religion has a serious impact on society like trying to pass their laws and teach creationism and indoctrinate people and Christians constantly proselytize with their bold empty claims.
You really think Christians and Muslims do not not insult believers on forums and YouTube with them constantly threatening unbelievers with hell?. Anyways atheists insulting unbelievers is tame compared to when Christians used to burn to the stake unbelievers, heretics and pagans to the stake but then again maybe destructive belief systems deserve to be insulted as Christoper Hitchens said. Yes atheism is a response to theism, Theists say there is a god and the atheist response is I don't believe in god because there is no evidence for him whatsoever. I'm not buying your poor persecuted believers shtick, believers are the worst persecutors of unbelievers in history. I suppose religion can enrich religions if you want to suspend all critical thinking and reason.
Last edited by capleton on Sep 17th, 2020, 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do you believe?

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You don't seem to have interest in an honest response. Pretending I made a weak statement then defeating it is a really poor tactic.
Also, whether Hitchens said that atheism is the counter to theism doesn't make it true. It just means he said it. He was not my god, nor was he an authority. He was just a truly excellent speaker with a lot of great points with a sharp wit. I miss the guy.
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Re: Why do you believe?

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capleton wrote:You really think Christians and Muslims do not not insult unbelievers on forums and YouTube with them constantly threatening unbelievers with hell?. Anyways atheists insulting unbelievers is tame compared to when Christians used to burn to the stake unbelievers, heretics and pagans to the stake but then again maybe destructive belief systems deserve to be insulted


Great point Capleton. Theists insult everyone that doesn't subscribe to their personal flavour of mythology by threatening that they will suffer an eternity in hell.

Atheists "insult" theists by telling them they won't suffer an eternity in hell.
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by fluffy »

Omnitheo wrote:Theists insult everyone that doesn't subscribe to their personal flavour of mythology...


I think it's more than a little presumptuous to paint "believers" with such wide brush strokes.
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by capleton »

youjustcomplain wrote:You don't seem to have interest in an honest response. Pretending I made a weak statement then defeating it is a really poor tactic.
Also, whether Hitchens said that atheism is the counter to theism doesn't make it true. It just means he said it. He was not my god, nor was he an authority. He was just a truly excellent speaker with a lot of great points with a sharp wit. I miss the guy.


How the hell was that not a "honest response"? and I never called Hitchens a god.
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by youjustcomplain »

capleton wrote:
I've never asserted there is no god, just that there is a complete lack of evidence for any of the 40000 plus gods that humans have made up over thousands of years, so I don't think any of religions claims are reliable but I suspect the atheists that assert there is no god also assert there is no Tinkerbell or Tooth Fairy because they have the exact same evidence as god, which is none whatsoever, maybe they have a point. Atheists go on forums and YouTube to insult religion because religion has a serious impact on society like trying to pass their laws and teach creationism and indoctrinate people and Christians constantly proselytize with their bold empty claims.
You really think Christians and Muslims do not not insult unbelievers on forums and YouTube with them constantly threatening unbelievers with hell?. Anyways atheists insulting unbelievers is tame compared to when Christians used to burn to the stake unbelievers, heretics and pagans to the stake but then again maybe destructive belief systems deserve to be insulted as Christoper Hitchens said. Yes atheism is a response to theism, Theists say there is a god and the atheist response is I don't believe in god because there is no evidence for him whatsoever. I'm not buying your poor persecuted believers shtick, believers are the worst persecutors of unbelievers in history. I suppose religion can enrich religions if you want to suspend all critical thinking and reason.


Atheism is a lack of belief in a god. It says nothing about belief in Tinkerbell or the Tooth Fairy. Do you see no difference between those 3?
Million/Billions of people believe in some sort of higher power/diety. Many believe their loved ones are cared for by this god and that this god talks to them and guides them. For these people, there is more than enough evidence to believe in this god, otherwise they wouldn't bother. Sure, it's the type of evidence that you and I dismiss for ourselves, but to just state objectively that there is no evidence is poor form.
Difference between Tinkerbell is that nobody worships her. Nobody thinks she's real outside of the cartoons. We know that she was made up for the story.
Do you know that god was made up for the story? If so, provide evidence that supports your hypothesis. Simply, you have none. Nor do I. It's impossible to know he doesn't exist.

Atheists don't go on forums and youtube to insult religious people because of the impact religion has on society. At least, not all of them. There are plenty of arrogant/ignorant atheists who claim there is no god and insult the religious for making the counter claim, yet neither side can provide scientific evidence for their case, so it's really foolish for the atheist to call out the theist for failing to do what both sides are guilty of. Atheists who argue and insult others on the internet while proudly wearing the atheistic badge of "reason" make me wanna disassociate myself from the label.

I didn't think or say that I thought Muslims and Christians don't threaten people with hell. Why would I? Why do you think I think that?

Yes, religious have used their faith as a weapon against people of other faiths. They still do today. This has nothing to do with whether or not there is a god and more about why people are really awful to others.

And we're back to the condescending comments again. Have you ever met an intelligent believer? I have. Most of the ones I've met are very intelligent. In talking with them, I can see their critical thinking abilities are working just fine. To believe in god doesn't mean these people can't think critically. Part of the reason for this thread is to better understand WHY people think differently than you and I.

We look around and don't see evidence for god. But many people do. I accept this and offer no insulting remarks or intent towards them. Why do you?
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Re: Why do you believe?

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youjustcomplain wrote:
capleton wrote:
I've never asserted there is no god, just that there is a complete lack of evidence for any of the 40000 plus gods that humans have made up over thousands of years, so I don't think any of religions claims are reliable but I suspect the atheists that assert there is no god also assert there is no Tinkerbell or Tooth Fairy because they have the exact same evidence as god, which is none whatsoever, maybe they have a point. Atheists go on forums and YouTube to insult religion because religion has a serious impact on society like trying to pass their laws and teach creationism and indoctrinate people and Christians constantly proselytize with their bold empty claims.
You really think Christians and Muslims do not not insult unbelievers on forums and YouTube with them constantly threatening unbelievers with hell?. Anyways atheists insulting unbelievers is tame compared to when Christians used to burn to the stake unbelievers, heretics and pagans to the stake but then again maybe destructive belief systems deserve to be insulted as Christoper Hitchens said. Yes atheism is a response to theism, Theists say there is a god and the atheist response is I don't believe in god because there is no evidence for him whatsoever. I'm not buying your poor persecuted believers shtick, believers are the worst persecutors of unbelievers in history. I suppose religion can enrich religions if you want to suspend all critical thinking and reason.


Atheism is a lack of belief in a god. It says nothing about belief in Tinkerbell or the Tooth Fairy. Do you see no difference between those 3?
Million/Billions of people believe in some sort of higher power/diety. Many believe their loved ones are cared for by this god and that this god talks to them and guides them. For these people, there is more than enough evidence to believe in this god, otherwise they wouldn't bother. Sure, it's the type of evidence that you and I dismiss for ourselves, but to just state objectively that there is no evidence is poor form.
Difference between Tinkerbell is that nobody worships her. Nobody thinks she's real outside of the cartoons. We know that she was made up for the story.
Do you know that god was made up for the story? If so, provide evidence that supports your hypothesis. Simply, you have none. Nor do I. It's impossible to know he doesn't exist.

Atheists don't go on forums and youtube to insult religious people because of the impact religion has on society. At least, not all of them. There are plenty of arrogant/ignorant atheists who claim there is no god and insult the religious for making the counter claim, yet neither side can provide scientific evidence for their case, so it's really foolish for the atheist to call out the theist for failing to do what both sides are guilty of. Atheists who argue and insult others on the internet while proudly wearing the atheistic badge of "reason" make me wanna disassociate myself from the label.

I didn't think or say that I thought Muslims and Christians don't threaten people with hell. Why would I? Why do you think I think that?

Yes, religious have used their faith as a weapon against people of other faiths. They still do today. This has nothing to do with whether or not there is a god and more about why people are really awful to others.

And we're back to the condescending comments again. Have you ever met an intelligent believer? I have. Most of the ones I've met are very intelligent. In talking with them, I can see their critical thinking abilities are working just fine. To believe in god doesn't mean these people can't think critically. Part of the reason for this thread is to better understand WHY people think differently than you and I.

We look around and don't see evidence for god. But many people do. I accept this and offer no insulting remarks or intent towards them. Why do you?


Tinkerbell is exactly like god, the fact that both were created by the imaginations of man is pretty clear. So no I can not tell the difference the 3. People imagine all sorts of nonsensical things and declare them to be true, look at Psychiatric Wards, there are plenty of Jesus's and Messiahs there.
I could probably create a religion about Tinkerbell and at least gain a few converts if I was charismatic enough. Heck I bet if I buried a Harry Potter book somewhere and say in 400 years someone dug it up, they could probably make a religion about it because people are so naive, they'll believe in old thing that is written down. I don't have to provide evidence because I'm not making any claim, but religonists assert that a magic sky wizard exists so the the burden of proof is on them which they never provide. The Philosophical Burden of proof is pretty basic 101 logic.
I know from basic observation and history that people make up *bleep* stories all the time and I don't need to prove them wrong, they have to prove that they are right.You seem to blame atheists for everything, you just don't like I have strong opinions and am willing to challenge to believers who have been bullying and killing heathens for nearly 2000 years, so why wouldn't atheists not insult the religious? I don't even talk to the religious much, only when they approach me and try to sell to me their snake oil do I challenge them. They can never prove their claims and I think its absolutely hilarious, so yup the Burden of Proof is completely on the Theist.
I've met several intelligent Jewish and Pagans who didn't try to convert me or try to insist their religion is reality but every time I time talk to a Christian or Muslim and say I don't believe, they go absolutely berserk, so yes I will keep insulting the religious and I will definitely keep blaspheming.
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Re: Why do you believe?

Post by capleton »

Omnitheo wrote:
capleton wrote:You really think Christians and Muslims do not not insult unbelievers on forums and YouTube with them constantly threatening unbelievers with hell?. Anyways atheists insulting unbelievers is tame compared to when Christians used to burn to the stake unbelievers, heretics and pagans to the stake but then again maybe destructive belief systems deserve to be insulted


Great point Capleton. Theists insult everyone that doesn't subscribe to their personal flavour of mythology by threatening that they will suffer an eternity in hell.

Atheists "insult" theists by telling them they won't suffer an eternity in hell.


As Voltaire said “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”. If the Church had as much power as it had in the Middle Ages, it would definitely be still killing unbelievers. Heck in Uganda and other Christian countries, they still kill witches and gays, all endorsed by the Church of coarse. The Evangelicals in other parts of the world were very happy when Uganda passed its anti gay laws. .

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