BC Ecosocialists

[rustled]

Then what direction does the road to improvement take then? Capitalism has given us a steady decrease in buying power and quality of life for most Canadians going back to the post-war industrial boom of the 50s and 60s.

Do you believe the loss of buying power and reduced quality of life is entirely the fault of capitalism, or is it at all possible the increasing amount we are spending on social programming may have something to do with it?

[The Green Barbarian]

Then what direction does the road to improvement take then? Capitalism has given us a steady decrease in buying power and quality of life for most Canadians going back to the post-war industrial boom of the 50s and 60s.

It's not listening to rhetoric like this and attempting to bring in failed models to fix something that isn't broken. Less government, not more government, is always the way to go. More government just means more things get screwed up.

[The Green Barbarian]

Do you believe the loss of buying power and reduced quality of life is entirely the fault of capitalism, or is it at all possible the increasing amount we are spending on social programming may have something to do with it?

Bingo.

Unionization of government services certainly hasn't helped either.

Unions shouldn't be applied to education of our children, that's for sure. All that model does is just let unions use children as pawns, which is just evil and wrong.

[Jlabute]

Denmark is a market economy welfare state with one of the worlds highest tax rates and most opaque governments. Their sales tax is 25%, and their personal income tax rate is between 45% and 56%. Previous years had the income tax rate up around 65%. Of course this allows the Gov. to offer education to a university level, child care, health care, and 52 weeks paid parental leave, etc. Homes still cost as much there as they do here and vehicles cost more. So if you make $50,000 a year, $25,000+ goes to income tax. So it is a different way of living but not without its problems. It is far from being a utopia and people are not flocking or lined up to move there. The Danes have been happy to live with less but the facade is falling apart as we realize they have the highest per capita use of anti-depressants and just about everyone who lives there performs in a death metal band ;-) Holding the social programs in high regards does not mean everyone is happy per se.

Energy is expensive and CO2 emissions are rising. Denmark is considering to impose Universal CO2 fees as if it isn't already expensive to live there.

All we know is the Danes have grudgingly learned to appreciate the small things in life since that is all they can afford, this makes them happy. Maybe only retiring in Denmark is a better idea?

Do you get your moneys worth after paying taxes? How often do you go to University or need health care or child care. All momentary things that you pay for through your entire life. There must be a great sense of national pride knowing you've paid to have all your fellow Danes go to school. Despite being very progressive, they are strongly against immigration.

There are lots of issues with Denmark you wouldn't see from the surface. Personally, the eco-socialist movement is laughable to me, and Denmark is a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there... it has it's own living conditions that come with it's territory. Few people in Denmark vote for the socialist parties and the same will be here.

[Sparki55]

Then what direction does the road to improvement take then? Capitalism has given us a steady decrease in buying power and quality of life for most Canadians going back to the post-war industrial boom of the 50s and 60s.

I disagree with your opinion that Canadians have less buying power and worse quality of life than we did 30, 40, 50 or 60 years ago.

- Over 70% of the population (over 16) owns a cell phone.
- Over 95% of the population has access to a laundry machine.
- Most homes come with air conditioning now.
- Over 70% of the population (that can drive) owns a car.
- Dinner is as easy at 10 clicks on a device and it's delivered to your door.
- Finding anything you want is as easy as a $79.99 prime account and amazon will ship to your door for free in 2 days.

Due to the innovations that come from a capitalistic society, we have been able to benefit greatly from the advancement.

Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Uber, Tesla and skip all would not be possible in a socialist society that doesn't reward innovation and competition. Remove the competition and there is no advancement. Make everyone equal and there is no reason to excel.

Working - not getting a hand out, makes people the happiest. Simply collecting a government subsidy, living in a subsidized home, using subsidized services is like being on a vacation. It's a great temporary escape but at some point we need to get back to the grind to innovate and progress.

[JagXKR]

Then what direction does the road to improvement take then? Capitalism has given us a steady decrease in buying power and quality of life for most Canadians going back to the post-war industrial boom of the 50s and 60s.

We need less social programs. There is NO incentive to get off assistance. The left wing social experiment is an utter failure. It has stifled growth and innovation. $Billions wasted on a misguided and unattainable ideology.
More left would be disastrous.

This wackadoodle party is full of the most extreme of the left and it's existence hurts the Greens and the NDP. They are now going to vote, technically, against those 2 parties.
Their platform will suck away the weirdest of the left wing.

[fluffy]

There is an argument to be made that without capitalism run amok we wouldn't need many of the social programs we have now. The economic divide between rich and poor has grown nearly unmanageable and we will ultimately see the sort of civil unrest that is plaguing so many other countries if we don’t act.

I don’t think an extreme move to the left is what’s needed, but I do believe we have swung to far to the right and a correction is needed. We have basically given the keys to the car to the corporate sector and they are looking after themselves very well, to the expense of their employees, the environment, and government.

Following WW2 anyone who wanted a job had one, and you could build a life for your family on a single income. “Career” jobs were more plentiful as employers saw employees as part of their asset mix instead of tools. We have suffered a loss of community and common purpose.

Capitalism is not a bad thing in moderation, and the same can be said for some aspects of socialsim. A mix of the best from both philosophies is what we have now, but it’s just out of balance and needs some tweaking. Things like equal rights and opportunities are getting lost in the mix.

From my point of view a couple of things we could look at are making university education more accessible, as in cheaper, and putting the brakes on two tier health care immediately. Having more money is fimne when it comes to things like a new car or a bigger home, but it shouldn’t be able to get you to the head of the line in paces that should be equally available to everyone.

I linked to an extremely interesting essay by an anthropology professor from UBC a while back. He presented the pandemic and the economic havoc it is causing as an opportunity to Fix some of the stuff that needs fixing. He charted the rise of the US to economic superpower and had a close look at the bad that has come with the good in that journey, and how their society is now on the brink of collapse from not paying attention to things that needed attention. I’m running out of time right now but I’ll look for it again later and post a link. It’s good reading.

[hobbyguy]

I think a fix for society’s problems lies to the left of where we are now, but not that far left. That’s pretty radical for my taste and isn’t going to get much but fringe support.

A look at history and successful societies tell a much different story. Every socialist country has failed.

The consumer—that’s you—has the ultimate power. In effect, you vote with every dollar you spend.

In a socialist economy, the government has the ultimate power. It decides what you get from a limited supply it decides should exist.

Instead of millions of people making millions of decisions about what they want, a few people—government elites—decide what people should have and how much they should pay for it. Not surprisingly, they always get it wrong.

While I agree that the Ecosocialists are waaay out there at the left fringe, the current shareholder capitalism is equally getting waaay out there on the right. Pretty close to the point where Mussolini meets Stalin.

One can equally say in terms of shareholder capitalism (which is just Mussolini's corporatism under a different name) that a small class of elites determine those millions of choices.

It is really not a left-right line, but more like a circle. Right now, many would argue that we have socialism for the rich.

It boils down to a system where all pay and contribute their fair share in accordance with their ability to do so. That contribution is not solely measured by $$$. (e.g. a person picking up garbage from illegal dumping in the bush is contributing, but a $ value is not assignable)

The closest balance is the stakeholder capitalism idea - which is very close to what prevailed in the 1950s and 1960s when we saw middle class real wealth rising and hefty taxes (70% income tax +/-) on the very wealthy (who were still getting somewhat wealthier).

The mistake the Ecosocialists and the far left make is not recognizing that balance. That is: what actually works. The far right make the same error - perhaps not even recognizing that "shareholder capitalism" is precisely the Fascist corporatism that is an equally negative failure of Soviet Communism.

[fluffy]

Here’s the essay I mentioned above. Interesting read.

“The Unraveling of America”
https://daviswade.com/blog/the-unraveling-of-america

[36Drew]

Capitalism has given us a steady decrease in buying power and quality of life for most Canadians going back to the post-war industrial boom of the 50s and 60s.

Sparki55 has already pointed out some examples where your argument falls apart - but let's look at a sector that's been left entirely to the devices of free-market capitalism and see how that's impacted quality and affordability: Eye Care.

Your eyes are vital organs. Our health care system does not cover much in the way of eye care - private insurance is generally required for that. Even though your extended benefits only cover an eye exam and glasses once every two years - the exam is really quite affordable and basic glasses are affordable these days. LASIK surgery used to be horrifically expensive. It used to take two weeks for your eyes to heal. Now it can be done for less than $1000/eye and they can heal in 48 hours. LASIK was developed and patented in Canada, by a publicly-traded Canadian corporation. They did go bust, and it's traded hands - but capitalism has allowed the technology to be further developed and has made treatment really really cheap and accessible to the masses.

Of note - I've discovered that you can visit your optometrist to have common eye issues diagnosed and treated rather than waiting to visit your doctor (ie., infection, scratched eye, etc). They can bill MSP, and can prescribe the same antibiotic drops that your GP would... without the wait. There doesn't seem to be a shortage of optometrists, but our socialist medical system seems to have generated a shortage of GPs.

Free-market capitalism is great.

[fluffy]

Sparki55 has already pointed out some examples where your argument falls apart - but let's look at a sector that's been left entirely to the devices of free-market capitalism and see how that's impacted quality and affordability: Eye Care.

I don’t doubt there are plenty of examples of things improving, I’m thinking a little more generally. Like have wages kept up with the cost of living? What sort of impact does the growing gap between rich and poor have? Are we more or less secure in our jobs? How does the total number of home owners vs renters compare over the years?

Let me be clear, I’m not suggesting we scrap capitalism, I just think some adjustments are needed to keep us on the road to progressive change rather than trying to maintain same-old in a rapidly changing world.

I think extremist groups like these Ecosocialists who try for too much too soon will just end making a mess, but an ideal society of equal rights and opportunities for all is an goal worth working towards, however small the steps may be, and that concepts like a ruling “aristocracy” should fade into the past along the way.

[The Green Barbarian]

I wonder if BrassMonkey started a new party ?

This might be their theme song...

[hobbyguy]

Capitalism has given us a steady decrease in buying power and quality of life for most Canadians going back to the post-war industrial boom of the 50s and 60s.

Sparki55 has already pointed out some examples where your argument falls apart - but let's look at a sector that's been left entirely to the devices of free-market capitalism and see how that's impacted quality and affordability: Eye Care.

Your eyes are vital organs. Our health care system does not cover much in the way of eye care - private insurance is generally required for that. Even though your extended benefits only cover an eye exam and glasses once every two years - the exam is really quite affordable and basic glasses are affordable these days. LASIK surgery used to be horrifically expensive. It used to take two weeks for your eyes to heal. Now it can be done for less than $1000/eye and they can heal in 48 hours. LASIK was developed and patented in Canada, by a publicly-traded Canadian corporation. They did go bust, and it's traded hands - but capitalism has allowed the technology to be further developed and has made treatment really really cheap and accessible to the masses.

Of note - I've discovered that you can visit your optometrist to have common eye issues diagnosed and treated rather than waiting to visit your doctor (ie., infection, scratched eye, etc). They can bill MSP, and can prescribe the same antibiotic drops that your GP would... without the wait. There doesn't seem to be a shortage of optometrists, but our socialist medical system seems to have generated a shortage of GPs.

Free-market capitalism is great.

There are different flavors of capitalism.

The capitalism that works for all is fundamentally similar to the visions of FDR and with some the efforts of Teddy Roosevelt to break up the monopolies of robber barons. Winston Churchill recognized that a fundamental job of government was redistribution of income/wealth.

The current "shareholder capitalism" simply does not work for all, because it is not intended to. Prior to to 1980 we experienced what was closer to the "stakeholder capitalism" system. Which in fact is closer to what Germany does - and Germany does very well economically.

As I said before, the Ecosocialists will never see that kind of balance. They are so far left they dropped down around the circle to the sort of position that Lenin or Stalin would have taken - and we know we don't want that.

[hobbyguy]

Then what direction does the road to improvement take then? Capitalism has given us a steady decrease in buying power and quality of life for most Canadians going back to the post-war industrial boom of the 50s and 60s.

I disagree with your opinion that Canadians have less buying power and worse quality of life than we did 30, 40, 50 or 60 years ago.

- Over 70% of the population (over 16) owns a cell phone.
- Over 95% of the population has access to a laundry machine.
- Most homes come with air conditioning now.
- Over 70% of the population (that can drive) owns a car.
- Dinner is as easy at 10 clicks on a device and it's delivered to your door.
- Finding anything you want is as easy as a $79.99 prime account and amazon will ship to your door for free in 2 days.

Due to the innovations that come from a capitalistic society, we have been able to benefit greatly from the advancement.

Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Uber, Tesla and skip all would not be possible in a socialist society that doesn't reward innovation and competition. Remove the competition and there is no advancement. Make everyone equal and there is no reason to excel.

Working - not getting a hand out, makes people the happiest. Simply collecting a government subsidy, living in a subsidized home, using subsidized services is like being on a vacation. It's a great temporary escape but at some point we need to get back to the grind to innovate and progress.

That's probably because of a lack of experience in what the quality of life was like prior to the advent of "shareholder" capitalism.

Here are just a few points:

- it was possible for a single 20 year old to purchase a single family home in North Vancouver while making below median income (the house I bought was 5 times my annual income - the same house today would run you 30 times the family median annual income - yes, the exact same little old 1913 house on a busy street).
- homelessness was a non issue (you could rent basic accommodation for $50/month - 25% of minimum wage earnings)
- Inflation was running much higher than it is today but the "math" worked for average citizens (until the Mulroney years). Typically, mortgage payments were about 35% of income - but wage raises were running slightly above inflation. So you would see 6-7% increase on 100% of your income which translates into your mortgage payments getting 15-20% "easier" every year (without promotions or changing jobs). A key thing: the cost of housing as a multiple of median annual income stayed stable, as did the cost of a car and many other things.

Yes, life was simpler. No cellphones, tablets, PCs, social media, etc. etc. You could catch salmon and sea run cutthroat trout in Burrard inlet. You could get on the Northland Prince for about $150 (including a car) in Vancouver and cruise up to Haida Gwaii - a 4 day trip, including private room and 4 meals per day. You had 4 TV stations - if you were lucky. It had different challenges and was shorter (life expectancy is quite a bit higher today) but richer. Richer because everything depended on personal contact and your options were wide - we did not have the corporate giant monopolies. Where one or two companies dominate today - you had 10-12.

But we also had residential schools, "looney bins" where people with mental health issues were horribly mistreated, etc.

Can't go back, but the model of stakeholder capitalism could get us to a place that had some of the benefits, and still retain the positive advances we have made today. It is a matter of balance. Mulroney and Reagan tilted the balance to the very wealthy - and successive right wing governments have tilted the balance further and further away from the average citizen - toward serfdom.

It is interesting that the "Ecosocialists" are gaining ground in some circles. The second place finisher in the Green party leadership race is an avowed "Ecosocialist".

The "Green movement" co-opted some segment issues to bring people into their fold - are they now being co-opted by the old Communist thinking diehards?

[hobbyguy]

Denmark is a market economy welfare state with one of the worlds highest tax rates and most opaque governments. Their sales tax is 25%, and their personal income tax rate is between 45% and 56%. Previous years had the income tax rate up around 65%. Of course this allows the Gov. to offer education to a university level, child care, health care, and 52 weeks paid parental leave, etc. Homes still cost as much there as they do here and vehicles cost more. So if you make $50,000 a year, $25,000+ goes to income tax. So it is a different way of living but not without its problems. It is far from being a utopia and people are not flocking or lined up to move there. The Danes have been happy to live with less but the facade is falling apart as we realize they have the highest per capita use of anti-depressants and just about everyone who lives there performs in a death metal band ;-) Holding the social programs in high regards does not mean everyone is happy per se.

Energy is expensive and CO2 emissions are rising. Denmark is considering to impose Universal CO2 fees as if it isn't already expensive to live there.

All we know is the Danes have grudgingly learned to appreciate the small things in life since that is all they can afford, this makes them happy. Maybe only retiring in Denmark is a better idea?

Do you get your moneys worth after paying taxes? How often do you go to University or need health care or child care. All momentary things that you pay for through your entire life. There must be a great sense of national pride knowing you've paid to have all your fellow Danes go to school. Despite being very progressive, they are strongly against immigration.

There are lots of issues with Denmark you wouldn't see from the surface. Personally, the eco-socialist movement is laughable to me, and Denmark is a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there... it has it's own living conditions that come with it's territory. Few people in Denmark vote for the socialist parties and the same will be here.

As a counterpoint: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-01-20/why-danes-happily-pay-high-rates-of-taxes

"Neverthless, a Gallup survey from 2014 showed that almost nine out of 10 Danish people happily pay their taxes to some or a high degree."

"The reason behind the high level of support for the welfare state in Denmark is the awareness of the fact that the welfare model turns our collective wealth into well-being. We are not paying taxes. We are investing in our society. We are purchasing quality of life."

That last statement "purchasing a quality of life" explains it all. You get what you pay for. Denmark's model might be a bit extreme in your view - but we have done those tax rates in Canada in 1971 the combined federal and provincial income tax rate on earnings over $225,000 was 75%, rising to 80% on over $400,000.

The anti-tax warriors have indeed pushed at taxes, but a with a shell game. Corporate taxes have been halved. High end wealthy person taxes have been halved (and those are the people who benefit the most from the halving of corporate taxes - which is actually more because of all the loopholes and subsidies), and for the average Canadian taxes have not moved because of the shifting to "user pay fees", GST, PST, excise taxes, etc. etc. https://www.policynote.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Fig-4_FI-report.png

That shift in taxation from corporations and the wealthy to the average person is creating ongoing problems for society that are felt most by the regular citizen. That's why the fringe of "ecosocialists" has any traction at all.