Criminal Records checks/identity theft/credit card fraud

[BC Landlord]

Let's say someone with access to your personal information, makes an on line application for credit. So to not alert you, they use a different "new" home address and "new" phone number. The credit granter, is legit, but all they have is contact by the person via the internet, no copies of documents, just fill in the blank on electronic forms.
....

You are hypothesizing. I'm pretty sure that what you described could happen and perhaps, already has, but to discard for that "reason" a very effective and widely used tool, pretty much every serious transaction depends upon, is not rational.

[my5cents]

You are hypothesizing. I'm pretty sure that what you described could happen and perhaps, already has, but to discard for that "reason" a very effective and widely used tool, pretty much every serious transaction depends upon, is not rational.

Yes, you wouldn't want to inconvenience someone making a buck by protecting innocent people.

OK sarcasm switch off...

If you are allowed to present in inquiry there perhaps should be a short list of guarantees.

Was this person physically present ?
What documentation was presented by the subject ?
What indications were there that this was the person named on the documentation ?

[BC Landlord]

If you are allowed to present in inquiry there perhaps should be a short list of guarantees.

And I understand people's, including your concerns. There is always a risk of someone taking advantage of pretty much anything, however that risk is miniscule compared to its benefits. For example, every time you sit in a vehicle, there is a risk of getting killed, but we don't stop all traffic. It's a calculated risk.

[my5cents]

If you are allowed to present in inquiry there perhaps should be a short list of guarantees.

And I understand people's, including your concerns. There is always a risk of someone taking advantage of pretty much anything, however that risk is miniscule compared to its benefits. For example, every time you sit in a vehicle, there is a risk of getting killed, but we don't stop all traffic. It's a calculated risk.

Well in the case I was illustrating, it involved Capital One, I can only imagine how many thousands of applications they accepted on line.

You've got the keeper of the information, in this case the credit bureaus, not insuring the queries AND the resulting information they are placing on the subject's file were appropriately screened.

Interesting situation. Basically the attituded is "We have accepted information from one of our paying customers which in turn generated your private information being queried in our systems and subsequently released to that customer. We then modified your personal information in our system on the strength of this accepted information. You are saying it wasn't you. Prove it."

[TylerM4]

My5 is right. Happened to me and let me tell you - it was FAR more difficult to get the fraudulent information removed from my credit info than it was for the fraudster to have it changed. In my case it was Royal Bank - had a fraud alert on my account even. The loans agent admitted to seeing it and seeing that the address, telephone number, etc on the application were different but because the alert was going to expire in a year decided it was old and to issue the credit and change all of the information. Greed motivates them.

I truly believe that we need credit agencies/services, but they do need to be overhauled. The current system is super easy to fool and it's the citizen who pays the price when they are. One of the few areas I think the government should step in and manage this data with only a motivation of protecting citizens vs the current system which prioritizes profit over everything else.

[BC Landlord]

Interesting situation. Basically the attituded is "We have accepted information from one of our paying customers which in turn generated your private information being queried in our systems and subsequently released to that customer. We then modified your personal information in our system on the strength of this accepted information. You are saying it wasn't you. Prove it."

What this is telling me is that someone authorized has made an inquiry into your credit file, and such inquiry has been saved to the file (i.e. the "modification").
This is all legitimate. It should also be prudent for every person to check his credit file on regular basis and verify what's in there is true, especially the inquiries history. It's not that hard.

However, they don't send out messages like this. You made it up, especially the last part.

[my5cents]

My5 is right. Happened to me and let me tell you - it was FAR more difficult to get the fraudulent information removed from my credit info than it was for the fraudster to have it changed. In my case it was Royal Bank - had a fraud alert on my account even. The loans agent admitted to seeing it and seeing that the address, telephone number, etc on the application were different but because the alert was going to expire in a year decided it was old and to issue the credit and change all of the information. Greed motivates them.

I truly believe that we need credit agencies/services, but they do need to be overhauled. The current system is super easy to fool and it's the citizen who pays the price when they are. One of the few areas I think the government should step in and manage this data with only a motivation of protecting citizens vs the current system which prioritizes profit over everything else.

You're absolutely correct Tyler.

I really got a "kick" (after coming down from the ceiling) out of the demands, in my case from the credit card company.

"you'll have to report this to the RCMP and if they verify that this was a fraud, we'll stop all our actions" (I had uncovered the personation, and called the credit card company [two years after this had happened]. They, don't forget had the wrong address and wrong phone number.

Let's examine who played what role here.

Who was defrauded ? The credit company.
Who had the evidence of when and how the credit was given ? The credit card company.
Who knew what monies were obtained, including locations of use of the card etc. The credit card company.

What was my involvement ? My name was used.

So, how am I going to report this to the police ?

For starters which jurisdiction did the fraud take place ? Where I live ? Where the credit card company is located ?

Me : "Hi I'd like to report a fraud and an impersonation"
Police : "Oh when did this happen ?"
Me : "I don't know about two years ago."
Police : "What happened ?"
Me : "Someone obtained a credit card in my name."
Police : "How was the card applied for ?"
Me : "I don't know."
Police : "Who accepted the application ?"
Me : "I don't know."
Police : "Who approved the credit ?"
Me : "I don't know."
Police : "How much was obtained ?"
Me : "I don't know."
Police : "Was the card used to buy merchandise ?"
Me : "I don't know."
Police : "Why don't you know anything about this ?"
Me : "I asked the credit card company for details, expecting that you'd need that information, but they told me that since I'm saying it wasn't me who applied for the card and got the credit, I wasn't allowed to know any of the information."
Police : "Well, why are you calling us, since the credit card company is the victim ?"
Me : "Because they told me if I didn't report this to the police, they would continue to chase me for the money owed."
Police : "Has the credit card company reported this to the police ?"
Me : "No, they said that was up to me."

[TylerM4]

What this is telling me is that someone authorized has made an inquiry into your credit file, and such inquiry has been saved to the file (i.e. the "modification").
This is all legitimate. It should also be prudent for every person to check his credit file on regular basis and verify what's in there is true, especially the inquiries history. It's not that hard.

However, they don't send out messages like this. You made it up, especially the last part.

How did you interpret that as a quote vs paraphrasing? To me it's very clear he was paraphrasing.

I'm sorry you're having a hard time believing it. What he has shared with you is the truth, and matches my own experience. You've never been a victim of identify theft/credit fraud have you? Speak to those who have and they'll all share similar stories.

Here's a good way to understand it: Transunion and Equifax will not update your credit information with info you provide them. If you call them up, prove your identity, and ask them to update the address they have for you the answer is "No". If you ask them "How the hell am I supposed to get this updated then" they'll tell you to apply for new credit using the new address. You can't even call up an existing creditor and ask them to update your address - that updated info isn't sent to credit bureaus. You are not a paying customer, the lenders are. To the point where they'll even tell you "We're not responsible for ensuring the data is accurate. We just house the data. Creditors are responsible"

Don't believe me? Try it! You'll soon understand how broken the system is and why credit fraud is such a common thing. I mean - it's simple enough that junkies are doing it.

[ItsBigDaddy]

With consent, I can run a CRC on anyone. Nothing new here.

ETA: and a credit check.

Big man on campus!

[my5cents]

What this is telling me is that someone authorized has made an inquiry into your credit file, and such inquiry has been saved to the file (i.e. the "modification").
This is all legitimate. It should also be prudent for every person to check his credit file on regular basis and verify what's in there is true, especially the inquiries history. It's not that hard.

However, they don't send out messages like this. You made it up, especially the last part.

They don't send out what ?

I conducted a check of my credit. I received the report. Like you said : "It should also be prudent for every person to check his credit file on regular basis and verify what's in there is true". There were 5 credit applications to 5 credit card companies. Two issued credit cards.

Both cards were run up to max, no payments. My address and phone number had been changed a couple of times, including out of province.

I sent in the "Dispute" as required by Equifax and TransUnion. I received back "we have contacted the creditors and they maintain the credit was obtained by you, if you have any further concerns contact them directly".

In other words they were saying in reality : You are saying this credit wasn't obtained by you then prove it.

I'm sure you realize that proving a negative is much harder than proving a positive. That's why in law, we are innocent until proven guilty. In credit "law", it's apparently, "we do shoddy, incomplete checks as to who we give credit to and then when wrong it's up to the victim of the impersonation to prove they weren't who we dealt with".

The fact that my credit record, up to the point of the personation, was 100% good. All credit dealings with one bank, never any late payments, gold plated credit. No (genuine) credit applications for decades. So all of a sudden, I apply for 5 cards and run them up ? I contact them, then don't find me. All fell on deaf ears.

As for "someone authorized has made an inquiry into your credit file"... Anyone checking my credit needs MY authorization. They DID NOT get my authorization. The credit card companies DIDN'T put in place checks and balances that in any way insured they were dealing with me. They were negligent in not creating a system to insured they were dealing with me.

The credit bureaus didn't have any checks and balances to insure that their customers, the credit card companies, had obtained authorization in a reliable way.

Since the enquiries and information about the credit applications, credit granting, the unpaid bills the new address, new phone numbers didn't apply to me, in reality. ALL that information should have been removed from my account. Some is still there over ten years later.

[BC Landlord]

I'm sorry you're having a hard time believing it. What he has shared with you is the truth, and matches my own experience. You've never been a victim of identify theft/fraud have you? Speak to those who have and they'll all share similar stories like I shared mine.

I am sorry to hear about the OP's or anyone else's bad experience with identity theft, but in this case, and according to what was presented here (sketchy, at best), I am still having a hard time believing in the whole story. Apparently, someone stole/misused his/her credit card, and he/she found out about it two years later. I mean, on every credit card, you get monthly statements, have online access nowadays to your account, ... how could any fraudulent activity possibly go unnoticed, and for no less than two years? If reported to them (Visa, Master ...) in timely fashion, they have their own fraud departments, and would investigate any reported issue on their customer's behalf, and reimburse them if a fraudulent transaction was found.

[TylerM4]

I am sorry to hear about the OP's or anyone else's bad experience with identity theft, but in this case, and according to what was presented here (sketchy, at best), I am still having a hard time believing in the whole story. Apparently, someone stole/misused his/her credit card, and he/she found out about it two years later. I mean, on every credit card, you get monthly statements, have online access nowadays to your account, ... how could any fraudulent activity possibly go unnoticed, and for no less than two years? If reported to them (Visa, Master ...) in timely fashion, they have their own fraud departments, and would investigate any reported issue on their customer's behalf, and reimburse them if a fraudulent transaction was found.

Here's how it worked out for me: My information was leaked. A bunch of my co-workers and I all got defrauded at the same time. I strongly suspect the information was stolen/leaked from my employer at the time but have no proof.

Fraudster has my info. Walks into a bank and says "I'm Tyler and I would like to apply for a credit card". Here's all my info - yes that's not right address but I know the old address so you know it's really me. Yes, the phone number changed but I know the old number so you know it's me. Bank says "OK, I'll run the credit check". Credit check comes back as good and yup that's Tyler he correctly provided the old address and telephone number.

Bank then issues the credit and notifies Transunion/Equifax. They see the new credit registered and go: Oh! Look, he provided a new address he must have moved. We'll update his records to include the new address. Credit card is sent to "new" address, card statements are sent to new address, etc. The real Tyler has no idea because all correspondence about his new credit card (including the card itself) were sent to a brand new address and telephone number.

I was lucky and caught wind of it before the credit card arrived in the mail. The only reason I caught wind of it was because fraudster also applied for another form of credit with a lender I already had. When fraudster realized I already had an account with that institution he switched from "applying for new credit" to "reporting card as stolen but Tyler's address has changed so send it to this new address". Thankfully I tried to use my now cancelled "lost or stolen" card the next day, which led me to calling my bank to ask why my card wasn't working, to them telling me "You called last night and reported your card lost or stolen". To which I said "No, I sure as hell didn't!" That prompted me into running a credit report ASAP, and it was only through that credit report I was able to find that Royal Bank had recently issued a VISA in my name.

Don't even get me started on the process of getting that credit report and dealing with the fraud dept at Equifax and Transunion. Talk about broken systems. You report that you're a victim of fraud, that people are getting credit cards in your name. Guess how they verify that it's really you that is calling? They ask "Where did you most recently apply for credit?". Years ago and still makes my blood boil.

[my5cents]

I am sorry to hear about the OP's or anyone else's bad experience with identity theft, but in this case, and according to what was presented here (sketchy, at best), I am still having a hard time believing in the whole story. Apparently, someone stole/misused his/her credit card, and he/she found out about it two years later. I mean, on every credit card, you get monthly statements, have online access nowadays to your account, ... how could any fraudulent activity possibly go unnoticed, and for no less than two years? If reported to them (Visa, Master ...) in timely fashion, they have their own fraud departments, and would investigate any reported issue on their customer's behalf, and reimburse them if a fraudulent transaction was found.

"sketchy at best" eh ?

Misuse or fraud, or whatever just doesn't happen to someone who loses a credit card. That would be an easy one to detect.

What I was the victim of is called in the criminal code is "Personation". (no, not "impersonation", personation) It's under Section 403(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada.

What the credit card companies suffered is called Fraud, it's contrary to Section 380(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada.

Personation can happen without any credit card "being lost". It's the theft or, if you like, the illegal use of one's identity, not necessarily their credit card.

After retirement, with time on my hands, I decided to begin a habit of regularly checking my credit history. I think now you can check anytime you want at no charge. Back then it was once a year per company, ie Equifax once, TransUnion once. To this day, I now check Equifax in December and TransUnion in June.

If you go to Equifax's web site you'll have to "fight" through a ton of ads trying to sell their services, for example you can't get your number "credit score" from Equifax without buying a subscription, but if you search you can find an application form that you have to fax or mail to Equifax and they will mail you the information back. Takes a couple of weeks or so.

I guess they make it inconvenient, in this online society so some will just pay.

TransUnion will supply a report on line.

So in July 2010 having recently retired, I decided to order my credit report. I hadn't done so for five years. I discovered several inquiries from credit card companies (5). None of which I had any dealings with. I discovered that credit was granted by two of them. Both of those had been run up to their limit without a payment ever being made.

I noted that my phone number and address that I had been at for 5 years was changed a few times, some in BC and most recently Alberta. I've never lived in Alberta.

So this isn't a case of me losing a card and a bunch of charges ending up on it. The unpaid credit card companies had never contacted me because the address they had for "me" was not my address.

So before you call someone's account of an event "sketchy" you should consider that maybe you don't know all the types of circumstances that can occur.

I dealt with the credit card "fraud departments" and they did nothing. It's a long story that was made worse by the credit reporting companies and their procedures and policies. Sadly most think they are there to protect the public, which is NOT the case.

Still seem sketchy ?

[BC Landlord]

The typical pass the buck of responsibility. It's the Canadian way.

Hmmm, both Equifax and Transunion are American agencies. When you phone them, you actually talk to someone from Atlanta GA, and Chicago IL, respectively. Canada uses their services, mostly Equfax in the West, and Transunion out East.

Another thing, ... How did we deviate from criminal history checks (the original post) to all of a sudden discussing credit reporting agencies? I see no connection here.

[my5cents]

The typical pass the buck of responsibility. It's the Canadian way.

Hmmm, both Equifax and Transunion are American agencies. When you phone them, you actually talk to someone from Atlanta GA, and Chicago IL, respectively. Canada uses their services, mostly Equfax in the West, and Transunion out East.

Another thing, ... How did we deviate from criminal history checks (the original post) to all of a sudden discussing credit reporting agencies? I see no connection here.

They’re both American owned but I know Equifax has a large facility in Montreal.

Most creditors use both companies.

In the US there's a third called Experian.