Graves at Residential schools

[Salistala]

It seems to me that even if the exhumation and examination proves a child suffered from malnutrition or physical trauma, it's unlikely this evidence alone would prove where the child was living when the malnutrition or physical trauma occurred - unless the physical trauma was the immediate cause of death. So people will likely make assumptions about the findings, e.g. that First Nations children were only likely to have suffered from malnutrition or physical trauma while at residential school - and that any physical trauma resulting in death must have been committed by residential school staff.

It seems to me you're walking on thin ice with this statement. It seems to me you're implying this malnutrition and physical abuse happened at home and not in the schools. Intentionally clouding the water to misdirect the investigation away from documented reports of neglect to instead raise a red herring of 'possible' neglect at home. If you're going to make claims like this i would counsel you to provide substantiated evidence or maybe keep this opinion to yourself.

For instance, to support my position that the directors of these institutions didn't really care about the children I would provide these statements that highlight government indifference to the suffering of the children in order to achieve the goals of the 'schools':

“It is readily acknowledged that Indian children lose their natural resistance to illness by habituating so closely in the residential schools, and that they die at a much higher rate than in their villages. But this alone does not justify a change in the policy of this Department, which is geared towards a final solution of our Indian Problem.”
Duncan Campbell Scott

and a letter to the Medical Director of Indian Affairs noted in 1953 that:
“…children are not being fed properly to the extent that they are garbaging around in the barns for food that should only be fed to the barn occupants.”

You repeat over and over that highlighting the negative affects of the 'schools' misses the point that there were positive affects too. This ignores the fact that eliminating the negative affects (malnutrition, abuse, cultural devastation, future dysfunction, etc.) by providing better care for the children in a setting that nurtured instead of abused them would also result in positive outcomes.

'It was a sign of the times!" is also missing the point that there were voices calling for better care at the time. Voices like Dr Peter Bryce Medical Inspector to the Department of the Interior and of Indian Affairs, that at the time consistently called on DCS to provide better care for the ill and malnourished children. For his troubles Bryce was fired and blacklisted, so while you say not everyone treated first Nations poorly; those that did were promoted and those that didn't were silenced.

There are people here saying the higher illness and deaths were also a sign of the times, every child faced the risk of illness. However not every child faced the same level of risk as shown in this graph:

This shows that while the death rate of the general Canadian population aged 5-14 declined steadily from the 20's to the 50's, the death rates of children in the Residential School system were consistently 3-5x the national average until the 50's.

[rustled]

It seems to me that even if the exhumation and examination proves a child suffered from malnutrition or physical trauma, it's unlikely this evidence alone would prove where the child was living when the malnutrition or physical trauma occurred - unless the physical trauma was the immediate cause of death. So people will likely make assumptions about the findings, e.g. that First Nations children were only likely to have suffered from malnutrition or physical trauma while at residential school - and that any physical trauma resulting in death must have been committed by residential school staff.

It seems to me you're walking on thin ice with this statement. It seems to me you're implying this malnutrition and physical abuse happened at home and not in the schools.

I'm quite clearly saying it may have happened at home or at school. We will likely have no way of knowing. It is no more fair or reasonable to assume one than it is the other.

Intentionally clouding the water to misdirect the investigation away from documented reports of neglect to instead raise a red herring of 'possible' neglect at home.

Intentionally directing any investigation in one direction, toward a predetermined outcome, is wrong.

If you're going to make claims like this i would counsel you to provide substantiated evidence or maybe keep this opinion to yourself.

It's not an "opinion" that children have suffered from malnutrition in their homes. This is true all over the world - why would any reasonable person be expected to believe the First Nations children of Canada did not?

For instance, to support my position that the directors of these institutions didn't really care about the children I would provide these statements that highlight government indifference to the suffering of the children in order to achieve the goals of the 'schools':

“It is readily acknowledged that Indian children lose their natural resistance to illness by habituating so closely in the residential schools, and that they die at a much higher rate than in their villages. But this alone does not justify a change in the policy of this Department, which is geared towards a final solution of our Indian Problem.”
Duncan Campbell Scott

and a letter to the Medical Director of Indian Affairs noted in 1953 that:
“…children are not being fed properly to the extent that they are garbaging around in the barns for food that should only be fed to the barn occupants.”

You seem to have assumed people need proof that First Nations children were not immune to the same malnutrition that affected all other populations. Perhaps you're right - perhaps people do believe all First Nations children always had access to adequate nutrition at home.

You repeat over and over that highlighting the negative affects of the 'schools' misses the point that there were positive affects too.

This should go without saying. What I've repeated over and over is that we fail truth, reconciliation and the children in these graves by taking a one-sided opinion and shutting down discussion of all but the negatives.

This ignores the fact that eliminating the negative affects (malnutrition, abuse, cultural devastation, future dysfunction, etc.) by providing better care for the children in a setting that nurtured instead of abused them would also result in positive outcomes.

I've never suggested we should ignore those negative affects. I've consistently said we should discuss the whole truth.

'It was a sign of the times!" is also missing the point that there were voices calling for better care at the time. Voices like Dr Peter Bryce Medical Inspector to the Department of the Interior and of Indian Affairs, that at the time consistently called on DCS to provide better care for the ill and malnourished children. For his troubles Bryce was fired and blacklisted, so while you say not everyone treated first Nations poorly; those that did were promoted and those that didn't were silenced.

I have quoted the Bryce Report in other threads. Along with other documentation and records which provide us with clear evidence there were people fighting the government of the day to force improvements to the residential schools and for First Nations.

No one speaking the truth should be silenced.

There are people here saying the higher illness and deaths were also a sign of the times, every child faced the risk of illness. However not every child faced the same level of risk as shown in this graph:

Table B23-34.jpg

This shows that while the death rate of the general Canadian population aged 5-14 declined steadily from the 20's to the 50's, the death rates of children in the Residential School system were consistently 3-5x the national average until the 50's.

The graph does not disprove any of these truths: mortality rates were higher, more children were more severely ill, and the mortality rates were higher in residential schools. What the graph does not prove is why. We can make assumptions or look for the truth. In all likelihood the higher rates were a result of a combination of unfavourable conditions at residential schools juxtaposed against improving conditions (and possibly some genetic protection from recurring European diseases) for children not attending residential schools.

What I'm saying is that we do no good by jumping to conclusions. We see the results in the anger and distrust and re-traumatization and hurt and pain. Some First Nations leaders are calling on us to come together and work our way through this. I'm with them - let's get through this.

[Ken7]

https://regina.ctvnews.ca/catholic-chur ... -1.4450286

Now, many of the graves in the cemetery are unmarked. But according to Lerat it was not always that way.

“All the headstones were removed,” said Lerat. “I know the workers who were working here. They were the ones that picked them all up.”

Interesting when you read through some articles. I think many people have jumped to conclusion. Is there a possibility other graveyards were cleaned up in respect to those who lay to rest?? The memories are damaging to those who lost their loved ones.

I feel more of the story is missing when we reflect back in time....

[Silverstarqueen]

https://regina.ctvnews.ca/catholic-chur ... -1.4450286

Now, many of the graves in the cemetery are unmarked. But according to Lerat it was not always that way.

“All the headstones were removed,” said Lerat. “I know the workers who were working here. They were the ones that picked them all up.”

Interesting when you read through some articles. I think many people have jumped to conclusion. Is there a possibility other graveyards were cleaned up in respect to those who lay to rest?? The memories are damaging to those who lost their loved ones.

I feel more of the story is missing when we reflect back in time....

As long as we are talking about "context": It is a promise by the Catholic Church that it will maintain its cemeteries (which generaly include those baptized as Catholics , that would include all residential kids that died in their care) . Even when a parish is closed, that responsibility is passed on to some other Catholic parish priests. This is in respect for the dead, and in anticipation of their ascent to heaven. Also the burial is never a secret business, there are rites and rituals which are to be performed. All baptisms and deaths would normally be recorded and these records kept as part of their sacred duty.
Any sins brought to bear against the children who were molested or cruelly beaten, would have been confessed (so someone knew) and if not, the perpetrators would have been condemned to hell. Incidentally an apology to the victim(s) is not the same as confession of the sins to a priest. Forgiveness would have to come from God, not the victims.
"Christ's stern warning about protecting children
"If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!" (Matthew 18:6–7, NIV)

When Jesus had something important to say, He often used hyperbole. This was His way of communicating the sheer magnitude of what He was trying to communicate. You see this in the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus tells the crowd, "And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away" (Matthew 5:30, NIV).

When it comes to temptation, we're all responsible for our own behavior. But here Jesus wants His listeners to understand the dangers of being the vehicle through which temptation comes. If your behavior leads innocent children astray, it's better to be tossed into the depth of the sea than to face the judgment of Jesus."

[Brass Monkey]

Think of it this way, where would they be if they had never had schooling?? You know very well, and you are play dumb on this one. Not all students were in your cesspool of failure. Some were saved from where they came from and what they lived in. Be honest, you are playing the poor me card again.

Maybe they would be like my grandmother who is a full blooded Indian woman who went to a regular school and got to enjoy regular school student things like playing basketball and learning how to sew. Residential schools did little, if anything, to “save” Indians from the reserves and conditions imposed by the government.

You love to pull all the negative out of every story. You obviously read the Treaties where it was decided by Government and your Indiginous leaders that they wanted their people schooled.

The indigenous leaders made sponsored education a treaty right, that is what they agreed on. What they did not agree on is a clause in the Indian Act making it compulsory for registered Indians to attend these horrible schools where crimes were knowingly taking place. Do you think indigenous leaders advocated for the cutting of hair and beating their own language out of the children? Come on.

At the time there obviously those who had met felt this was best for those involved. Hind sight is always 20 -20, and we can all see that.

And there was those who hated natives so greatly they sought to kill off everything native about them.

"We instil in them a pronounced distaste for the native life so that they will be humiliated when reminded of their origins," wrote Bishop Grandin in 1875. "When they graduate from out institutions, the children have lost everything Native except their blood."

It is not different then Social services becoming involved with Indiginous children. End of the day, if parents parented would there be a need to foster children??

Parenthood on reserves faltered greatly since the formation of reserves and the daily struggles that have followed. Why do we witness the abject failure on the part of the Canadian Government but continue to deny self determination for entire communities? It’s a disgusting joke.

Why are people today not accepting responsibility and being accountable?? No if there is a short coming, it is always someone else fault. No one wants to accept the fact if no one cares for a child, someone is expected to do so, and it Government does not they will once again be called down by Indiginous people.

Therefore, what is the answer? Should the Canadian Federal Government step down and see if your people can survive on their own or fail? I can hear it all now.

The Canadian Government should abolish the Indian act and reinstate aboriginal title to the land so that the indigenous can once again take care of themselves. The Canadian Government and it’s governance of Indians was and continues to be an absolute failure and nothing has been a larger detriment to indigenous survival and livelihood than the government and its abusive minions.

[the truth]

Maybe now, at the very least, records will actually be released.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.6078260

no way in hell- - the church hands over anything they do not want too, never going to happen.


not the best way to get people on your side https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#338248

safe bet this will catch on fire across canada

[Silverstarqueen]

Maybe now, at the very least, records will actually be released.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.6078260

no way in hell- - the church hands over anything they do not want too, never going to happen.
not the best way to get people on your side https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#338248

This is where Catholics have a say in things, if they have a conscience. Once the truth is known about what went on for many decades, in the name of the Catholic church , if the Holy Fathers start looking at empty pews, there's would be a fresh breeze blow thru the Church. This , I believe is why the atrocities were kept secret for so long. I know my parents would have been horrified if they had known what was happening to those children. So now Catholics all over the world will know. It cannot be explained away or denied any longer. This wasn't just "a few bad apples", this was not just "education". And how can our Government continue to have an organization like the Catholic church, still have control of educational institutions for children?

[Silverstarqueen]

Maybe now, at the very least, records will actually be released.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.6078260

no way in hell- - the church hands over anything they do not want too, never going to happen.
not the best way to get people on your side https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#338248
safe bet this will catch on fire across canada

On whose "side"? At this point investigators don't seem to know if these were random vandals, outraged Catholics, defrocked priests, or someone bitten by a fire-bug, or what message exactly is being sent,if any.
A few years ago when things got very dry out there, someone was setting fires, for the heckuvit. The last thing any communities need in mid-summer.

[ferri]

Being discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=88902

[Ken7]

Maybe they would be like my grandmother who is a full blooded Indian woman who went to a regular school and got to enjoy regular school student things like playing basketball and learning how to sew. Residential schools did little, if anything, to “save” Indians from the reserves and conditions imposed by the government.

Your Grandmother was not the only Indiginous person to go to a school other then residential school. I had many indiginous students as friends in school and they lived in residential homes. As for saving them, you always said how poor they were? Well if they were poor, lived in substandard homes, where possibly not cared for. The residential school would be a step up and yes, saved them for the school year. Again, you're in deep denial. Later on you speak of parenting diminishing, well at least someone would be caring for them providing the essentials, of a roof over their head, clean clothing and food. Yes you can not make one eat and it is possible the food was not what they grew up on.

The indigenous leaders made sponsored education a treaty right, that is what they agreed on. What they did not agree on is a clause in the Indian Act making it compulsory for registered Indians to attend these horrible schools where crimes were knowingly taking place. Do you think indigenous leaders advocated for the cutting of hair and beating their own language out of the children? Come on.

What crimes are you speaking of? You are a real story teller when it comes to history. In the day even white children were taken to school if they parents did not make that effort. Were you unaware of that? At that time, I highly doubt they they were beating the Indian language out of them. They may have schooled them that Cree or what ever language was not the language in school. You exaggerate this to it's extreme.

And there was those who hated natives so greatly they sought to kill off everything native about them.

Come on know, not all of us here actually believe this. If that was the case there would truly have been a genocide. I think the use or term of genocide is a extreme exaggeration when speaking of indiginous people, why because if that was the case you likely wouldn't be here to story tell.

"We instil in them a pronounced distaste for the native life so that they will be humiliated when reminded of their origins," wrote Bishop Grandin in 1875. "When they graduate from out institutions, the children have lost everything Native except their blood."

I'd sure like to hear the context this quote was drawn from. It is somewhat like you, you pull a portion of ones statement and attempt to put words in ones mouth. You have done this many times to the point some of the people hear don't partake in your posts.

Parenthood on reserves faltered greatly since the formation of reserves and the daily struggles that have followed. Why do we witness the abject failure on the part of the Canadian Government but continue to deny self determination for entire communities? It’s a disgusting joke.

Why not accept responsibility. Parenting is more then a egg or sperm donation. What daily struggle, do they not take care of their own on the reserve? I'm aware housing is built by Government? I have a mortgage, auto costs and living expenses, it's a tough go for sure! There are no handouts from anyone to my daily struggle.

You can never accept responsibility can you. That is a disgusting joke when you constantly do that, were you ever held to account for your actions, or is it someone else should have, could have and did not.

The Canadian Government should abolish the Indian act and reinstate aboriginal title to the land so that the indigenous can once again take care of themselves. The Canadian Government and it’s governance of Indians was and continues to be an absolute failure and nothing has been a larger detriment to indigenous survival and livelihood than the government and its abusive minions.

Would they survive as I asked? Would Social Services and Mental Health be relived from any contact or responsibility and it would all be cared for by your people? What about the utilities, such as water?? Currently they can't keep a viable source without intervention on reserves?

Would they go back to living on the land, hunting in traditional ways help with with your line of thinking. You speak of abusive minions, your Government is small enough we can see that from the outside. It is very apparent when you speak to your very own people on how the abuse is.

Why do Indiginous people not hold their very own Government and leaders to task? I know one who wished to build his own home, at his expense on the reserve. He was told forget it, there is not land for you.

[rustled]

https://regina.ctvnews.ca/catholic-chur ... -1.4450286

Now, many of the graves in the cemetery are unmarked. But according to Lerat it was not always that way.

“All the headstones were removed,” said Lerat. “I know the workers who were working here. They were the ones that picked them all up.”

Interesting when you read through some articles. I think many people have jumped to conclusion. Is there a possibility other graveyards were cleaned up in respect to those who lay to rest?? The memories are damaging to those who lost their loved ones.

I feel more of the story is missing when we reflect back in time....

Also interesting to note the date on this news story. It's two years old.

The Catholic Church is taking steps to try and mend a complicated history with Cowessess First Nation.

The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Regina has invested $70,000 to help identify unmarked grades, and add fences and trees in the Cowessess Cemetery.

SNIP

Donald Bolen, the Archbishop of Regina, hopes the funding can help meet some of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission’s calls to action.

“Calls to action 73 to 75 specifically call for churches that were involved in residential schools to become engaged in precisely that kind of work,” said Bolen.

Cowessess Chief Cadmus Delorme said this project is a positive step towards reconciliation.

“This is showing our kids that we can overcome and move forward,” said Delorme.

SNIP

The project will use old records to identify the remains and provide a map and a monument to the people buried in the Cowessess Cemetery.

Recent news stories didn't explain that the project has been underway for two years, with assistance from the Catholic church. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.

[Brass Monkey]

Your Grandmother was not the only Indiginous person to go to a school other then residential school. I had many indiginous students as friends in school and they lived in residential homes. As for saving them, you always said how poor they were? Well if they were poor, lived in substandard homes, where possibly not cared for. The residential school would be a step up and yes, saved them for the school year. Again, you're in deep denial. Later on you speak of parenting diminishing, well at least someone would be caring for them providing the essentials, of a roof over their head, clean clothing and food. Yes you can not make one eat and it is possible the food was not what they grew up on.

The residential school system was an absolute failure in every regard and left thousands and thousands of children with everlasting memories of being neglected by foreign strangers. You justify residential schools through knowing that the reserves were not adequate in providing families what they needed. It's almost like you admit Canada is a failure but will not outright say it.

What crimes are you speaking of? You are a real story teller when it comes to history. In the day even white children were taken to school if they parents did not make that effort. Were you unaware of that? At that time, I highly doubt they they were beating the Indian language out of them. They may have schooled them that Cree or what ever language was not the language in school. You exaggerate this to it's extreme.

These are not my stories. These are the stories of countless former students that recall the abuse they suffered in those residential schools. They were indeed punished for speaking their native languages. Vernon Jacks tells his story of being orally and anally assaulted for 3 years by multiple men in a residential school in BC but his recollection is too graphic to post here.

From residential school survivor Marcel Guiboche :

“A sister, a nun started talking to me in English and French, and yelling at me. I did not speak English, and didn’t understand what she, what she was asking. She got very upset, and started hitting me all over my body, hands, legs and back. I began to cry, yell, and became very scared, and this infuriated her more. She got a black strap and hit me some more.”

Come on know, not all of us here actually believe this. If that was the case there would truly have been a genocide. I think the use or term of genocide is a extreme exaggeration when speaking of indiginous people, why because if that was the case you likely wouldn't be here to story tell.

I am here and thousands others are not because 90% of our ancestors were eradicated by British and Canadian settlement. I don't know how 90% of a people can be starved, displaced and outright killed and it is not called genocide.

I'd sure like to hear the context this quote was drawn from. It is somewhat like you, you pull a portion of ones statement and attempt to put words in ones mouth. You have done this many times to the point some of the people hear don't partake in your posts.

That quote from Bishop Grandin IS the context, I didn't put words in his mouth, he said it and it is documented. John A. Macdonald said something similar in 1883:

"When the school is on the reserve the child lives with its parents, who are savages; he is surrounded by savages, and though he may learn to read and write his habits, and training and mode of thought are Indian. He is simply a savage who can read and write. It has been strongly pressed on myself, as the head of the Department, that the Indian children should be withdrawn as much as possible from the parental influence, and the only way to do that would be to put them in central training industrial schools where they will acquire the habits and modes of thought of white men."

Why not accept responsibility. Parenting is more then a egg or sperm donation. What daily struggle, do they not take care of their own on the reserve? I'm aware housing is built by Government? I have a mortgage, auto costs and living expenses, it's a tough go for sure! There are no handouts from anyone to my daily struggle.

You can never accept responsibility can you. That is a disgusting joke when you constantly do that, were you ever held to account for your actions, or is it someone else should have, could have and did not.

Your daily struggle is nothing compared to that of indigenous people in many communities. You wouldn't have traded your life or childhood for that of an Indian at any point in your life. You don't want government housing, you don't want to own land that the bank will not give you a mortgage on.

Would they survive as I asked? Would Social Services and Mental Health be relived from any contact or responsibility and it would all be cared for by your people? What about the utilities, such as water?? Currently they can't keep a viable source without intervention on reserves?

WFN already proved that Indians are better at taking care of themselves than the government that ruined them in the first place. Once out from the Indian Act and Federal oversight WFN showed just how much of a failure the Canadian Government is.

Would they go back to living on the land, hunting in traditional ways help with with your line of thinking. You speak of abusive minions, your Government is small enough we can see that from the outside. It is very apparent when you speak to your very own people on how the abuse is.

Or maybe they would build up their communities to become economically sustainable and provide benefits and opportunities to their community members like Canada has not been able to.

Why do Indiginous people not hold their very own Government and leaders to task? I know one who wished to build his own home, at his expense on the reserve. He was told forget it, there is not land for you.

Wouldn't it be nice if they could draft their own constitution and include an amendment that ensures all members have an equal share and say in the band owned assets? Too bad the Indian Act doesn't allow that power.

[GordonH]

The whole concept of these schools right from get go was terrible idea. This is me looking back into time.

[Ken7]

Also interesting to note the date on this news story. It's two years old.


Recent news stories didn't explain that the project has been underway for two years, with assistance from the Catholic church. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.

News stories try and sell them selves. Like the Indiginous people on this site, they sometime do not tell the rest of the story. As sad as this story is, it is not all that the Media has projected and some people take it hook line and sinker without looking into it.

There is more to the story as there is to the sad stories, those indiginous people who will likely not move forward like to project. I call it the poor me syndrome.

[rustled]

Also interesting to note the date on this news story. It's two years old.


Recent news stories didn't explain that the project has been underway for two years, with assistance from the Catholic church. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.

News stories try and sell them selves. Like the Indiginous people on this site, they sometime do not tell the rest of the story. As sad as this story is, it is not all that the Media has projected and some people take it hook line and sinker without looking into it.

There is more to the story as there is to the sad stories, those indiginous people who will likely not move forward like to project. I call it the poor me syndrome.

^^And this does more harm than good, always.

With "journalism" like this, it's no surprise people are torching churches:

The destruction of the churches come in the wake of the discoveries of a mass grave at the site of the Kamloops Indian Residential School, followed by another in Saskatchewan.

https://www.castanet.net/news/Penticton ... the-ground

The destruction of the churches comes in the wake of shoddy journalism. There was NO mass grave in Kamloops or at Cowessess, and these graveyards were NOT discovered.

Crow says the investigations into both fires are in their early stages, but the fires have already had an impact on his community.

"It's a big impact," he told Castanet. "We still have our Christian and Catholic followers, and they just had service a couple weeks ago at that church. They were very upset on Monday when the two churches were burnt in Osoyoos and Penticton. Now that these one's have burnt, it's devastating to them.”

Would people be as angry if they knew what the media is failing to tell them about these gravesites? Would people be as angry if they understood the two-year process of mapping the Cowessess site?

Shoddy journalism sells. It also breeds ignorant responses and reactions that only heap hurt upon hurt.