Crane collapse downtown

Even Steven
Guru
Posts: 7854
Joined: Mar 24th, 2015, 7:20 pm

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by Even Steven »

60-YEARS-in-Ktown wrote: Jul 15th, 2021, 9:03 amIf everyone had a hardhat on, and everyone had their fall restraints on, How.. would this have changed the outcome ?
Not having hard hats and not having fall restraints are indicators of poor safety culture. By itself, it wouldn't prevent the accident. But these are good indicators of complacency. Safety starts with little things and leads up to big things. If somebody can't wear a hard hat on a job because he's too cool - he's probably not doing something else. Same with playing with the phone while they should be focusing on keeping the crane stable and balanced.
TylerM4
Lord of the Board
Posts: 4059
Joined: Feb 27th, 2014, 3:22 pm

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by TylerM4 »

Even Steven wrote: Jul 15th, 2021, 9:10 am
Not having hard hats and not having fall restraints are indicators of poor safety culture. By itself, it wouldn't prevent the accident. But these are good indicators of complacency. Safety starts with little things and leads up to big things. If somebody can't wear a hard hat on a job because he's too cool - he's probably not doing something else. Same with playing with the phone while they should be focusing on keeping the crane stable and balanced.
Exactly. The other thing to consider: These are glaringly obvious and highly visible safety steps/requirements not being followed. These guys weren't just "not following the rules" they were blatantly ignoring them for the world to see. If they're skirting the obvious rules, what are they doing about the safety steps/rules that aren't so obvious and visible?

An analogy: If you've got people riding in the box of a pickup, there's a good chance the people in the cab aren't wearing seatbelts or the driver doesn't have a valid license.

I've worked jobsites starting as young as 15yo some 25+ years ago. Even back then, hard hats were mandatory. I learnt on my 1st job that even when working on the roof of the building with nothing above, even when it's 42* outside and sweltering you wore your lid. If my boss caught us without our lids, there was hell to pay... and you hoped it was the boss that caught you and not Worksafe or the site super. Haven't worked a proper jobsite in over 10 years but I suspect the rules have only gotten stricter since.
Last edited by TylerM4 on Jul 15th, 2021, 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
crookedmember
Banned
Posts: 2872
Joined: Jan 8th, 2011, 9:43 am

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by crookedmember »

Even Steven wrote: Jul 15th, 2021, 9:10 am

Not having hard hats and not having fall restraints are indicators of poor safety culture. By itself, it wouldn't prevent the accident. But these are good indicators of complacency. Safety starts with little things and leads up to big things. If somebody can't wear a hard hat on a job because he's too cool - he's probably not doing something else. Same with playing with the phone while they should be focusing on keeping the crane stable and balanced.
I'd tend to agree. Note the professionals/engineers brought in to clean-up the damaged crane are wearing hard hats and using fall restraints.


Image
All posts 100% moderator approved!
User avatar
60-YEARS-in-Ktown
Guru
Posts: 5078
Joined: Sep 24th, 2006, 11:43 am

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by 60-YEARS-in-Ktown »

I get what you guys are basically saying.. it looks like things may not have been done right.
But also, I will leave the investigating to the persons assigned to do that job.

The hardhat thing , it has been repeatedly pointed out that it may not he required.

Your pickup box analogy is flawed..yes there is a chance the people in cab may akso be doing something incorrect, but to say is highly likely they have no license is really stretching your imagination.

And I think you are wrong about Worksafe, i dont think they would say much to a non hardhat wearer.. might ask a question or two, will order you to leave and get one........ but the boss or super... is going to gear the brunt of what will happen..
I'd like to help You OUT,
Which way did You come in??
Even Steven
Guru
Posts: 7854
Joined: Mar 24th, 2015, 7:20 pm

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by Even Steven »

60-YEARS-in-Ktown wrote: Jul 15th, 2021, 9:07 am Its a LEIBHERR Crane , not a LILLIPUT Crane... its designed for 6 foot tall men to work on without running into "metal bars ".
It's just an example of why hard hats are required while working. Again, it's a good indicator of non-existent safety culture. On good worksites something this simple gets you fired. No arguing whether or not there's something above you, nobody wants to hear that the crane is designed for grown men. You're gone because you don't take things seriously and one day you will injure either yourself or someone else (or both). For some people following safety rules is just not cool. They'd rather cowboy it up, work fast and quick because they're young and dumb. And post videos for Instagram instead of focusing on operating a crane.

Small things lead up to big things.
Last edited by Even Steven on Jul 15th, 2021, 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
crookedmember
Banned
Posts: 2872
Joined: Jan 8th, 2011, 9:43 am

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by crookedmember »

60-YEARS-in-Ktown wrote: Jul 15th, 2021, 9:34 am I get what you guys are basically saying.. it looks like things may not have been done right.
But also, I will leave the investigating to the persons assigned to do that job.

The hardhat thing , it has been repeatedly pointed out that it may not he required.

Your pickup box analogy is flawed..yes there is a chance the people in cab may akso be doing something incorrect, but to say is highly likely they have no license is really stretching your imagination.

And I think you are wrong about Worksafe, i dont think they would say much to a non hardhat wearer.. might ask a question or two, will order you to leave and get one........ but the boss or super... is going to gear the brunt of what will happen..

I'm not an expert, nor is anyone else here, but not wearing hard hats, not using restraints and posting to instagram while dismantling a 25 story crane doesn't just NOT look like things were done right, it just isn't right.
All posts 100% moderator approved!
soupy
Grand Pooh-bah
Posts: 2138
Joined: May 14th, 2006, 10:31 pm

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by soupy »

kgcayenne wrote: Jul 15th, 2021, 9:06 am I truly hope the one guy who survived (wearing his fall arrest gear) is getting support and financial assistance. I watched him—he was shaking horribly—as he prepared his harness for the shimmy across the tower support arm.
Agreed. That individual was there first hand and would have seen and lived through this deadly incident.
It is possible that his life was saved by wearing his fall protection when the accident occurred, or possibly he was located on a lower section that did not fall.
I cannot fathom the the fear and how scary that situation was having to climb down the rest of the structure to safety.
He will receive financial assistance and counselling from WorkSafeBC
techrtr
Übergod
Posts: 1621
Joined: Jul 5th, 2005, 7:47 am

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by techrtr »

What a terrible summer this has been. First the KSS kids and now this. I feel so bad for those poor guys and their families. I wonder if the rush to get these buildings up is causing companies to compromise safety.
User avatar
60-YEARS-in-Ktown
Guru
Posts: 5078
Joined: Sep 24th, 2006, 11:43 am

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by 60-YEARS-in-Ktown »

I ALREADY SAID, I basically get what you are saying.
The man tbat survived was likely in the part left standing. The horizontal part came down, and probably the shelf part where the being removed sections slide out may have come off, and that is probably where the rest of the crew was.
Last edited by Catsumi on Jul 15th, 2021, 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Typos corrected
I'd like to help You OUT,
Which way did You come in??
User avatar
crookedmember
Banned
Posts: 2872
Joined: Jan 8th, 2011, 9:43 am

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by crookedmember »

soupy wrote: Jul 15th, 2021, 9:47 am
kgcayenne wrote: Jul 15th, 2021, 9:06 am I truly hope the one guy who survived (wearing his fall arrest gear) is getting support and financial assistance. I watched him—he was shaking horribly—as he prepared his harness for the shimmy across the tower support arm.
Agreed. That individual was there first hand and would have seen and lived through this deadly incident.
It is possible that his life was saved by wearing his fall protection when the accident occurred, or possibly he was located on a lower section that did not fall.
I cannot fathom the the fear and how scary that situation was having to climb down the rest of the structure to safety.
He will receive financial assistance and counselling from WorkSafeBC
Given the way the tower was twisted, concrete balconies broken off, and the fact the impact was felt around the city, there's probably a good chance he was knocked from his perch and saved by his gear.

Can't imagine how traumatic this must be for the guy.
All posts 100% moderator approved!
TylerM4
Lord of the Board
Posts: 4059
Joined: Feb 27th, 2014, 3:22 pm

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by TylerM4 »

60-YEARS-in-Ktown wrote: Jul 15th, 2021, 9:34 am Your pickup box analogy is flawed..yes there is a chance the people in cab may akso be doing something incorrect, but to say is highly likely they have no license is really stretching your imagination.
Good thing I didn't use that wording in my analogy then.

Regardless, The point is that you're more likely to find hidden safety violations if there are clearly visible safety violations already exhibited. It wasn't really talking to the difference in likelihood, just that it's "more likely".

What do you mean "hardhat wasn't required"? It's required if you don't want fines and/or to get shut down. They had tones of steel being dismantled above them, heavy large wrenches/tools that could be dropped, etc. The most you can say is that "hardhats wouldn't have prevented this accident".
Last edited by TylerM4 on Jul 15th, 2021, 12:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mrmarvingardens
Board Meister
Posts: 487
Joined: Jan 28th, 2009, 6:50 pm

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by Mrmarvingardens »

I wonder where some of those posting here, get their information.
First, there was one man, the operator was on the crane when it fell
Two Stemmer brothers and owners of the Leibherr crane were on the ground, along with a 21 year old who was on his first day of work.(He had worked for the Stemmer's in the past, several years ago)
The vertical, not the horizontal was collapsing at the top triangular building support, but stayed at the vertical.The boom had fallen
The lower support is where the workman was seen making his way back to safety in the building from the vertical, still standing after the collapse.
It is interesting that there is no training for crane workers or operators, as now advocated by the Operating Engineers, and as they have been doing for many years.
Also noted how quick CEO Mission Group Jonathon Freisen quickly distanced the Mission group: " the crane and operators were not part of his work force."
Working on the cheap, non union, untrained is a way of the world now.
Would proper training have prevented this terrible accident? Maybe. maybe not.Engineering analysis that will come might provide some answers.
Even Steven
Guru
Posts: 7854
Joined: Mar 24th, 2015, 7:20 pm

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by Even Steven »

techrtr wrote: Jul 15th, 2021, 9:55 amI feel so bad for those poor guys and their families. I wonder if the rush to get these buildings up is causing companies to compromise safety.
At the end of the day, it's up to the crane company to follow safety procedures, it's up to the most senior guy there to make sure safety is followed, and fix the issues as he sees them. There's nobody above them at that moment (literally). That's why I don't understand why people knock Mission Group - it was these 5 workers there, Mission Group doesn't have to supervise them.

But the most senior guy was probably the one who was filming the video for Instagram.
Vacancyrate
Banned
Posts: 3581
Joined: Mar 15th, 2018, 1:42 pm

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by Vacancyrate »

crookedmember wrote: Jul 15th, 2021, 9:25 am I'd tend to agree. Note the professionals/engineers brought in to clean-up the damaged crane are wearing hard hats and using fall restraints.
"...but there was nothing overhead and if they crane bucket failed the fall restrains wouldn't save them anyways!"

So amazing to read so many people defending not wearing a hard hat on a construction site.

Then again this is the cowboy Okanagan where small family run businesses run the show.

Yeeeee hawww we're making money building luxury condos!
Trixster
Banned
Posts: 306
Joined: Jun 22nd, 2019, 6:08 am

Re: Crane collapse downtown

Post by Trixster »

Did anyone else notice how fast John Friesen from the Mission Group distanced himself and his company from Stremmer Construction.

Return to “Central Okanagan”