Electric Vehicles

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GordonH
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by GordonH »

bb49 wrote: Jul 16th, 2021, 3:44 pm
Bsuds wrote: Jul 16th, 2021, 3:38 pm

At todays prices the performance increase doesn't justify the cost difference to go to the higher grade.

I have read many articles that say to not waste your money on high octane fuel.
Though some vehicles require premium, many people still insist on wasting their money on it.
Why would you put premium in a pick-up? Watched a woman at Costco fill her older F150 with premium. She took 100 litres and paid something like $.19 a litre more than regular. Maybe her husband insists on that. [icon_lol2.gif]
Majority of vehicles on the road today are computer controlled engine with knock sensor, unless you are made of money don’t bother with expensive gasoline.
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OKkayak
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by OKkayak »

Bsuds wrote: Jul 16th, 2021, 1:28 pm
I've had a decrease in performance for a few years now.

Other than some whining from Mrs Suds it hasn't bothered me much. :biggrin:
[icon_lol2.gif]
GordonH wrote: Jul 16th, 2021, 3:55 pm
Majority of vehicles on the road today are computer controlled engine with knock sensor, unless you are made of money don’t bother with expensive gasoline.
Theres a difference between filling up a car with 91 when that only requires 87 and filling up a car with 91 when that car requires 91, and it requires 91 for a heck of a lot more reasons than knock sensors.
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GordonH
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by GordonH »

Bsuds wrote: Jul 16th, 2021, 1:28 pm
I've had a decrease in performance for a few years now.

Other than some whining from Mrs Suds it hasn't bothered me much. :biggrin:
[icon_lol2.gif]
GordonH wrote: Jul 16th, 2021, 3:55 pm Majority of vehicles on the road today are computer controlled engine with knock sensor, unless you are made of money don’t bother with expensive gasoline.
OKkayak wrote: Jul 16th, 2021, 11:28 pm Theres a difference between filling up a car with 91 when that only requires 87 and filling up a car with 91 when that car requires 91, and it requires 91 for a heck of a lot more reasons than knock sensors.
Again if one can afford the vehicle price tag then that same person can afford the extra price at the pumps.

The higher octane number the slower the fuel burns... that’s it (it eliminates pre-ignition), doesn’t increase fuel mileage or power. These 2 things are just in people’s heads.
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OKkayak
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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GordonH wrote: Jul 17th, 2021, 12:45 am
The higher octane number the slower the fuel burns... that’s it (it eliminates pre-ignition), doesn’t increase fuel mileage or power. These 2 things are just in people’s heads.
Geezus Gordon, I'm not taking about pumping 91 into a car that only needs 87, I'm talking about average cars that require 91.

If your vehicle, requires a higher octane its not just "in your head" The engine is specifically designed for higher octane using a higher compression ratio than a car with a lower octane rating and if you use a lower octane than required by the manufactures design, you will get pre-ignition and all that money you saved pumping lower octane gas will go towards a new engine.

At one point in time, it was more expensive, high performance cars that required premium fuel, so your argument of "if you can afford the car" was relevant, but today more and more non-high performance and average priced cars are requiring it so that old adage is no longer relevant.
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GordonH
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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GordonH wrote: Jul 17th, 2021, 12:45 am
The higher octane number the slower the fuel burns... that’s it (it eliminates pre-ignition), doesn’t increase fuel mileage or power. These 2 things are just in people’s heads.
OKkayak wrote: Jul 17th, 2021, 2:08 am Geezus Gordon, I'm not taking about pumping 91 into a car that only needs 87, I'm talking about average cars that require 91.

If your vehicle, requires a higher octane its not just "in your head" The engine is specifically designed for higher octane using a higher compression ratio than a car with a lower octane rating and if you use a lower octane than required by the manufactures design, you will get pre-ignition and all that money you saved pumping lower octane gas will go towards a new engine.

At one point in time, it was more expensive, high performance cars that required premium fuel, so your argument of "if you can afford the car" was relevant, but today more and more non-high performance and average priced cars are requiring it so that old adage is no longer relevant.
In your head comment was directed at 2 myths:
1) increases power
2) increases fuel economy

I guess I’ve fortunate not to own one of these vehicles that requires slower burning fuel/higher octane.
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Bsuds
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by Bsuds »

I have a KIA Seltos with a 1.6l turbo.

From Kia's own info their only model where premium grade fuel is required is the Stinger.

All other models will operate just fine on regular fuel.
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by rustled »

GordonH wrote: Jul 17th, 2021, 12:45 amAgain if one can afford the vehicle price tag then that same person can afford the extra price at the pumps.

The higher octane number the slower the fuel burns... that’s it (it eliminates pre-ignition), doesn’t increase fuel mileage or power. These 2 things are just in people’s heads.
It can't be just in people's heads, GordonH. I had to document my car's mileage for work - it made a remarkable difference when my mechanic told me to switch to higher octane. Also, our bike's smaller fuel tank makes it particularly obvious when we're in the US and have to fill up with lower octane - a full tank won't take us as far. We've observed this over a couple hundred thousand K, taking into account wind/elevations/road surface conditions etc. - lower octane = less distance.

One of the reasons we're not interested in electric vehicles at this time is that we'd need an ICE for long-distance trips north or east.
...do some internal evaluation; Are you aiming to tell the truth or just "win"? Are you aiming to inform or to promote a narrative? Have you checked your facts or are you just accepting what you are told? Ad Nausica
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GordonH
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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GordonH wrote: Jul 17th, 2021, 12:45 amAgain if one can afford the vehicle price tag then that same person can afford the extra price at the pumps.

The higher octane number the slower the fuel burns... that’s it (it eliminates pre-ignition), doesn’t increase fuel mileage or power. These 2 things are just in people’s heads.
rustled wrote: Jul 17th, 2021, 8:14 am It can't be just in people's heads, GordonH. I had to document my car's mileage for work - it made a remarkable difference when my mechanic told me to switch to higher octane. Also, our bike's smaller fuel tank makes it particularly obvious when we're in the US and have to fill up with lower octane - a full tank won't take us as far. We've observed this over a couple hundred thousand K, taking into account wind/elevations/road surface conditions etc. - lower octane = less distance.

One of the reasons we're not interested in electric vehicles at this time is that we'd need an ICE for long-distance trips north or east.
As I have said higher octane the slower burning equals less knock & ping.

Did my own experiment as close to an empty tank as possible.
Filled up regular chevron gasoline went east next fill up Brooks Alberta.
Next trip east, empty my tank as much as possible again.
Filled up with supreme plus at chevron, got out to Brooks Alberta

Got the same 5.3 litres per 100 Km

Because my vehicle is computer controlled ignition, I don’t get ping or knock on regular gasoline.
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Jlabute
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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These electric vehicles were a disaster.
$24 million worth of electric buses (about 1 million per bus) suffering chassis cracks due to heavy batteries put out to pasture.

https://freebeacon.com/biden-administra ... -shambles/
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OKkayak
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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Jlabute wrote: Jul 19th, 2021, 1:11 pm These electric vehicles were a disaster.
$24 million worth of electric buses (about 1 million per bus) suffering chassis cracks due to heavy batteries put out to pasture.

https://freebeacon.com/biden-administra ... -shambles/
Sounds like a poorly designed bus. Battery buses might weigh 3000 to 5000lbs more than a comparable diesel bus which is the same difference in weight with a typical trolley bus which don't seem to be having any issues.

Edited to add:

Just did a bit of reading up on Proterra, yeah, its not the batteries that are the problem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proterra_ ... r)#Defects

Other bus manufacturers like Nova or New Flyer just take their existing model chassis and swap out the engine/drive train with either a trolley system or BEV system. Proterra decided to be trendy and use plastic and other composites, hence the issues.
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Bsuds
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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As well as your reference to trolley buses. Aren't they powered through overhead wires, so no battery weight?
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OKkayak
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by OKkayak »

Bsuds wrote: Jul 19th, 2021, 1:53 pm As well as your reference to trolley buses. Aren't they powered through overhead wires, so no battery weight?
Most of the newer trolley buses built in the last couple of decades have a small battery that can give the bus a few miles of off-wire range just in case they need to pull the poles down. Most of the weight comes from the collector mechanism and power convertor.

If you look at New Flyers webpage, the 40 ft Xcelsior diesel comes in at 27 750lbs and the trolley version at 30 500lbs.

https://www.newflyer.com/buses/
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Jlabute
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by Jlabute »

Gotcha. It is what the article had said. The bus was ill-designed using incorrect materials or material dimensions with insufficient strength? The materials wouldn't had been a problem if it were diesel, but I suppose the weight of the batteries were not given proper consideration in materials consideration?

Apparently Proterra buses were removed from service in Minnesota. Not enough range on hilly terrain.

https://www.duluthmonitor.com/2020/09/1 ... -problems/
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OKkayak
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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Jlabute wrote: Jul 19th, 2021, 2:03 pm Gotcha. It is what the article had said. The bus was ill-designed using incorrect materials or material dimensions with insufficient strength? The materials wouldn't had been a problem if it were diesel, but I suppose the weight of the batteries were not given proper consideration in materials consideration?
That I don't know. I would think in the long term, they would be having chassis issues regardless of the power plant simply from potholes, regular wear and tear and passenger loads. Translink has been testing both Nova and New Flyer BEVs over the last couple of years and haven't had any chassis issues yet, Route 100 from Marpole to 22nd Street Station will be completely BEV powered next year.

Jlabute wrote: Jul 19th, 2021, 2:03 pmApparently Proterra buses were removed from service in Minnesota. Not enough range on hilly terrain.

https://www.duluthmonitor.com/2020/09/1 ... -problems/
Thats the one advantage trolleys have, hills don't matter, they go up hills like its nothing. Only time they get bogged down is when several busses are on the same stretch of wire, but as soon as a bus passes an insulator it'll be like a turbo boost lol.

I'm on the same page with you when it comes to EV vehicles for personal use, we're still a long ways off for them to really become the norm, but I think for transit, they're ideal.
Last edited by OKkayak on Jul 19th, 2021, 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by OKkayak »

Toronto tested out the Proterra as well, didn't score too highly there either, compared to other manufacturers:

https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commis ... ead_to.pdf

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