The push to end homelessness.

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foenix
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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GordonH wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 9:50 am Here’s the question, does the homeless actually want to no longer be homeless.

Some maybe yes (these wouldn’t trash home provided), others not so much (these apartments would most likely be trashed).
The successful programs like MH and Finland has many levels of support for the homeless and they are slowly integrated back into mainstream society. It's a win win situation for both sides if everyone gets on board. Penticton's situation is an example of how not to go about it from both sides.
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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rustled wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 8:46 am Perception bias is unhelpful when it leads to exaggeration of the negative interactions, and it is unhelpful when it leads to accusing those experiencing negative interactions of "fear and prejudice".
I'll give you that, there are people who think the Mayor is doing the right thing, just as there are those predisposed against housing projects of this nature. I don't see how one is "perception bias" while the other is not.

There are long term housing projects in operation already, and other than isolated incidents they have not been a big bother, not to the extent that the temporary shelter downtown has seen. Is there evidence that the spike in property crime that came up around the temporary shelter has occurred around those operations offering permanent residence ?
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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There's this:

https://www.pentictonherald.ca/news/art ... 39155.html

"According to the fresh data, of the 3,604 calls for service received by the RCMP in the first quarter of 2021, 145 were to the old Victory Church at 352 Winnipeg St., 110 were to the Compass Court supportive housing and shelter complex at 1706 Main St., 45 were to Burdock House supportive housing facility at 594 Winnipeg St., and 19 were to the Fairhaven supportive housing complex at 2670 Skaha Lake Rd. Such calls range from nuisances and mischief to thefts and assaults.

Collectively, those calls represented about 6.4% of the detachment’s overall volume for the quarter.

Both the old Victory Church and Compass Court are operated by the Penticton and District Society for Community Living, while Burdock House and Fairhaven are operated by the ASK Wellness Society.

Hunter said it’s no surprise the old Victory Church, which houses dozens of the city’s most vulnerable people, is a hotspot for police, but acknowledged “there are no other areas that can complete with that number of calls for service in our community."


It would be interesting to look at the differences in the way these projects are managed, it looks like Ask Wellness has a much better track record than PDSCL.
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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fluffy wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 10:55 am
rustled wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 8:46 am Perception bias is unhelpful when it leads to exaggeration of the negative interactions, and it is unhelpful when it leads to accusing those experiencing negative interactions of "fear and prejudice".
I'll give you that, there are people who think the Mayor is doing the right thing, just as there are those predisposed against housing projects of this nature. I don't see how one is "perception bias" while the other is not.
Of course they both are. It doesn't seem particularly helpful to me to discuss peoples' perceptions of politicians' motivations - that's not what I was referring to.

I was pointing out that the perception bias that has lead to calling people who are telling us they are being tormented "nimbys" (who are overblowing the problems they're having) is every bit as unhelpful as the perception bias of those who are opposed to addressing homelessness.
fluffy wrote:There are long term housing projects in operation already, and other than isolated incidents they have not been a big bother, not to the extent that the temporary shelter downtown has seen. Is there evidence that the spike in property crime that came up around the temporary shelter has occurred around those operations offering permanent residence ?
As I said earlier, we should be able to point to our successful long term strategies.

It's no good trying to do that when Eby is basically telling the community that the security of people his government is warehousing in various facilities (without regard for their vastly different needs), and the security of people living near those facilities, doesn't matter as much as making sure we immediately house all of the homeless in whatever facilities he dictates, regardless of the consequences for everyone.

We can look at the property crime maps for the city to see that sort of negative consequence. What the property crime maps won't show us is how many people living near the shelters, and living both in and near similar housing projects, feel trapped in their own homes, what toll the disruptions to their lives is taking on them, and the property crimes people have given up reporting.
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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fluffy wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 11:07 am There's this:

https://www.pentictonherald.ca/news/art ... 39155.html

"According to the fresh data, of the 3,604 calls for service received by the RCMP in the first quarter of 2021, 145 were to the old Victory Church at 352 Winnipeg St., 110 were to the Compass Court supportive housing and shelter complex at 1706 Main St., 45 were to Burdock House supportive housing facility at 594 Winnipeg St., and 19 were to the Fairhaven supportive housing complex at 2670 Skaha Lake Rd. Such calls range from nuisances and mischief to thefts and assaults.

Collectively, those calls represented about 6.4% of the detachment’s overall volume for the quarter.

Both the old Victory Church and Compass Court are operated by the Penticton and District Society for Community Living, while Burdock House and Fairhaven are operated by the ASK Wellness Society.

Hunter said it’s no surprise the old Victory Church, which houses dozens of the city’s most vulnerable people, is a hotspot for police, but acknowledged “there are no other areas that can complete with that number of calls for service in our community."


It would be interesting to look at the differences in the way these projects are managed, it looks like Ask Wellness has a much better track record than PDSCL.
Good management is vital, but it's also important to look at the clientele each agency is dealing with.

As I recall, Burdock House does have the basic expectation of not tormenting one's neighbours - seems to me they've kicked people out who were causing problems for other residents and the neighbourhood.

ETA: https://www.castanet.net/news/Penticton ... ore-issues
Hughes said his staff at Burdock have had to evict two people since opening due to concerns that their behaviour was not conducive to security and safety in the community.
City bylaw supervisor Tina Siebert said they have not seen an uptick in complaint calls from the area since the facility opened. They also have seen a small dent in the number of people they see sleeping on the streets.

"Burdock is definitely doing a great job, and the City has noticed, with our community safety officers, that a few less rough sleepers are in the area," Siebert said. "But we are finding there are some new people that are arriving that we aren't sure are Penticton residents."

Const. James Grandy of Penticton RCMP said they "support Burdock House" and "routinely meet with staff and residents, and have also met with neighbours of the complex to address their concerns."
This is what's needed - realistic responses that consider the entire community.

Then the question becomes, are we able to house the people go who can't be housed in Burdock?
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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rustled wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 11:52 am I was pointing out that the perception bias that has lead to calling people who are telling us they are being tormented "nimbys" (who are overblowing the problems they're having) is every bit as unhelpful as the perception bias of those who are opposed to addressing homelessness.
That would depend on whether or not the complaints have a basis in fact or not, wouldn't it? "Torment" is a pretty strong word if the basis of any comment is more in fear and prejudice than actual fact.
As I said earlier, we should be able to point to our successful long term strategies.

It's no good trying to do that when Eby is basically telling the community that the security of people his government is warehousing in various facilities (without regard for their vastly different needs), and the security of people living near those facilities, doesn't matter as much as making sure we immediately house all of the homeless in whatever facilities he dictates, regardless of the consequences for everyone.
As you say, the residents have vastly different needs, and the services provided at that point will have to be tailored to meet those needs, that's a no-brainer. But one thing that's a for-sure, is that these people need homes, and whatever comes after will be much easier and cheaper to accomplish once they are in homes.
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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rustled wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 11:56 amAs I recall, Burdock House does have the basic expectation of not tormenting one's neighbours - seems to me they've kicked people out who were causing problems for other residents and the neighbourhood.
A similar policy is in place at Fairhaven.
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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fluffy wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 12:48 pm
rustled wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 11:52 am I was pointing out that the perception bias that has lead to calling people who are telling us they are being tormented "nimbys" (who are overblowing the problems they're having) is every bit as unhelpful as the perception bias of those who are opposed to addressing homelessness.
That would depend on whether or not the complaints have a basis in fact or not, wouldn't it? "Torment" is a pretty strong word if the basis of any comment is more in fear and prejudice than actual fact.
As I said earlier, we should be able to point to our successful long term strategies.

It's no good trying to do that when Eby is basically telling the community that the security of people his government is warehousing in various facilities (without regard for their vastly different needs), and the security of people living near those facilities, doesn't matter as much as making sure we immediately house all of the homeless in whatever facilities he dictates, regardless of the consequences for everyone.
As you say, the residents have vastly different needs, and the services provided at that point will have to be tailored to meet those needs, that's a no-brainer. But one thing that's a for-sure, is that these people need homes, and whatever comes after will be much easier and cheaper to accomplish once they are in homes.
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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fluffy wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 12:48 pm But one thing that's a for-sure, is that these people need homes, and whatever comes after will be much easier and cheaper to accomplish once they are in homes.
I would disagree. The only "accomplishment" most of these people's minds are preoccupied with is how to get another fix. Housing them won't change that.
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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fluffy wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 12:48 pm
rustled wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 11:52 am I was pointing out that the perception bias that has lead to calling people who are telling us they are being tormented "nimbys" (who are overblowing the problems they're having) is every bit as unhelpful as the perception bias of those who are opposed to addressing homelessness.
That would depend on whether or not the complaints have a basis in fact or not, wouldn't it? "Torment" is a pretty strong word if the basis of any comment is more in fear and prejudice than actual fact.
This seems to me to be a pretty good example of what perception bias is - the predetermined belief that the basis for any comment is more in fear and prejudice than actual fact.

Some people are tormented by the behaviours of some of the homeless:
Hughes said his staff at Burdock have had to evict two people since opening due to concerns that their behaviour was not conducive to security and safety in the community.
If you have another you prefer to describe the likely impacts of someone's "behaviour not conducive to security and safety of the community" on those around them, feel free to use it.
fluffy wrote:
As I said earlier, we should be able to point to our successful long term strategies.

It's no good trying to do that when Eby is basically telling the community that the security of people his government is warehousing in various facilities (without regard for their vastly different needs), and the security of people living near those facilities, doesn't matter as much as making sure we immediately house all of the homeless in whatever facilities he dictates, regardless of the consequences for everyone.
As you say, the residents have vastly different needs, and the services provided at that point will have to be tailored to meet those needs, that's a no-brainer. But one thing that's a for-sure, is that these people need homes, and whatever comes after will be much easier and cheaper to accomplish once they are in homes.
Once again: it will be easier to get the homeless into homes if we ARE willing to work with the community to make sure no one in the program is tormenting anyone else in the community. Your own research has shown over and over that well-run programs are successful, a component of a well-run program is the expectation of not tormenting the rest of the residents and the neighbouring community, so I find it rather surprising you're so unwilling to acknowledge that not having this one very basic and very humane expectation in place will lead instead to community pushback.
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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BC Landlord wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 2:12 pm
fluffy wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 12:48 pm But one thing that's a for-sure, is that these people need homes, and whatever comes after will be much easier and cheaper to accomplish once they are in homes.
I would disagree. The only "accomplishment" most of these people's minds are preoccupied with is how to get another fix. Housing them won't change that.
While I don't think this is true of most of the homeless, it's likely true of many of the homeless who torment the other residents of the facilities and the rest of the community. Addictions, mental health issues, often both. Any program would certainly need this data to help determine how best to go about attempting to house the homeless in a way that fosters community buy-in.
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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BC Landlord wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 2:12 pmI would disagree. The only "accomplishment" most of these people's minds are preoccupied with is how to get another fix. Housing them won't change that.
Somehow that line of thought doesn't surprise me. That would be the "fear and prejudice" of which I speak.
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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rustled wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 2:53 pmThis seems to me to be a pretty good example of what perception bias is - the predetermined belief that the basis for any comment is more in fear and prejudice than actual fact.

Are you denying the existence of fear and prejudice when it comes to homelessness ? Just read some of the other drivel being posted here and tell me these people have an open mind.
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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fluffy wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 3:56 pm
rustled wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 2:53 pmThis seems to me to be a pretty good example of what perception bias is - the predetermined belief that the basis for any comment is more in fear and prejudice than actual fact.

Are you denying the existence of fear and prejudice when it comes to homelessness ?
Nope.

Nor am I denying that some of the homeless do torment the other residents and their neighbours.
fluffy wrote:Just read some of the other drivel being posted here and tell me these people have an open mind.
Why would I do that? Their minds aren't the topic, and it's not up to me to judge anyone. It's up to each of us to work on our own perception bias and how it influences us to take public stances we perhaps shouldn't be taking.

:topic: Some of the homeless are incredibly difficult to house. It's human nature to think everyone wants what we want - not everyone does.

In a humane society, we want to help those who are vulnerable.

In a humane society, we have various rules to ensure we're not negatively impacting each other.

In a humane society, it's not easy to set up housing for everyone.

In a humane society, we do our best to create, promote and support programs that do not provide secure housing for some at the expense of the security of those around them. And that requires that we are honest: some of the homeless will torment their fellow shelter residents and their neighbours.
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Re: The push to end homelessness.

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fluffy wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 3:56 pm
rustled wrote: Aug 4th, 2021, 2:53 pmThis seems to me to be a pretty good example of what perception bias is - the predetermined belief that the basis for any comment is more in fear and prejudice than actual fact.

Are you denying the existence of fear and prejudice when it comes to homelessness ? Just read some of the other drivel being posted here and tell me these people have an open mind.
I see the same perception bias that would torment the homeless by dumping feces on the shelter's door steps, then when caught on camera hastily offers an apology because he doesn't want his business to be impacted. I see the same perception bias from the mayor who owns multiple businesses and buildings near the shelter doing his best to spend 300K of taxpayer dollars and punt 42 homeless to the curb because making money is more important to him than caring for the have nots.
Last edited by foenix on Aug 4th, 2021, 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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