End the lockdown

[rustled]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the latest developments too, BC Landlord. We've gone from "lockdown for the greater good" to "lock some people out for the greater good".

Initially, we were led to believe the vaccinations would be similar to smallpox or polio vaccinations - they would prevent transmission and ensure herd immunity to protect those most vulnerable.

Scientists are now telling is we will NOT develop herd immunity for COVID-19 - the vaccines will not stop us from transmitting COVID-19 to other people whether they are vaccinated or not. This is very different from the vaccines for measles, mumps etc. we were required to have in order to enter public school while we were co-operating to eliminate those diseases. It's more like the annual flu vaccine which, as we all know, will can never expect to eliminate the flu. We know we are likely to be exposed to a variant of the flu each flu season unless we isolate ourselves completely.

These COVID-19 vaccines will only reduce - not eliminate - the likelihood of us getting so sick we need to be hospitalized and/or suffer long-term consequences.

Preventing unvaccinated people from going to, say, a restaurant doesn't protect anyone from anything.

Banning unvaccinated people from restaurants seems highly unlikely to reduce the impacts on our hospitals and caregivers to any extent - the unvaccinated (and those for whom the vaccines didn't work) will be mixing with vaccinated people in other environments, and if any transmission occurs in those environments the vaccinated people will take COVID-19 from those environments to the restaurant, the hockey game, the movie theatre - everywhere that banned the unvaccinated.

Does banning unvaccinated people from some locations even reduce the likelihood of mutation? It seems highly unlikely.

Preventing unvaccinated people from going to restaurants probably will force some people who didn't get the vaccine because the can't be bothered, and the end result of that may - MAY - be fewer hospitalizations and fewer long-term health impacts.

Preventing unvaccinated people from going to restaurants is pretty much certain to exacerbate the growing distrust of those who already don't trust vaccines - and those who don't trust the government.

IMO, unless there is a good science-based case - using what we know today, not what we used to assume - for banning unvaccinated people from participating normally in normal society, these vaxports are a further source of division in an already too-angry world.

Without a strong basis in science, the vaxports are social engineering. IMO, plenty of people who strongly support sensible, science-based policy to keep people safe and protect our limited hospital resources will only be put off by the manipulative use of this pandemic for social engineering.

Yes! Can you copy and paste this to every thread in this board where there's a discussion of covid? lol
~

Thanks kindly. (BC Landlord, too.) I think I'd get in big trouble for reposting it everywhere. Maybe someone could do an abridged version? I'm always much too long-winded.

[spooker]

Initially, we were led to believe the vaccinations would be similar to smallpox or polio vaccinations - they would prevent transmission and ensure herd immunity to protect those most vulnerable.

Scientists are now telling is we will NOT develop herd immunity for COVID-19 - the vaccines will not stop us from transmitting COVID-19 to other people whether they are vaccinated or not. This is very different from the vaccines for measles, mumps etc. we were required to have in order to enter public school while we were co-operating to eliminate those diseases. It's more like the annual flu vaccine which, as we all know, will can never expect to eliminate the flu. We know we are likely to be exposed to a variant of the flu each flu season unless we isolate ourselves completely.

We were lucky that both Smallpox and Polio didn't mutate as quickly as we've seen Covid-19 ... unfortunately it's due to this that we're still stuck here ... the medical system has tried to be as open as they can but they're learning as they go along and then passing along anything new they learn ... confusion abounds for those of us not living everyday in the scientific method

These COVID-19 vaccines will only reduce - not eliminate - the likelihood of us getting so sick we need to be hospitalized and/or suffer long-term consequences.

Preventing unvaccinated people from going to, say, a restaurant doesn't protect anyone from anything.

Banning unvaccinated people from restaurants seems highly unlikely to reduce the impacts on our hospitals and caregivers to any extent - the unvaccinated (and those for whom the vaccines didn't work) will be mixing with vaccinated people in other environments, and if any transmission occurs in those environments the vaccinated people will take COVID-19 from those environments to the restaurant, the hockey game, the movie theatre - everywhere that banned the unvaccinated.

Does banning unvaccinated people from some locations even reduce the likelihood of mutation? It seems highly unlikely.

Preventing unvaccinated people from going to restaurants probably will force some people who didn't get the vaccine because the can't be bothered, and the end result of that may - MAY - be fewer hospitalizations and fewer long-term health impacts.

Preventing unvaccinated people from going to restaurants is pretty much certain to exacerbate the growing distrust of those who already don't trust vaccines - and those who don't trust the government.

IMO, unless there is a good science-based case - using what we know today, not what we used to assume - for banning unvaccinated people from participating normally in normal society, these vaxports are a further source of division in an already too-angry world.

Without a strong basis in science, the vaxports are social engineering. IMO, plenty of people who strongly support sensible, science-based policy to keep people safe and protect our limited hospital resources will only be put off by the manipulative use of this pandemic for social engineering.

One thing that's left out of all the pushback on the vaccination passport policy is that it's only for "non-essential" activity ... considering that unvaccinated have a higher chance of catching it if exposed versus those who opted to get vaccinated an if they do catch it they also have a much higher chance of being hospitalized it does make sense to limit their exposure ... but nothing "essential" is being blocked for anyone ...

Everything that is being put behind the passport is related to things that involve random crowds of people ... restaurants, concerts, events, gyms etc ... pretty much the main crossover locations where those of us in Kelowna would have had interaction with tourists which I have heard plenty of people blame for the uptick in cases here ... let's get more people vaccinated so we can get back to some semblance of normal whatever that ends up being after our world has shifted so drastically with the pandemic ...

[MAPearce]

Thanks kindly. (BC Landlord, too.) I think I'd get in big trouble for reposting it everywhere. Maybe someone could do an abridged version? I'm always much too long-winded.

Your "long wind '" is appreciated .

[Hurtlander]

The government mandating that all government employees and all healthcare workers be fully vaccinated for Covid is eventually going to eventually cost the government (we the taxpayers) $Millions, possibly even $Billions once the Supreme Court of Canada rules that forcing Canadians to put something in their bodies, against their will, is a complete violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms... The government is going to be sued big time...... This is why one of the guys running to be PM is refusing to make Covid vaccines mandatory, because it’s illegal to do so... Note; I’m not arguing the pro’s and con’s of the Covid vaccines, just the legality of locking people out of non-essential services if they aren’t vaccinated, or forcing government regulated employees to be vaccinated.
Same goes for the government forcing mandatory three day hotel quarantine at their own expense on Canadian citizens returning from abroad up until recently, the SCoC will definitely rule against the government.

[Ka-El]

... Note; I’m not arguing the pro’s and con’s of the Covid vaccines, just the legality of locking people out of non-essential services if they aren’t vaccinated, or forcing government regulated employees to be vaccinated.

Businesses have always had the right to refuse service to customers (“no shirts, no shoes, no service”) based on health or safety concerns, or even disruptions to other customers. I agree there are some ethical and privacy concerns in asking people if they have been vaccinated, but this isn’t something entirely new. I had to show proof of vaccination to get into the public school system. Being locked out of a non-essential service is not a violation of your rights if it can be presumed your actions (or inactions) will put staff or other customers at risk. Business already has that right. People do have the freedom to choose not to get vaccinated, but like all adults they will need to accept and live with the consequence of their choice.

In the education sector, multiple universities have dipped their toes in the waters of mandatory vaccination. Some campuses are requiring students to be fully vaccinated before moving into a university residence. One institution, Seneca College, took this one step further — requiring any eligible students stepping foot on campus to be vaccinated.

Those choosing not to get a vaccine can continue to pursue their studies online.

“We’re not forcing anybody, actually. We actually not making vaccines mandatory. We’re saying if you want to come on campus, you must be vaccinated,” David Agnew, the president of Seneca College, told Global News on Tuesday.

Other businesses are also exploring the idea of requiring their patrons to be vaccinated. Filmores, a Toronto-based gentleman’s club, is asking its customers to be fully inoculated against COVID-19 before walking into the establishment.

“I have a moral and legal responsibility to provide the safest workplace possible,” said Kaspar Cameron, manager of Filmores.“We have no intention of infringing on anyone’s privacy. I realize that it’s a very fine line to balance the two. And we feel that the steps we have taken (are) in the best interest of our staff, our entertainers and our customers.”

He said he took the step after multiple employees voiced concerns ahead of reopening to the public.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8033977/covi ... niversity/

[mexi cali]

Coming to work knowingly carrying a highly transmissible disease into the workplace might be cause for termination.

Having a mental health condition (eg. delusional thinking) and refusing to treat it could at least be cause for suspension.

Fair enough. I was leaning on the line of healthy people requiring [medical intervention] to avoid termination.

As for coming to work with a highly transmissible disease or a mental health condition, it's currently the expectation to not come into work sick or unstable. Not having a COVID vaccine, it would be expected you stay home if ill.

When more than 80% of the population live hand to mouth, the vast majority of these people cannot afford to miss work even for a day. Those people knowingly show up for work sick and there you go.

We need a policy that allows sick days for all in order to curb this behavior.

I have to believe that in the long run it's cheaper to pay for employees for a few sick days than to have to close down because of an outbreak.

[mexi cali]

Not quite. As a vaccinated person you can still transmit the virus to others who can and will pass it to others beyond them. They get it, it mutates, and then pass that mutation on to others and the vicious circle continues.

Are you saying, .. even though I am vaccinated, I can infect another vaccinated person, ... and we all fall sick? Isn't that bizarre? Then, what's the purpose of the vaccination?
The bottom line is, .. when I decided to get vaccinated, that was to protect MYSELF, .. nobody else. And those who feel threatened can make their choices themselves. Period!

Except that, whether you realized it or not, you were also protecting others.

And one more time for the hard of hearing/comprehending.... The point of the vaccines it to LESSEN the severity of the infection should one come down with it therefore minimizing the need to die or become hospitalized. Either or.

Capiche??????????????????????????????

[Poindexter]

Scientists are now telling is we will NOT develop herd immunity for COVID-19 - the vaccines will not stop us from transmitting COVID-19 to other people whether they are vaccinated or not. This is very different from the vaccines for measles, mumps etc. we were required to have in order to enter public school while we were co-operating to eliminate those diseases. It's more like the annual flu vaccine which, as we all know, will can never expect to eliminate the flu. We know we are likely to be exposed to a variant of the flu each flu season unless we isolate ourselves completely.

No vaccine prevents a virus from entering your body.
All a vaccine can do, including the measles, is provide a cheat for immune system by letting it know in advance what the enemy looks like and the weapons to fight it immediately. What makes vaccines like the mumps and measles so effective is the nearly 100% vacinnation rate even though I believe the mumps vaccine only has 80% efficacy. The reason flu shots haven't wiped out the annual flu is only a small percentage receive the shot so each year it's given an environment where it can mutate enough to make prior years shot ineffective. The self fulfilling prophecy we're facing with covid is too many people are treating it like the annual flu and early indications are that's exactly what it will become as a result.

[rustled]

... Note; I’m not arguing the pro’s and con’s of the Covid vaccines, just the legality of locking people out of non-essential services if they aren’t vaccinated, or forcing government regulated employees to be vaccinated.

Businesses have always had the right to refuse service to customers (“no shirts, no shoes, no service”) based on health or safety concerns, or even disruptions to other customers.

You've mixed what businesses have the right to do with what businesses must do under health law.

Shirts and shoes are required for health reasons, at restaurants AND at grocery stores, too.

This is a case of the government forcing some businesses to enforce a new rule that is being arbitrarily applied to some businesses, not to others where health and safety should be of equivalent concern. Which suggests the rule isn't science-based to protect the public's health or safety, it's for social engineering purposes.

I agree there are some ethical and privacy concerns in asking people if they have been vaccinated, but this isn’t something entirely new. I had to show proof of vaccination to get into the public school system.

Covered that in the long-winded post above. Very, very different scenario.

Being locked out of a non-essential service is not a violation of your rights if it can be presumed your actions (or inactions) will put staff or other customers at risk.

It can't be presumed, though. Covered in the long-winded post above.

Business already has that right. People do have the freedom to choose not to get vaccinated, but like all adults they will need to accept and live with the consequence of their choice.

This isn't about businesses rights - businesses aren't making this decision. Government is making this decision.

In the education sector, multiple universities have dipped their toes in the waters of mandatory vaccination. Some campuses are requiring students to be fully vaccinated before moving into a university residence. One institution, Seneca College, took this one step further — requiring any eligible students stepping foot on campus to be vaccinated.

Those choosing not to get a vaccine can continue to pursue their studies online.

“We’re not forcing anybody, actually. We actually not making vaccines mandatory. We’re saying if you want to come on campus, you must be vaccinated,” David Agnew, the president of Seneca College, told Global News on Tuesday.

Other businesses are also exploring the idea of requiring their patrons to be vaccinated. Filmores, a Toronto-based gentleman’s club, is asking its customers to be fully inoculated against COVID-19 before walking into the establishment.

“I have a moral and legal responsibility to provide the safest workplace possible,” said Kaspar Cameron, manager of Filmores.“We have no intention of infringing on anyone’s privacy. I realize that it’s a very fine line to balance the two. And we feel that the steps we have taken (are) in the best interest of our staff, our entertainers and our customers.”

He said he took the step after multiple employees voiced concerns ahead of reopening to the public.
https://globalnews.ca/news/8033977/covi ... niversity/

These businesses are relying on old assumptions about herd immunity and the efficacy of these vaccines in preventing transmission.

Those assumptions have already proven erroneous.

Science says we will NOT have herd immunity, the vaccines will NOT prevent transmission. The measures Filmores and Seneca College are taking will not provide protection - the vaccinated people attending these venues can catch the virus and transmit the virus to others who are vaccinated, who will then transmit it to others.

[rustled]

Are you saying, .. even though I am vaccinated, I can infect another vaccinated person, ... and we all fall sick? Isn't that bizarre? Then, what's the purpose of the vaccination?
The bottom line is, .. when I decided to get vaccinated, that was to protect MYSELF, .. nobody else. And those who feel threatened can make their choices themselves. Period!

Except that, whether you realized it or not, you were also protecting others.

And one more time for the hard of hearing/comprehending.... The point of the vaccines it to LESSEN the severity of the infection should one come down with it therefore minimizing the need to die or become hospitalized. Either or.

The most recent science shows most vaccinated people are less likely to need hospitalization when they contract COVID, so we get the vaccination for ourselves and to relieve pressure on medical resources for others.

Unfortunately, the most recent science doesn't seem to show that when we are vaccinated, we are less likely to catch COVID or less likely to transmit it to others.

If anything, what seems to be happening now is that so many of us thought of this vaccine as similar to the smallpox or measles vaccines by providing long-term herd immunity, we now have a false sense of security that is leading to us doing more harm than good. I think the vaxports may prove to be an expensive and contentious way to worsen this false sense of security while aggravating people in an already too-angry world.

[Ka-El]

Businesses have always had the right to refuse service to customers (“no shirts, no shoes, no service”) based on health or safety concerns, or even disruptions to other customers.

You've mixed what businesses have the right to do with what businesses must do under health law.

Shirts and shoes are required for health reasons, …

Just like vaccinations, for the protection of staff and other customers.

Covered that in the long-winded post above.

Sorry, I’ve stopped reading and responding to long-winded posts.

[Silverstarqueen]

The Covid vaccines have reduced transmissions, reduced hospitalizations and reduced deaths in those countries which had widespread high levels of immunization, compared to no or low rates of immunization. Absolutely having vaccinated people allowed in businesses, especially indoor businesses and especially where people remove masks makes a huge difference in the rate of transmission, rates of severe illness, rate of deaths.

One would think that most people would be in favor of fewer shutdowns of businesses, schools, hospitals, and getting back to some kind of normalcy. the vaccines are a very important part of that plan.

[GordonH]

I’m getting the feeling I have missed something, is there a current lockdown happening.

[BC Landlord]

Except that, whether you realized it or not, you were also protecting others.

Absolutely, NOT! I couldn't care less about protecting people who refuse protection themselves. They've all made their conscious decisions, and I respect that. There are also people out there who still smoke cigarettes or do drugs, and they'll all end up in some ICU. But I don't go around and make them stop.

[rustled]

Scientists are now telling is we will NOT develop herd immunity for COVID-19 - the vaccines will not stop us from transmitting COVID-19 to other people whether they are vaccinated or not. This is very different from the vaccines for measles, mumps etc. we were required to have in order to enter public school while we were co-operating to eliminate those diseases. It's more like the annual flu vaccine which, as we all know, will can never expect to eliminate the flu. We know we are likely to be exposed to a variant of the flu each flu season unless we isolate ourselves completely.

No vaccine prevents a virus from entering your body.
All a vaccine can do, including the measles, is provide a cheat for immune system by letting it know in advance what the enemy looks like and the weapons to fight it immediately. What makes vaccines like the mumps and measles so effective is the nearly 100% vacinnation rate even though I believe the mumps vaccine only has 80% efficacy. The reason flu shots haven't wiped out the annual flu is only a small percentage receive the shot so each year it's given an environment where it can mutate enough to make prior years shot ineffective. The self fulfilling prophecy we're facing with covid is too many people are treating it like the annual flu and early indications are that's exactly what it will become as a result.

Science isn't showing us that there's any hope of vaccines doing with COVID what we've done with mumps and measles, though, even with a 100% vaccination rate.

Science is showing us there's nowhere near 80% efficacy from the COVID vaccines.

Banning people from some businesses based on their COVID vaccine status does not seem to be science-based at all.