Electric Vehicles

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BC Landlord
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by BC Landlord »

Jlabute wrote: Aug 23rd, 2021, 8:13 am GM is warning owners to NOT park their vehicles in a garage or near their homes.
That's funny ... So where do you park your car? A couple of blocks down the street, ... in front of someone else's home? [icon_lol2.gif]
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Jlabute
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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BC Landlord wrote: Aug 23rd, 2021, 11:56 am
Jlabute wrote: Aug 23rd, 2021, 8:13 am GM is warning owners to NOT park their vehicles in a garage or near their homes.
That's funny ... So where do you park your car? A couple of blocks down the street, ... in front of someone else's home? [icon_lol2.gif]
That sounds like a great idea! It seems to be mostly an issue when vehicles are parked, perhaps the solution is to not park them anymore? [icon_lol2.gif]
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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TylerM4 wrote: Aug 23rd, 2021, 8:41 am
Jlabute wrote: Aug 23rd, 2021, 8:13 am
It is an enormous recall. The recall has now been expanded to include the recently released Bolt EUV. This is what happens when you push immature technology. You waste time, money, and the environment. GM is warning owners to NOT park their vehicles in a garage or near their homes.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/08/gm ... euv-units/
Yes, this is a massive recall. By itself, it'll make the Bolt a money losing venture for GM.

I wonder about the comment about "immature battery technology" tho. Part of the process of building maturity is by putting thousands of them out there in the real world and having these problems manifest to learn from. The bolt's battery is no different than any other - so it's not like the technology itself isn't mature. I'd say this is more about the learning process than it's a reflection of "immature battery technology"
GM decided to jump on the government rebate train like everyone else and manufactures cars no one wants using thousands of Li-ion batteries in a life safety product. It is a dubious but accepted practice. Is it a matter of time before a whole apartment block burns down. Buses, cars, and megapacks have all recently gone up in flames. We need EVs quickly, and now is the message. Short-cut regulations.

Lithium chemistry for batteries is relatively mature and still incrementally improving, but, we have yet to make the battery chemistry technology ultra-safe in the context of using thousands of individual cells stacked together with SW/HW controlled temperature management systems where individual cell defects can be common. It just takes one cell to make a mess of the whole pack. A single battery has a greater chance of survival. We know lithium is not safe and the energy density can use improvement too. Solid state, or some other format is preferred. My personal opinion is that there are a lot of cons to the multi-cell EV packs. It is immature and will look vastly different 10 to 20 years from now.
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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Jlabute wrote: Aug 23rd, 2021, 12:25 pm
GM decided to jump on the government rebate train like everyone else and manufactures cars no one wants using thousands of Li-ion batteries in a life safety product. It is a dubious but accepted practice. Is it a matter of time before a whole apartment block burns down. Buses, cars, and megapacks have all recently gone up in flames. We need EVs quickly, and now is the message. Short-cut regulations.

Lithium chemistry for batteries is relatively mature and still incrementally improving, but, we have yet to make the battery chemistry technology ultra-safe in the context of using thousands of individual cells stacked together with SW/HW controlled temperature management systems where individual cell defects can be common. It just takes one cell to make a mess of the whole pack. A single battery has a greater chance of survival. We know lithium is not safe and the energy density can use improvement too. Solid state, or some other format is preferred. My personal opinion is that there are a lot of cons to the multi-cell EV packs. It is immature and will look vastly different 10 to 20 years from now.
Which regulations have been short-cut? Batteries are a "life safety device" - no more than the gas tank on a regular car. Just a couple of examples.

How is it that GM rushed, but everyone else didn't? Hybrid vehicles using the same style battery packs have been mass produced and on the road for almost 25 years already! The technology works and is proven at this point. Recalls still happen with gasoline engines or other components that have been on cars for decades. Why are you of the opinion that a recall involving a component that only exists on an EV is somehow a much bigger deal?

You know what's also not really safe? Driving around in a vehicle loaded with enough gasoline to level a house. IMO we're simply trading one risk for another.
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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TylerM4 wrote: Aug 23rd, 2021, 3:34 pm
Which regulations have been short-cut? Batteries are a "life safety device" - no more than the gas tank on a regular car. Just a couple of examples.
TylerM4 wrote: Aug 23rd, 2021, 3:34 pm How is it that GM rushed, but everyone else didn't?
GM is rushing "as are" everyone else to bring EVs to market is what I said. This green-rush has required the fast tracking of federal policies, charging stations, and everything else with no time available to use anything but existing technology whether it is adequate or not. Elon Musk had to go to war with regulators to fast track self-driving technologies. Pedestrians and drivers died in the self-driving war and now that technology has had the brakes applied to slow it down. GM's $2.0B battery debacle has cast a shadow over all EV manufacturers.
TylerM4 wrote: Aug 23rd, 2021, 3:34 pm You know what's also not really safe? Driving around in a vehicle loaded with enough gasoline to level a house. IMO we're simply trading one risk for another.
This is true. Not as though gasoline is 'safe'. Which risk would you put in your garage? I don't believe I've heard GM or other auto manufacturers tell us to not park our gas vehicles in our garages. Certainly Li-ion has its' challenges. It burns more intense and hot enough to melt every component of the vehicle - steel, aluminum, and everything else including the house. Once the fire is out, precautions must be made to ensure it doesn't start up again. I prefer the risk of a gas vehicle. As I have always said, I am waiting for better battery technology. EVs tend to seem more volatile when they are parked. Albeit the risk is small and maybe the same as gas vehicles, I would still rather have that risk placed outside the garage and wait until range and chemistry are improved.
TylerM4 wrote: Aug 23rd, 2021, 3:34 pm Hybrid vehicles using the same style battery packs have been mass produced and on the road for almost 25 years already! The technology works and is proven at this point. Recalls still happen with gasoline engines or other components that have been on cars for decades. Why are you of the opinion that a recall involving a component that only exists on an EV is somehow a much bigger deal?
The EV1 (1996 to 1999) used a lead-acid battery while later EV/hybrids used nickel-metal hydride. Tesla was the first to start using Li-ion back in 2008 but It took a while for Tesla to really ramp up significant production so the world hadn't seen many Li-ion EVs until 2012. We've been gaining a lot of knowledge since then but 8+ years is but a blip in engineering time and it is not enough time to develop safe chemistry such as solid state Lithium batteries. We're not expecting to see this until maybe 2030.
Significant numbers of EVs have not been around long enough for us to yet feel the wave of battery recycling about to hit. NiMH and Pb-Acid were at least safe and do not explode.

Tesla-Quarterly-Deliveries-Q1-2020-CleanTechnica.png
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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TylerM4 wrote: Aug 23rd, 2021, 3:34 pm You know what's also not really safe? Driving around in a vehicle loaded with enough gasoline to level a house. IMO we're simply trading one risk for another.
Hmmm, ... no! Gasoline in your tank doesn't start fires. Batteries do, and apparently spontaneously.
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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BC Landlord wrote: Aug 24th, 2021, 10:33 am
Hmmm, ... no! Gasoline in your tank doesn't start fires. Batteries do, and apparently spontaneously.
Well, fluids do cause fires as well, Hyundai for example, they've got quite the issue with their vehicles. Fortunately, a fire on a ICU vehicle is much easier to fight than one in an EV.

When I read GM's recommendation to park their EVs away from other cars and outdoors, etc., my first thought was, but all those spaces are already being occupied with Hyundai/KIAs because they're being told to do the same [icon_lol2.gif]
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Jlabute
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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Here's a riddle, what happens when you own two Tesla's and they are parked in your garage.
Answer: They both catch on fire along with the house. The lesson learned here is to not charge your EVs anymore.
Hardly any EV manufacturer has gone unscathed from enormous recalls. It has come down to faulty batteries. I feel sorry for this older couple, they could have died. Tesla did not come to their home and inspect the damage.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technolo ... esla-fire/
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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More information on auto manufacturers spending billions on EV recalls.

The trouble spots for electric vehicles are software and batteries—two areas crucial to electric vehicles that are not historically areas of expertise for U.S. automakers

...

The Chevrolet Bolt was first recalled due to several reported fires as a result of two “rare manufacturing defects” in the lithium-ion battery cells in the battery pack. GM issued a second recall of its 2017 to 2019 Chevrolet Bolt after at least two of the electric vehicles that were repaired for a previous problem caught on fire.
https://www.instituteforenergyresearch. ... e-recalls/
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh is promising to double funding for public transit projects to help municipalities make their public transit fleets fully electric by 2030.
https://www.castanet.net/news/Canada/34 ... ic-by-2030

Sounds like a rash promise given the current realities.
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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rustled wrote: Sep 7th, 2021, 8:48 am
NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh is promising to double funding for public transit projects to help municipalities make their public transit fleets fully electric by 2030.
https://www.castanet.net/news/Canada/34 ... ic-by-2030

Sounds like a rash promise given the current realities.
Why? due to the reports of battery recalls in consumer cars? ... just trying to connect the dots ...
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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spooker wrote: Sep 7th, 2021, 10:06 am
rustled wrote: Sep 7th, 2021, 8:48 am
https://www.castanet.net/news/Canada/34 ... ic-by-2030

Sounds like a rash promise given the current realities.
Why? due to the reports of battery recalls in consumer cars? ... just trying to connect the dots ...
Shortage of raw materials. Lack of infrastructure.
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Jlabute
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by Jlabute »

Good question.

It seems to me electric buses fail to live up to their hype, of course, they are a new technology and there will be bugs. There have been numerous unfavorable pilot experiences. Numerous areas of failure caused by climate, terrain, and unexpected breakdowns and fires. Any city signing up for electric buses (especially an entire fleet) is a Guinea pig at best and will look at MUCH higher costs to do the same job.

They are expensive (at a minimum of 2x the cost), there is a lack of operational savings, they need to deploy larger number of buses to do the same work as other technologies, and so forth. Natural gas could be a much better option. Does one also just replace good working buses rather than by attrition? That is a waste.

https://ngvamerica.org/wp-content/uploa ... r-2020.pdf

As far as EV fires go, there have been a number of recent parked bus fires in the USA, Germany, China, and so forth. One bus ignites, then a string of them parked beside each other burst in to flames. Some issues resulted with cracking batteries and frames due to retrofitting rather than offering a new design. Buses are in a 'trial mode'. I wouldn't buy them quite yet until the bugs are worked out. The few cities that have electric buses don't expect to be completely electric until 2050. Not sure how or why a 100% plan needs to be in place for 2030. Seems like an un-informed rash rush.


https://climate-science.press/2021/06/1 ... n-damages/

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/10 ... -first-one

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-yor ... e-33273548

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/133622 ... ty-checks/

https://www.ejinsight.com/eji/article/id/1203088
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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Jlabute wrote: Sep 7th, 2021, 12:28 pm As far as EV fires go, there have been a number of recent parked bus fires in the USA, Germany, China, and so forth. One bus ignites, then a string of them parked beside each other burst in to flames. Some issues resulted with cracking batteries and frames due to retrofitting rather than offering a new design. Buses are in a 'trial mode'. I wouldn't buy them quite yet until the bugs are worked out. The few cities that have electric buses don't expect to be completely electric until 2050. Not sure how or why a 100% plan needs to be in place for 2030. Seems like an un-informed rash rush.


https://climate-science.press/2021/06/1 ... n-damages/

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/10 ... -first-one

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-yor ... e-33273548

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/133622 ... ty-checks/

https://www.ejinsight.com/eji/article/id/1203088
Two of those links went to the same 2015 incident ... another incident in HK in 2015 ... the fourth was from 2011 ... and then the last was actually 2021, but it doesn't seem that there is any reporting that the fire was caused by the electric buses, only that in the case of fire they can be a hazard ...

The number of transit systems that are piloting programs as of 2020, typically for a 12-month period, shows that maybe the tech has matured to the right point where they can be considered reasonable alternatives ...

https://www.ridedart.com/electric-bus-pilot-program
https://www.sdmts.com/inside-mts-curren ... ot-program
https://www.cdta.org/news/electric-buses-roll-out
https://www.sfmta.com/projects/battery- ... us-program
https://www.ripta.com/projects/electric-bus/

And Vancouver has been running electric buses since 2019 and just ordered more ... https://globalnews.ca/news/7600410/batt ... vancouver/ ... any fires of note? or more news censorship?
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by Glacier »

Vancouver has been running electric buses since like 1910. Oh, you mean without the wires... ya, the battery operated ones are more recent. The thing about new technology is that it takes time to become cost effective. Governments should be putting money into R&D, which they are. This is a far better solution than forcing my mom to buy an electric car or pay a massive carbon tax when she lives 250km from town in the middle of nowhere.
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