Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

[fluffy]

No I did not say that.. you should go back and re read what was said. I'll put the key components of the statement which you misinterpreted "if you believe ..." and suggested the belief set is out there and easy to find when you asked for proof. Do you want proof that people believe that these are good ideas ?

If I misinterpreted you I apologize, your position was unclear in that first post. I was seeing some questionable sources and rhetorical buzz words that had me believing you were one of these hotheads making poor decisions based on poor information. To be truthful, I'm still not sure we're you're coming from.

[normaM]

some are blaming the unvaxxed for curtailing things and now the Passport. Personally I don't think the passport will stop being used even if Covid ever goes away
And yes I have seen both vaxxed and unvaxxed wish Covid on each other, denying medical services, etc
Like Lord of the Rings

[fluffy]

some are blaming the unvaxxed for curtailing things and now the Passport. Personally I don't think the passport will stop being used even if Covid ever goes away

Doing away with vax passports is a powerful political carrot, we're seeing that already in this election. We've also seen the relaxing of restrictions and precautions used politically, so far almost exclusively prematurely and with poor results. Finding some balance between political ambition and public safety is a huge challenge, especially at election time.

And yes I have seen both vaxxed and unvaxxed wish Covid on each other, denying medical services, etc
Like Lord of the Rings

There are hotheads on both sides of the fence, they make an amount of noise that is way out of proportion with their actual numbers.

A couple of big truths for me are 1.) the simple fact that the vast majority of Covid cases resulting in hospitalization are unvaccinated people says the vaccines are effective, and 2.) the majority of Canadians favor restrictions such as the vax passport and we do live in a democracy. I think that a minority attempting to force their will on the majority is just wrong, but I've found that actually voicing that opinion just elicits an even more aggressive response.

[Ka-El]

some are blaming the unvaxxed for curtailing things and now the Passport. Personally I don't think the passport will stop being used even if Covid ever goes away

The passport is going to be in effect until January 2022 as it is, and it was stated that could be extended. It will probably depend on transmission rates, as well as hospital capacity. If we have dolts continuing to spread the virus and it continues to mutate then health authorities are going to be left with little choice but to keep any and all public health measures in place.

[normaM]

Yes, except the the Summer when we invited everyone to come to Kelowna ( Open for business) I knew then we were nothing more than free range chickens.

[Rejigger]

If we have dolts continuing to spread the virus and it continues to mutate then health authorities are going to be left with little choice but to keep any and all public health measures in place.

And by "dolts", you mean:

a.) both the vaxxed and unvaxxed, right? Because both can carry and spread the virus.

...and...

b.) the MANY millions of people around the globe who don't yet have access to vaccines, right? Because that's where the mutations are coming from, around the globe.

You should know this by now. Or are you intentionally spreading misinformation?

It's chitty that I sound like a broken record, but I'll keep posting these facts every time I see someone else posting misinformation.
~

[foenix]

If we have dolts continuing to spread the virus and it continues to mutate then health authorities are going to be left with little choice but to keep any and all public health measures in place.

And by "dolts", you mean:

a.) both the vaxxed and unvaxxed, right? Because both can carry and spread the virus.

...and...

b.) the MANY millions of people around the globe who doesn't yet have access to vaccines, right? Because that's where the mutations are coming from, around the globe.

You should know this by now. Or are you intentionally spreading misinformation?

It's chitty that I sound like a broken record, but I'll keep posting these facts every time I see someone else posting misinformation.
~

The peeps in third world countries who doesnt have access to vaccines arent "dolts" but if one has access and dont get the jabs then yeah, considering what is going on in the States and here as the hospitalizations and deaths are mostly from the unvaxxed, then that's ignoring what's going on and therefore "dolts"

Unvaccinated 29 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19, CDC study says

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cnbc.co ... covid.html

Nearly all COVID deaths in US are now among unvaccinated

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus- ... 54f5d5e187

Unvaccinated in B.C. hospitalized with COVID-19 at a rate 17 times higher than fully vaccinated

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6151008

[two]

No I did not say that.. you should go back and re read what was said. I'll put the key components of the statement which you misinterpreted "if you believe ..." and suggested the belief set is out there and easy to find when you asked for proof. Do you want proof that people believe that these are good ideas ?

If I misinterpreted you I apologize, your position was unclear in that first post. I was seeing some questionable sources and rhetorical buzz words that had me believing you were one of these hotheads making poor decisions based on poor information. To be truthful, I'm still not sure we're you're coming from.

I do not think it was unclear, it was in text... your believing scenario is concerning as its becoming the norm for our culture to presume and misinterpret based on our militarized mentalities.

Poor decisions and poor information seems subjective and many low IQ alpha thinkers acting empowered by the information they choose on either side... I think given history we often have a majority of people being poor decision makers... I do not think getting the vaccination is a poor decision but feeling entitled about mandates and demanding people give up their medical freedoms and privacy is ludicrous.

Here is some FACTS worth noting:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/0 ... e-s03.html .
There is dozens of such information regarding the spread coming out globally that basically show the vaccination hardly stops the spread. Mandates are ridicules, education and informed consent is the only path forward without losing our humanity. Is it not obvious to you that the MSM is one sided and not a debate at all but a PR brainwashing machine ?

The amount of uncensored mis information coming from main stream media is alarming, while thousands dissenting scientists with facts have been censored this is ALARMING and FACT, that is not healthy science or debate, that is scientism and PR brainwash. The amount of fear, media control and misinformation on all sides and censorship regarding covid to me is of far greater concern to the future then covid itself.

I know your answer will side skirt the points I make and start talking about the vaccine efficacy regarding the seriousness once its caught but that only sides skirts my questions and points and I am not arguing that point and never have. if the vaccinated can spread it almost the same then there is no point in mandates that make the un vaccinated test while the vaccinated run free. It would be a fallacy to PRESUME that I support forced testing either from this comment, its just a point.

When people presume often its a poor faith to debates and often a programmed, rehearsed behaviour and shows a lack of open mindedness (not always). I know that is ironic after presuming your skirting my points, I am sorry for my presumptuousness. I will not be such an A hole debater in the future, seems to me there are hot heads on both sides and I do not mind that passion but often people presume and argue presumptions rather then openmindedly and even more often with so much hubris that its kinda sick.

There are hotheads on both sides of the fence, they make an amount of noise that is way out of proportion with their actual numbers.

A couple of big truths for me are 1.) the simple fact that the vast majority of Covid cases resulting in hospitalization are unvaccinated people says the vaccines are effective, and 2.) the majority of Canadians favor restrictions such as the vax passport and we do live in a democracy. I think that a minority attempting to force their will on the majority is just wrong, but I've found that actually voicing that opinion just elicits an even more aggressive response.

...If we have dolts continuing to spread the virus and it continues to mutate then health authorities are going to be left with little choice but to keep any and all public health measures in place.

There is a ton of infomration stating that vaccinated spread this its still debatable if there is a difference in how much and that will be hard to prove but the mental PR machine (that is often mis infomration) will be churning out swill to program your minds.

The only justifiable arguement for mandates was to stop the spread(and still not justifiable to my ethics and values), if its to prevent danger to our medical system then we should ban alchohol, smoking, and cars/boats/skiing/any deangerous sport for leisure since they are a danger to our medical system as well.

peoples fear and compulsion are ironically scaring me. The best thing we can collectively do now is distrust our leaders and the MSM and be a community of commoners.

[Rejigger]

The peeps in third world countries who doesnt have access to vaccines arent "dolts" but if one has access and dont get the jabs then yeah, considering what is going on in the States and here as the hospitalizations and deaths are mostly from the unvaxxed, then that's ignoring what's going on and therefore "dolts"

That's neither what the poster wrote about when he used the term "dolts", nor was it what I was responding to. He/she didn't mention hospitalizations in the quoted text.

If we have dolts continuing to spread the virus and it continues to mutate then health authorities are going to be left with little choice but to keep any and all public health measures in place.

-----

I do not think it was unclear, it was in text... your believing scenario is concerning as its becoming the norm for our culture to presume and misinterpret based on our militarized mentalities.

Yes, it was crystal clear. You said, "if you believe..."

~

[foenix]

The peeps in third world countries who doesnt have access to vaccines arent "dolts" but if one has access and dont get the jabs then yeah, considering what is going on in the States and here as the hospitalizations and deaths are mostly from the unvaxxed, then that's ignoring what's going on and therefore "dolts"

That's neither what the poster wrote about when he used the term "dolts", nor was it what I was responding to. He/she didn't mention hospitalizations in the quoted text.

~

Ok, I'm saying it then.

[two]

What is the point of vaccination passports?

[fluffy]

Here is some FACTS worth noting:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/0 ... e-s03.html .
There is dozens of such information regarding the spread coming out globally that basically show the vaccination hardly stops the spread. Mandates are ridicules, education and informed consent is the only path forward without losing our humanity. Is it not obvious to you that the MSM is one sided and not a debate at all but a PR brainwashing machine ?

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local ... 51373.html

Some additional information in the link above:

In the first week of classes, 304 undergraduates, 45 graduate students and 15 employees tested positive for COVID-19. All but eight of these individuals were vaccinated, and the vast majority of them are asymptomatic. A small number have minor, cold- and flu-like symptoms, and none have been hospitalized, according to the university.

Duke University boasts a student population of over 30,000, with an additonal 5000 in staff. That puts the percentage of infections in perspective. 97% of hospitalized cases in North Carolina have been the Delta variant, shown to be more resistant to the vaccines. Perhaps most important is the statement that none of the cases at Duke U. have resulted in hospitalization which shows the truth that the vaccines work to prevent serious cases.

The best thing we can collectively do now is distrust our leaders...

That is called anarchy.

[two]

Here is some FACTS worth noting:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/0 ... e-s03.html .
There is dozens of such information regarding the spread coming out globally that basically show the vaccination hardly stops the spread. Mandates are ridicules, education and informed consent is the only path forward without losing our humanity. Is it not obvious to you that the MSM is one sided and not a debate at all but a PR brainwashing machine ?

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local ... 51373.html

Some additional information in the link above:

In the first week of classes, 304 undergraduates, 45 graduate students and 15 employees tested positive for COVID-19. All but eight of these individuals were vaccinated, and the vast majority of them are asymptomatic. A small number have minor, cold- and flu-like symptoms, and none have been hospitalized, according to the university.

Duke University boasts a student population of over 30,000, with an additonal 5000 in staff. That puts the percentage of infections in perspective. 97% of hospitalized cases in North Carolina have been the Delta variant, shown to be more resistant to the vaccines. Perhaps most important is the statement that none of the cases at Duke U. have resulted in hospitalization which shows the truth that the vaccines work to prevent serious cases.

The best thing we can collectively do now is distrust our leaders...

That is called anarchy.

Anarchy is not a great system, but it is one that exists sometimes when changing from government structures.
Also you are wrong that it means anarchy its called healthy democracy trying to heal itself.

I do not claim that anarchy is needed here either, I suggest we reorganize these problems and collectively become more aware with one another and take back our government with democracy. All while using more grass roots forms of informing ourselves without the seed of MSM since its been so corrupted.

I am not anti government since it has all sorts of great working parts, our constitutional representative democracy is metaphorically a great ship that needs our attention, restoration, and upkeep . It is the pirates that are running the ship right now that need be identified and kicked off... They have been bought and paid for and are to spineless to face what is good for the commons.

This is what I purpose. Not anarchy but thanks for presuming the worst.

Also you nailed my presumptions dead on.. did you even read my entire statement before?... :( this is a sad state of affairs.

[foenix]

I am not anti government since it has all sorts of great working parts, our constitutional representative democracy is metaphorically a great ship that needs our attention, restoration, and upkeep . It is the pirates that are running the ship right now that need be identified and kicked off... They have been bought and paid for and are to spineless to face what is good for the commons.

Here's what I think is the problem with the paragraph......

politicians = pirates

......so there will always be pirates running our great ship, imo, of course.

[Rejigger]

That's neither what the poster wrote about when he used the term "dolts", nor was it what I was responding to. He/she didn't mention hospitalizations in the quoted text.

Ok, I'm saying it then.

Alright, that's fine. Facts are facts. *shrug*

From the CDC (BC) website:
http://www.bccdc.ca/health-info/disease ... tionreport

"By week 34, the single-dose vaccination coverage in eligible 12+ year-olds was at 84%, and 76% were fully vaccinated"

By week 34, 76% of eligible 12+ year-olds were fully vaccinated. I suppose we should see a significant drop in hospitalized cases then? Unless the vaccines have worn off? Actually, data* is showing that the vaccines only last a few months, so that explains why hospitalizations are on the rise. I'll ask again, why the vaxports, then?

Hospitalizations and deaths:
...

...

Also of interest, sources of covid spread:
...

...

From the CDC (US) website FAQ page:

How long does protection from a COVID-19 vaccine last?

We don’t know how long protection lasts for those who are vaccinated**. What we do know is that COVID-19 has caused very serious illness and death for a lot of people. If you get COVID-19, you also risk giving it to loved ones who may get very sick.

People with moderately to severely compromised immune systems should receive an additional dose of mRNA COVID-19 vaccine after the initial 2 doses.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... s/faq.html

[sarcasm] **Yeah, sure they don't know. [/sarcasm] *eyeroll*
...
Unfortunately, the CDC doesn't want to discuss how the vaccines effectiveness wanes after a few months. But here's this*...

COVID vaccine protection wanes within six months - UK researchers (Pfizer and Astra-Zeneca vaccines)
https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 021-08-25/

~