Diabetes

[Silverstarqueen]

So when they point out " a few cases", or "three horses with PPID", "a 3 day old foal"
would you like to point out where this suggests that these rare instances were caused by horses overeating or overweight?
How exactly does a 3-day old foal overeat himself into a case of diabetes? You are proving my point, diabetes in horse is not due to obesity or overeating. Many horses overeat, are overweight, are over fed, this does not cause diabetes in them, which is rare.

"The presence of marked IR and severe pancreatic β-cell dysfunction was confirmed in three PPID-affected horses using an insulin-modified frequently sampled intravenous glucose tolerance test coupled with a minimal model analysis of insulin–glucose dynamics. Normoglycemia was reestablished in each of these horses following treatment with a combination of dietary modification, metformin, glyburide (also referred to as glibenclamide), and pergolide (dopaminergic agonist).27

A few cases of bona fide DM have been reported to develop in adult horses.28,30,36–44 Specific causes for DM that have been described in horses have included chronic pancreatitis,36–38 ovarian neoplasia,39 pregnancy,30 and immune-mediated polyendocrinopathy.40 Transient DM was also identified in a 3-day-old foal that presented with diarrhea.45 In that case, type 1 DM was considered likely (hyperglycemia in the absence of hyperinsulinemia and a positive response to administered insulin), similar to neonatal DM in human babies.46 Treatment of DM in that foal using protamine zinc insulin for 26 days resulted in a successful outcome and the foal was normal at 11 months of age.45 The authors speculated that both the diarrhea and DM may have resulted from coronavirus infection, which has been identified as a cause of pancreatic damage in other species.47–50
One horse:
Extensive endocrinological testing (including determi-nations of circulating plasma insulin concentration) is infrequently reported for horses in which DM is reported. In one clinical report of DM in an adult horse, immunohistological examination of the pancreas post-mortem revealed a marked paucity of β cells at the periphery of the islets of Langerhans.28 Evidence for islet amyloidosis, as has been described as a component of DM in several other species, has not been reported in horses.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3440056/

[rustled]

So when they point out " a few cases", or "three horses with PPID", "a 3 day old foal"
would you like to point out where this suggests that these rare instances were caused by horses overeating or overweight?
How exactly does a 3-day old foal overeat himself into a case of diabetes? You are proving my point, diabetes in horse is not due to obesity or overeating. Many horses overeat, are overweight, are over fed, this does not cause diabetes in them, which is rare.

"The presence of marked IR and severe pancreatic β-cell dysfunction was confirmed in three PPID-affected horses using an insulin-modified frequently sampled intravenous glucose tolerance test coupled with a minimal model analysis of insulin–glucose dynamics. Normoglycemia was reestablished in each of these horses following treatment with a combination of dietary modification, metformin, glyburide (also referred to as glibenclamide), and pergolide (dopaminergic agonist).27

A few cases of bona fide DM have been reported to develop in adult horses.28,30,36–44 Specific causes for DM that have been described in horses have included chronic pancreatitis,36–38 ovarian neoplasia,39 pregnancy,30 and immune-mediated polyendocrinopathy.40 Transient DM was also identified in a 3-day-old foal that presented with diarrhea.45 In that case, type 1 DM was considered likely (hyperglycemia in the absence of hyperinsulinemia and a positive response to administered insulin), similar to neonatal DM in human babies.46 Treatment of DM in that foal using protamine zinc insulin for 26 days resulted in a successful outcome and the foal was normal at 11 months of age.45 The authors speculated that both the diarrhea and DM may have resulted from coronavirus infection, which has been identified as a cause of pancreatic damage in other species.47–50
One horse:
Extensive endocrinological testing (including determi-nations of circulating plasma insulin concentration) is infrequently reported for horses in which DM is reported. In one clinical report of DM in an adult horse, immunohistological examination of the pancreas post-mortem revealed a marked paucity of β cells at the periphery of the islets of Langerhans.28 Evidence for islet amyloidosis, as has been described as a component of DM in several other species, has not been reported in horses.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3440056/

Silverstarqueen, after posting "Please do some research and learn about diabetes before you make sweeping, inaccurate statements" you claimed "horses don't become diabetic".

You weren't happy with a layperson's explanation, so I provided the science which it seems to me you may have misinterpreted.

Here are a few more that may be easier to grasp. We can see some disagreement on terminology between the first and the others. It may be helpful to keep this (from the last link) in mind:

Insulin resistance (IR) is exactly like it sounds - the cells are resistant to the effects of insulin. To compensate for this, the pancreas has to put out an abnormally large amount of insulin to get the job done. If the pancreas is unable to produce enough insulin, the blood sugar rises abnormally high. At that point, insulin resistance becomes diabetes.

https://www.besthorserider.com/can-horses-get-diabetes/
https://ker.com/equinews/dietary-manage ... ic-horses/
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/insulin-r ... -in-horses
https://www.spillers-feeds.com/understa ... ellitus%20
https://thehorse.com/154301/older-horse ... -diabetes/
https://www.equisearch.com/articles/dia ... rses-21174


If, despite evidence to the contrary, you still wish to stand by your claim that "horses don't become diabetic", that is entirely your prerogative.

[Kelownamade]

You can become overweight by eating good food. Its about calories.

Sure, so 100 people become overweight, and only half or a quarter develop diabetes. Kinda shoots down your theory that it's all due to overeating and poor diet.
My horse can become overweight eating just greens out in the pasture. But horses don't become diabetic from overeating. Different genes. They have an amazing pancreas.
Human genetics has allowed humans to store fat during the months of plenty, so they can survive the lean winters, especially those in temperate zones. This is the natural course of things. So unless we want to starve ourselves every few months, it is difficult to fight nature. Those humans who did not develop this ability to store months of excess fuel(probably in the minority) didn't live long enough to evolve.
Why do women normally gain weight and store fat more easily than men? their babies were more likely to survive a period of food shortage. So there's nothing abnormal about weight gain. Our society's obsession with thinness and at the same time food, is a cultural thing, aggravated by our movement away from physial labor as a means to make a living.

My theory is the Quality of foods, nothing to do with over eating. The chemicals in preservative added foods along with refined sugars are what cause diabetes. What don't you understand about that? Yes over weight people can become over weight on good quality food. It's consuming more calories than you burn. You seem to think diabetes is random and not caused by poor decisions. Typical victim mentality. "I can't help that I am sick" etc. When a system is improperly used, it will have faults expressed and that's exactly how the human body works. Unfortunately the drug companies cannot buy yachts without deceiving the public. I would be interested in knowing what you do for work.

[Fancy]

Maybe this will help in understanding:

Very few people know that the people who are thin or eat healthy can also suffer from Diabetes. The reason is that the main indicators for diabetes risk are:

https://blog.healthians.com/why-i-got-d ... regularly/

[Silverstarqueen]

So when they point out " a few cases", or "three horses with PPID", "a 3 day old foal"
would you like to point out where this suggests that these rare instances were caused by horses overeating or overweight?
How exactly does a 3-day old foal overeat himself into a case of diabetes? You are proving my point, diabetes in horse is not due to obesity or overeating. Many horses overeat, are overweight, are over fed, this does not cause diabetes in them, which is rare.

"The presence of marked IR and severe pancreatic β-cell dysfunction was confirmed in three PPID-affected horses using an insulin-modified frequently sampled intravenous glucose tolerance test coupled with a minimal model analysis of insulin–glucose dynamics. Normoglycemia was reestablished in each of these horses following treatment with a combination of dietary modification, metformin, glyburide (also referred to as glibenclamide), and pergolide (dopaminergic agonist).27

A few cases of bona fide DM have been reported to develop in adult horses.28,30,36–44 Specific causes for DM that have been described in horses have included chronic pancreatitis,36–38 ovarian neoplasia,39 pregnancy,30 and immune-mediated polyendocrinopathy.40 Transient DM was also identified in a 3-day-old foal that presented with diarrhea.45 In that case, type 1 DM was considered likely (hyperglycemia in the absence of hyperinsulinemia and a positive response to administered insulin), similar to neonatal DM in human babies.46 Treatment of DM in that foal using protamine zinc insulin for 26 days resulted in a successful outcome and the foal was normal at 11 months of age.45 The authors speculated that both the diarrhea and DM may have resulted from coronavirus infection, which has been identified as a cause of pancreatic damage in other species.47–50
One horse:
Extensive endocrinological testing (including determi-nations of circulating plasma insulin concentration) is infrequently reported for horses in which DM is reported. In one clinical report of DM in an adult horse, immunohistological examination of the pancreas post-mortem revealed a marked paucity of β cells at the periphery of the islets of Langerhans.28 Evidence for islet amyloidosis, as has been described as a component of DM in several other species, has not been reported in horses.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3440056/

Silverstarqueen, after posting "Please do some research and learn about diabetes before you make sweeping, inaccurate statements" you claimed "horses don't become diabetic".

You weren't happy with a layperson's explanation, so I provided the science which it seems to me you may have misinterpreted.

Here are a few more that may be easier to grasp. We can see some disagreement on terminology between the first and the others. It may be helpful to keep this (from the last link) in mind:

Insulin resistance (IR) is exactly like it sounds - the cells are resistant to the effects of insulin. To compensate for this, the pancreas has to put out an abnormally large amount of insulin to get the job done. If the pancreas is unable to produce enough insulin, the blood sugar rises abnormally high. At that point, insulin resistance becomes diabetes.

https://www.besthorserider.com/can-horses-get-diabetes/
https://ker.com/equinews/dietary-manage ... ic-horses/
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/insulin-r ... -in-horses
https://www.spillers-feeds.com/understa ... ellitus%20
https://thehorse.com/154301/older-horse ... -diabetes/
https://www.equisearch.com/articles/dia ... rses-21174


If, despite evidence to the contrary, you still wish to stand by your claim that "horses don't become diabetic", that is entirely your prerogative.

The terminology is clear. Insulin resistance is not diabetes. Equine metabolic syndrome is not diabetes. Horses do not eat themselves into diabetes. Diabetes in horses is rare, and not caused by eating too much or being overweight.
Your statement "According to these experts, horses can - and do - develop a diabetic condition analogous to the diabetic condition developed by humans, and as with humans the condition is often a result of diet and obesity."
is not supported by any of the scientific references you have provided (the layperson's interpretation of Diabetes in horses implication that it is caused by overeating or overweight in horses, is innaccurate).

[rustled]

Silverstarqueen, after posting "Please do some research and learn about diabetes before you make sweeping, inaccurate statements" you claimed "horses don't become diabetic".

You weren't happy with a layperson's explanation, so I provided the science which it seems to me you may have misinterpreted.

Here are a few more that may be easier to grasp. We can see some disagreement on terminology between the first and the others. It may be helpful to keep this (from the last link) in mind:

https://www.besthorserider.com/can-horses-get-diabetes/
https://ker.com/equinews/dietary-manage ... ic-horses/
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/insulin-r ... -in-horses
https://www.spillers-feeds.com/understa ... ellitus%20
https://thehorse.com/154301/older-horse ... -diabetes/
https://www.equisearch.com/articles/dia ... rses-21174


If, despite evidence to the contrary, you still wish to stand by your claim that "horses don't become diabetic", that is entirely your prerogative.

The terminology is clear. Insulin resistance is not diabetes. Equine metabolic syndrome is not diabetes. Horses do not eat themselves into diabetes. Diabetes in horses is rare, and not caused by eating too much or being overweight.
Your statement "According to these experts, horses can - and do - develop a diabetic condition analogous to the diabetic condition developed by humans, and as with humans the condition is often a result of diet and obesity."
is not supported by any of the scientific references you have provided (the layperson's interpretation of Diabetes in horses implication that it is caused by overeating or overweight in horses, is innaccurate).

Your claim "horses don't get diabetes" is inaccurate. The experts did say some of what I've paraphrased: horses can, and do, develop a diabetic condition analogous to the diabetic condition developed by humans. However, you are correct that I shouldn't have said "a result of diet and obesity" - I ought to have said "as with humans, diabetes and/or obesity can be a result of diet".

To clarify and correct what I said earlier vis a vis this topic: The experts are saying eating the wrong diet can lead to IR, which can result in diabetes.

Your comments on "terminology" suggest you may still be misinterpreting some of what the scientific literature, "Diabetes, Insulin Resistance, and Metabolic Syndrome in Horses", was saying. Why you'd feel you need to argue with what is made clear right in the paper's title is beyond me - they are three separate terms, and one of them is indeed diabetes.

Here's a bit more from one of the less-dense pieces linked to previously:

We're familiar with diabetes in humans, but not many people know that horses can also have diabetes and blood-sugar problems. "Insulin resistance" is sometimes called "pre-Cushing's" because it was felt that insulin-resistant horses are in the early stages of Cushing's disease. You may also hear it called "equine metabolic syndrome," because there are similarities with human insulin-resistant conditions. It has only recently been recognized that horses can be insulin resistant without having a pituitary tumor (Cushing's disease).

SNIP

Insulin resistance (IR) is exactly like it sounds - the cells are resistant to the effects of insulin. To compensate for this, the pancreas has to put out an abnormally large amount of insulin to get the job done. If the pancreas is unable to produce enough insulin, the blood sugar rises abnormally high. At that point, insulin resistance becomes diabetes.

SNIP

Overfeeding a horse to the point it becomes obese can also result in insulin resistance, although not all fat horses are insulin resistant.

Interestingly, that last line suggests some of the experts tell us that overfeeding leading to IR leading to diabetes happens, too.

At any rate, it seems we can conclude from the scientific paper that dietary-induced IR leading to diabetes not as rare in horses as once thought, and veterinarians and owners should be aware of this.

[GordonH]

What exactly is diabetes... believe material or don’t.
https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/basics/diabetes.html

[Silverstarqueen]

To clarify and correct what I said earlier vis a vis this topic: The experts are saying eating the wrong diet can lead to IR, which can result in diabetes.

Your comments on "terminology" suggest you may still be misinterpreting some of what the scientific literature, "Diabetes, Insulin Resistance, and Metabolic Syndrome in Horses", was saying. Why you'd feel you need to argue with what is made clear right in the paper's title is beyond me - they are three separate terms, and one of them is indeed diabetes.

Here's a bit more from one of the less-dense pieces linked to previously:

We're familiar with diabetes in humans, but not many people know that horses can also have diabetes and blood-sugar problems. "Insulin resistance" is sometimes called "pre-Cushing's" because it was felt that insulin-resistant horses are in the early stages of Cushing's disease. You may also hear it called "equine metabolic syndrome," because there are similarities with human insulin-resistant conditions. It has only recently been recognized that horses can be insulin resistant without having a pituitary tumor (Cushing's disease).

SNIP

Insulin resistance (IR) is exactly like it sounds - the cells are resistant to the effects of insulin. To compensate for this, the pancreas has to put out an abnormally large amount of insulin to get the job done. If the pancreas is unable to produce enough insulin, the blood sugar rises abnormally high. At that point, insulin resistance becomes diabetes.

SNIP

Overfeeding a horse to the point it becomes obese can also result in insulin resistance, although not all fat horses are insulin resistant.

Interestingly, that last line suggests some of the experts tell us that overfeeding leading to IR leading to diabetes happens, too.

At any rate, it seems we can conclude from the scientific paper that dietary-induced IR leading to diabetes not as rare in horses as once thought, and veterinarians and owners should be aware of this.

From own article above:
"Can A Horse Get Diabetes? Though it is not nearly as common in equines as in humans, diabetes mellitus (type 1 or insulin dependent diabetes) is sometimes found in horses. Typical signs are weight loss, frequent urination, and excessive thirst.

What causes horse diabetes? If the pancreas is unable to produce enough insulin, the blood sugar rises abnormally high. At that point, insulin resistance becomes diabetes. It’s very important to realize that an insulin-resistant metabolism is not a disease per se. It has allowed many of the very hardy breeds to survive under harsh conditions.
.....

Is equine metabolic syndrome diabetes? The elevated blood glucose level results in hypertension (increased blood pressure) and elevated blood triglycerides (fats), among other metabolic disorders. In humans this results in the development of type II diabetes but this does not appear to happen in the horse.

So if a typical sign is weight loss, this does not sound like an overweight, overfed horse , does it?
Pancreas is unable to produce enough insulin: then how would the horse become overweight (weight gain requires insulin)? But article says in insulin resistance the pancreas puts out more insulin.
Insulin resistant metabolism is not a disease per se. It has allowed many to survive under harsh conditions? Really IR helps horses survive in harsh conditions? but.... diabetes will kill a horse within a matter of weeks.
Then it clearly states "this" human type II diabetes does not appear to happen in the horse.

[rustled]

To clarify and correct what I said earlier vis a vis this topic: The experts are saying eating the wrong diet can lead to IR, which can result in diabetes.

Your comments on "terminology" suggest you may still be misinterpreting some of what the scientific literature, "Diabetes, Insulin Resistance, and Metabolic Syndrome in Horses", was saying. Why you'd feel you need to argue with what is made clear right in the paper's title is beyond me - they are three separate terms, and one of them is indeed diabetes.

Here's a bit more from one of the less-dense pieces linked to previously:

• We're familiar with diabetes in humans, but not many people know that horses can also have diabetes and blood-sugar problems. "Insulin resistance" is sometimes called "pre-Cushing's" because it was felt that insulin-resistant horses are in the early stages of Cushing's disease. You may also hear it called "equine metabolic syndrome," because there are similarities with human insulin-resistant conditions. It has only recently been recognized that horses can be insulin resistant without having a pituitary tumor (Cushing's disease).
  
  SNIP
  
  Insulin resistance (IR) is exactly like it sounds - the cells are resistant to the effects of insulin. To compensate for this, the pancreas has to put out an abnormally large amount of insulin to get the job done. If the pancreas is unable to produce enough insulin, the blood sugar rises abnormally high. At that point, insulin resistance becomes diabetes.
  
  SNIP
  
  Overfeeding a horse to the point it becomes obese can also result in insulin resistance, although not all fat horses are insulin resistant.

Interestingly, that last line suggests some of the experts tell us that overfeeding leading to IR leading to diabetes happens, too.

At any rate, it seems we can conclude from the scientific paper that dietary-induced IR leading to diabetes not as rare in horses as once thought, and veterinarians and owners should be aware of this.

From own article above:
"Can A Horse Get Diabetes? Though it is not nearly as common in equines as in humans, diabetes mellitus (type 1 or insulin dependent diabetes) is sometimes found in horses. Typical signs are weight loss, frequent urination, and excessive thirst.

What causes horse diabetes? If the pancreas is unable to produce enough insulin, the blood sugar rises abnormally high. At that point, insulin resistance becomes diabetes. It’s very important to realize that an insulin-resistant metabolism is not a disease per se. It has allowed many of the very hardy breeds to survive under harsh conditions.
.....

Is equine metabolic syndrome diabetes? The elevated blood glucose level results in hypertension (increased blood pressure) and elevated blood triglycerides (fats), among other metabolic disorders. In humans this results in the development of type II diabetes but this does not appear to happen in the horse.

So if a typical sign is weight loss, this does not sound like an overweight, overfed horse , does it?
Pancreas is unable to produce enough insulin: then how would the horse become overweight (weight gain requires insulin)? But article says in insulin resistance the pancreas puts out more insulin.
Insulin resistant metabolism is not a disease per se. It has allowed many to survive under harsh conditions? Really IR helps horses survive in harsh conditions? but.... diabetes will kill a horse within a matter of weeks.
Then it clearly states "this" human type II diabetes does not appear to happen in the horse.

I don't really get what you hope to achieve by continuing to pursue this, Silverstarqueen. Your argument seems to be with what experts and others who have written scientific papers and these pieces for publication are saying.

Despite your claim "horses don't get diabetes", I think most of us here can clearly see from the scientific paper and other sources that yes, horses DO get diabetes - and we can also see that a horse's diet can result in the IR that leads to diabetes, and that eating a healthy diet and getting exercise can help horses avoid the IR that leads to diabetes.

There's little point arguing with what they are saying, IMO. Perhaps it would be sensible for us to leave it at that?

[rustled]

What exactly is diabetes... believe material or don’t.
https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/basics/diabetes.html

That's how I've always understood diabetes, GordonH.

[Silverstarqueen]

I'd like to know more about what exactly is meant by "reversing" type 2 diabetes. No doubt blood glucose is brought down on a restricted diet(not surprising, millions have done that, or they exercise after a meal), and medication is reduced. Is this a temporary reversal of blood sugar? what happens if they then have a day where they eat a bunch of carbs, or even a bunch of protein? is their blood sugar still under control? Or do they still have diabetes as much as ever, they have just managed the signs as long as they restrict the diet?
https://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/3 ... 2-diabetes

[rustled]

I'd like to know more about what exactly is meant by "reversing" type 2 diabetes. No doubt blood glucose is brought down on a restricted diet(not surprising, millions have done that, or they exercise after a meal), and medication is reduced. Is this a temporary reversal of blood sugar? what happens if they then have a day where they eat a bunch of carbs, or even a bunch of protein? is their blood sugar still under control? Or do they still have diabetes as much as ever, they have just managed the signs as long as they restrict the diet?
https://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/3 ... 2-diabetes

Good question. The science is here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-25667-4 if you're game to wade through the terminology. I'll ask our in-family pharmacist, who is usually very good at explaining this stuff in layman's terms, next time we chat. (I think - FWIW! - that because this is treatment to "correct" the underlying cause of type II diabetes, rather than managing the symptoms, for someone who has achieved remission/reversal of type II the occasional meal - or even day? - wouldn't be an issue. Somewhat similar to keeping histamine levels low to avoid the threshold requiring anti-histamine. I could be entirely wrong, though.)

[Silverstarqueen]

There are new (old) ways of managing and preventing diabetes being studied.Unfortunately the advice being given to many patients is not helping, as they watch their condition gradually worsen over the years, and their medication/insulin requirements increase year by year.
https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#351974

The study mentioned in previous post, with pharmacist supervised diabetics, is interesting. The main concern being, that a pharmacist would be advising more or less medication/insulin, so who would be responsible if a diabetic goes into hypoglycemia? Seems like that situation needs to be monitored by a physician. 800 calorie per day diet is not that easy to maintain for longer than a week or two. Try it sometime.

[GordonH]

I'd like to know more about what exactly is meant by "reversing" type 2 diabetes. No doubt blood glucose is brought down on a restricted diet(not surprising, millions have done that, or they exercise after a meal), and medication is reduced. Is this a temporary reversal of blood sugar? what happens if they then have a day where they eat a bunch of carbs, or even a bunch of protein? is their blood sugar still under control? Or do they still have diabetes as much as ever, they have just managed the signs as long as they restrict the diet?
https://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/3 ... 2-diabetes

As long as your body is producing insulin (vast majority of type 2 do just not enough, so medication is used to level the playing field)
By building muscle and losing fat (big one is Visceral Fat) the body doesn’t need as much insulin to deal with glucose.

Do with this as you want SSQ.

[Silverstarqueen]

If it were that simple, it would be simple. Yet hypoglycemia does occur in diabetics (including type 2).
" These real-life data showed a rate of severe hypoglycemia of 3.9/100 patient-years in sulfonylurea-treated patients from specialized diabetes centers. Higher risk was associated with known risk factors including lack of diabetes education, older age and decreased eGFR but also with lower BMI and lower triglyceride levels, suggesting that sulfonylurea treatment in those patients should be considered with caution."
i'm just not sure that pharmacist is the person to be treating this.