This is on you Jason Kenney...

User avatar
fluffy
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 23874
Joined: Jun 1st, 2006, 5:42 pm

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by fluffy »

daria wrote: Oct 4th, 2021, 5:23 pmPublic health should be stressing that people also focus on getting healthy and not just taking a vaccine, because plenty of double vaxxed people are dying with COVID, too. I don't think that people should wrap themselves in the vaccine like a security blanket and blissfully go on leading unhealthy lives, especially if it can be avoided.
A COVID vaccine shot reaches full efficacy in two weeks. While a healthy lifestyle is important, it is not something that can be accomplished in a relatively short time frame.

As far as "plenty of double vaxxed people dying", yes there are breakthrough infections, but what you need to do is compare the number of unvaxxed infections and cases against the number of vaxxed infection and cases. Those numbers should give you a pretty big clue as to the importance of vaccinations.
Never miss a good chance to shut up.
User avatar
daria
Guru
Posts: 7388
Joined: Mar 29th, 2010, 4:26 pm

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by daria »

fluffy wrote: Oct 4th, 2021, 7:17 pm
daria wrote: Oct 4th, 2021, 5:23 pmPublic health should be stressing that people also focus on getting healthy and not just taking a vaccine, because plenty of double vaxxed people are dying with COVID, too. I don't think that people should wrap themselves in the vaccine like a security blanket and blissfully go on leading unhealthy lives, especially if it can be avoided.
A COVID vaccine shot reaches full efficacy in two weeks. While a healthy lifestyle is important, it is not something that can be accomplished in a relatively short time frame.

As far as "plenty of double vaxxed people dying", yes there are breakthrough infections, but what you need to do is compare the number of unvaxxed infections and cases against the number of vaxxed infection and cases. Those numbers should give you a pretty big clue as to the importance of vaccinations.
We have had 18+ months for people to work on themselves. :D In fact, people had several months prior to vaccines being available to start taking care of their health.

Unvaxxed with infections and cases are different from deaths and hospitalizations. The vast majority of cases don't require hospitalization.
Don't take my silence to mean I've agreed with you; I easily could've just lost interest in explaining how wrong you are.
History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.
User avatar
fluffy
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 23874
Joined: Jun 1st, 2006, 5:42 pm

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by fluffy »

daria wrote: Oct 4th, 2021, 7:20 pmUnvaxxed with infections and cases are different from deaths and hospitalizations. The vast majority of cases don't require hospitalization.
Exactly, and the vaccines are proven to improve on that vast majority. The real aim is to reduce hospitalizations and deaths, which at this point in time are mostly unvaxxed by far.

The more people that get vaccinated, the batter the chances are for everyone.

Kenney missed the boat on that one too.
Never miss a good chance to shut up.
User avatar
gardengirl
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 13599
Joined: Mar 23rd, 2006, 1:01 pm

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by gardengirl »

daria wrote: Oct 4th, 2021, 4:27 pm
gardengirl wrote: Oct 4th, 2021, 9:56 am

I don't think it is transparent at all. If you were to remove the care home deaths, the chart would look very different. Obviously people in care homes have a medical issues, that is why they are there. They could also have multiple issues (as indicated on the chart) so the same person could appear several times on the chart.

If you take care homes out of the equation, the chart would look very different.
Nonsense. Co-morbidities are there across the board for people who die with COVID, regardless of whether they die in a long-term care facility or in hospital.
So you know how this list was made up?
If a person has more than one condition, do they appear on the list more than once?
What I am saying is that the people who have died in care homes could have had more than one condition. This would skew the numbers as they would appear on the list more than once. This would make the list longer than it actually is.

You would need a much more complex breakdown to make this representative of the actual numbers.
Break it down to age groups, those with single or multiple conditions, detail of those specific conditions such as end stage renal failure.
Life is a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death.
User avatar
gardengirl
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 13599
Joined: Mar 23rd, 2006, 1:01 pm

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by gardengirl »

hobbyguy wrote: Oct 4th, 2021, 10:15 am
fluffy wrote: Oct 4th, 2021, 9:14 am

Maybe the point is that if murder victims had pre-existing medical conditions then the murderers should get a reduced sentence.
Listing things like hypertension in a public transparency on covid is a tactic. It is designed to support Kenney's political positions.

There are two statistical measures used to count hypertension. One uses BP 140, and the other BP 130. Which one did Kenney's folks use? The 130 number will be much higher. According to StatsCan 40% of males and 30% of females aged 20-79 in Canada had hypertension using the BP 130 stat. Hypertension has effective treatments. IF your BP is under control using meds, are you hypertensive? Yes, according to stats. So an otherwise healthy person, who has their BP controlled by meds to below the threshold (and therefore no longer actually hypertensive) is still counted as hypertensive. So a person who is otherwise healthy, and has a BP of 125 but takes meds to get there, is counted as hypertensive - even though they do not currently have hypertension.

The complexities of these things make the stats useless.

Renal diseases is another "broad sweeper". If you have incidences of kidney stones - is that included? Not clear - but in almost all cases kidney stones, while very painful, are not life threatening. COVID is a respiratory disease - so what does Renal disease have to do with it? Severe renal disease might indeed make you less able to withstand COVID, but how many of the folks had severe Renal disease? It gets really fuzzy.

And so on. It is uselessly over simplified and uninterpretable information - and very easily misinterpreted by the public.

The obvious intent is to support the position that Kenney took downplaying the severity and seriousness of COVID and therefore the need for collective action(s).
Thank you. I was trying to find a way to explain exactly this. There is not enough information here to show anything.
Life is a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death.
User avatar
GordonH
Grumpy Old Bleep
Posts: 32536
Joined: Oct 4th, 2008, 7:21 pm

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by GordonH »

It appears trumps approach to covid didn’t work in the US as Kenney is learning doesn’t work in Alberta either.


Everyone would really like it if this virus would crawl back into that test tube in Wuhan Lab, reality check that’s not going to happen.
I don't give a damn whether people/posters like me or dislike me, I'm not on earth to win any popularity contests.
birdsarentreal.com
User avatar
daria
Guru
Posts: 7388
Joined: Mar 29th, 2010, 4:26 pm

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by daria »

gardengirl wrote: Oct 4th, 2021, 8:40 pm
daria wrote: Oct 4th, 2021, 4:27 pm

Nonsense. Co-morbidities are there across the board for people who die with COVID, regardless of whether they die in a long-term care facility or in hospital.
So you know how this list was made up?
If a person has more than one condition, do they appear on the list more than once?
What I am saying is that the people who have died in care homes could have had more than one condition. This would skew the numbers as they would appear on the list more than once. This would make the list longer than it actually is.

You would need a much more complex breakdown to make this representative of the actual numbers.
Break it down to age groups, those with single or multiple conditions, detail of those specific conditions such as end stage renal failure.
No, I don't know how this list was made up (and yes it does have the disclaimer that a person could have more than one condition--hence, the term co-morbidity), but neither do you, so your statement that removing people who died in care homes would change it dramatically doesn't hold water. In fact, I'd be willing to bet, based on this (https://hqca.ca/surveys/overweight-obesity/) that the list wouldn't change all that much, because of the strong correlation of obesity with hospitalizations and deaths with COVID.
Overweight & Obesity in Adult Albertans

This report provides an in-depth analysis of the prevalence, burden, and rates of use of a number of key healthcare services for overweight and obese individuals. The report also provides a rationale for the role of primary healthcare in weight management for adult Albertans living with overweight and obesity.

In 2014, the HQCA conducted a survey of adult Albertans about their use and satisfaction with healthcare services. As part of this survey, self-reported height and weight were collected from individuals in order to calculate their body mass index. According to these findings, nearly six out of 10 Albertans over the age of 18 were either overweight or obese. The estimated provincial prevalence of adults with overweight and obesity was 35.2 per cent and 23.9 per cent, respectively. In addition, obesity was associated with an increased risk of multiple comorbidities, greater use of healthcare system services, and a lower self-rated individual quality of life.

Managing overweight and obese populations, as well as comorbid conditions, falls predominantly on primary healthcare providers. Evidence shows that diverse strategies for the management of overweight and obesity within primary healthcare are associated with benefits in weight management; however, the most effective mix of providers, interventions, and duration requires further evaluation. Moving forward, Alberta may benefit from working towards a more unified strategy for weight management that includes opportunities to engage Albertans in discussions about weight management, and to increase the use of team-based care across all weight categories.
I did see a break down on CBC of the ages of people who have been hospitalized in Alberta, but whereas the majority of the break down is from 30-39, 40-49, 50-59, 60-69, 70-79 and then 80+, they stupidly group 12-29 year olds together. That grouping is useless, whereas 12-19 and 20-29 would show what is actually happening amongst high school students.
Don't take my silence to mean I've agreed with you; I easily could've just lost interest in explaining how wrong you are.
History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.
User avatar
fluffy
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 23874
Joined: Jun 1st, 2006, 5:42 pm

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by fluffy »

I'm still not getting the importance of pre-existing health conditions in assessing Jason Kenney's pandemic repsonse. I sense a suggestion that because someone's health was "fragile" to begin with that the provincial government somehow owed them a reduced quality of care, or that by portraying people's health challenges as self-inflicted government therefore is absolved from responsibility.

There can be little disputing that some pre-existing health conditions increase an individual's vulnerability to the virus, but this is true all across Canada, and in vaxxed and unvaxxed people alike. That being said, it has no bearing when comparing Alberta's infection/hospitalization rates to the rest of the country. Alberta's current predicament is the fault of Albertans, and their leadership (or lack thereof).
Never miss a good chance to shut up.
User avatar
Glacier
Admiral HMS Castanet
Posts: 34966
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 10:41 pm

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by Glacier »

fluffy wrote: Oct 5th, 2021, 5:51 am I'm still not getting the importance of pre-existing health conditions in assessing Jason Kenney's pandemic repsonse. I sense a suggestion that because someone's health was "fragile" to begin with that the provincial government somehow owed them a reduced quality of care, or that by portraying people's health challenges as self-inflicted government therefore is absolved from responsibility.

There can be little disputing that some pre-existing health conditions increase an individual's vulnerability to the virus, but this is true all across Canada, and in vaxxed and unvaxxed people alike. That being said, it has no bearing when comparing Alberta's infection/hospitalization rates to the rest of the country. Alberta's current predicament is the fault of Albertans, and their leadership (or lack thereof).
I have a friend in Norway, and their response is basically the same as Alberta's was, but without all the deaths. The major differences is that they're skinny and they do saunas and such which are supposed to keep you healthy.
"No one has the right to apologize for something they did not do, and no one has the right to accept an apology if the wrong was not done to them."
- Douglas Murray
hobbyguy
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 13504
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011, 8:10 pm

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by hobbyguy »

fluffy wrote: Oct 5th, 2021, 5:51 am I'm still not getting the importance of pre-existing health conditions in assessing Jason Kenney's pandemic repsonse. I sense a suggestion that because someone's health was "fragile" to begin with that the provincial government somehow owed them a reduced quality of care, or that by portraying people's health challenges as self-inflicted government therefore is absolved from responsibility.

There can be little disputing that some pre-existing health conditions increase an individual's vulnerability to the virus, but this is true all across Canada, and in vaxxed and unvaxxed people alike. That being said, it has no bearing when comparing Alberta's infection/hospitalization rates to the rest of the country. Alberta's current predicament is the fault of Albertans, and their leadership (or lack thereof).
It is entirely clear that vaccination uptake is the key, and all the rest is distraction. Roughly 80-90% of covid hospitalizations are currently among the unvaccinated. All the rest is distraction nonsense that splits hairs - sometimes for political purposes.

The comorbidity factors are relevant only to the fraction that are vaccinated, and yes - many of the breakthrough infections among the vaccinated will be among older folks and folks with other conditions who naturally have weaker immune systems. Mordbidity is only one aspect of the covid situation.

The covid "long haulers" is an another effect that we are just starting to get a handle on. That aspect also has large ramifications for our health care systems, and as a chronic or semi-chronic issue, one that the health care system will struggle with. As many as 1 in 4 who get severe covid become "long haulers". A substantial portion of those "long haulers" were otherwise healthy prior to covid. The numbers on that are still fuzzy but proper examination of "long haulers" is starting to get organized. https://directorsblog.nih.gov/tag/long-haulers/ Once again, vaccination status is a determining factor based on preliminary (and admittedly fuzzy) data.

Kenney's big mistake was trying to kowtow to folks who did not wish to get vaccinated for political purposes. Kenney is continuing to do so. It is not surprising as politically the UCP has a heavy bias against collective responsibilities and actions - and Kenney himself has always exhibited some of that same bias.
The middle path - everything in moderation, and everything in its time and order.
SensibleOne
Fledgling
Posts: 313
Joined: Jan 31st, 2019, 9:09 am

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by SensibleOne »

Why did Alberta accept covid patients from BC when their hospitals are overwhelmed?
WESTman
Grand Pooh-bah
Posts: 2135
Joined: Aug 7th, 2006, 11:29 pm

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by WESTman »

There is no Covid crisis in Alberta and there never was, this is a media hatchet job on Kenney and Alberta because the powers that be know they are the most resistant to The Great Reset and Covid restrictions. Unfortunately Kenney folded under the pressure when he should have taken a stand like the Governors in Florida and Texas against passports and mandates, better to go down swinging.

"When the whole world is running towards a cliff, he who is running in the opposite direction appears to have lost his mind".
~C. S. Lewis
User avatar
fluffy
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 23874
Joined: Jun 1st, 2006, 5:42 pm

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by fluffy »

SensibleOne wrote: Oct 5th, 2021, 10:22 am Why did Alberta accept covid patients from BC when their hospitals are overwhelmed?
I hadn't heard that, and when I search all that comes up is BC refusing to take patients from Alberta. Can you link to the story ?
Never miss a good chance to shut up.
SensibleOne
Fledgling
Posts: 313
Joined: Jan 31st, 2019, 9:09 am

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by SensibleOne »

fluffy wrote: Oct 5th, 2021, 12:15 pm
SensibleOne wrote: Oct 5th, 2021, 10:22 am Why did Alberta accept covid patients from BC when their hospitals are overwhelmed?
I hadn't heard that, and when I search all that comes up is BC refusing to take patients from Alberta. Can you link to the story ?
I know!! I had to go back and check dates as I thought maybe this person was transferred before Alberta was overwhelmed, but nope it was after. And no I cannot link the story as it is real life, factual information.
outtawind
Fledgling
Posts: 121
Joined: Jul 17th, 2017, 8:17 am

Re: This is on you Jason Kenney...

Post by outtawind »

WESTman wrote: Oct 5th, 2021, 12:05 pm There is no Covid crisis in Alberta and there never was, this is a media hatchet job on Kenney and Alberta because the powers that be know they are the most resistant to The Great Reset and Covid restrictions...
False. You misunderstand reality. Sure, there are websites producing content which will support the view you paint - but they are, simply put, not based on real facts and reality.

Covid is, unfortunately, not 'fake'. This has nothing to do with "the media". It is a virus and only science and mathematics (viral mutation rates and population infection cycles) are in control now. Not governors, not 'the media', not the 'left' or the 'right'.

Science and math, that's it.

Return to “Canada”