Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

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nucksRnum1
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Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

Post by nucksRnum1 »

Had a conversation with an indigenous friend the other day. We were talking about the residential school victims in their mass graves. And how odd it is that people shrug off this tragedy of kids that were killed by these religious organizations. Many times in a callus and vindictive way. People saying that identifying the graves and the issue is from too long ago. Or that people want proof of who is in these scans and if they are children. Generally being flippant.

Then I remembered some shows I have enjoyed in the past. Shows like "finding your roots" or "who do you think you are" or others. And in these shows, there have been many famous people who had Jewish ancestors. Many had families directly affected by the evil that the Jews went through in ww2. Those people fled and are lucky to live in a land of freedom and raise a family that is free. Some of those famous people on shows went across the world to see memorials of the massacred in mass graves. Laid flowers at a site or a rock on a tombstone. Mourned and cried for their relatives. The fact that the atrocities were ended is celebrated. And those that lost their lives are celebrated and recognized and loved. And those that made it through the evil are cherished. There is a "lest we forget" attitude when it comes to the Jewish victims and families.

Meanwhile, there is evidence of indigenous children mass graves across the country from residential schools - and people don't seem to have the same visceral emotional response to the evil perpetrated on these indigenous victims across the world. At least not like there is for the Jewish victims. And my question is why there isn't the same repugnance in regards to the historical evil right here at home in our communities? And then I was wondering what that says about those of us that can have remorse for a culture and people we have no connection to - while ignoring the one that we live beside and around every day. Why do we trivialize their pain? Why do we scoff at their sorrow? Why doesn't society empathize with those around us? Who needs us?

It shouldn't matter that the holocaust was millions of victims - as opposed to thousands of indigenous victims. Wrong should be wrong. And right should be right. And this examination shouldn't be labelled anti-semitism. Because the question doesn't come from hate. The question is simply asking why there isn't more love and support for indigenous kids who were starved, beaten or exploited to death?

And for those of you who support the examination of this issue - kudos. I know many people are putting their money where their mouth is - and volunteering or being proactive. Which is awesome. I hope more people in our country come together in regards to these graves. That we are mindful of them. That we pause and think about them. And make sure it never happens again. The same reverence as those memorials of a group of people across the globe get. That would be an inspiration.
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Re: Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

Post by Hmmm »

From what I can tell many people are deeply concerned and horrified about the graves and what happened to these children. Many, many people. I'm sorry but how does he not realize this? I would agree that also many don't care much beyond saying thats too bad... these same people dont care about anything though that doesn't affect them personally. It could be more than 50% of people dont really care about anyone outside their immediate bubble. is that true of your friend? This is is personal to him now, but prior to this how much concern was there for many other horrors that are going on and have gone on to other communities that didnt affect him?

But the bottom line is, caring people, which there are many do in fact care about this horror. And all decent honest people have left or should leave the Catholic church!! REALLY what are you waiting for...its pure evil. I guess the ones who dont, are the same ones who really dont care. And if any want to know about true crimes against humanity that are going on right now... feel free to ask if you already dont know..
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Re: Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

Post by AtlantisKelowna »

The only major problem with this issue is people like yourself continuing the narrative that ALL of these children were murdered based on speculation and ground-penetrating radar. Yes, these children were treated very poorly and did not deserve it one bit but to claim murder without any evidence to back those claims seems more like a conspiracy.

I have living family who attended one of these schools in question. Now it is true that they were not treated as they should have been and what the government chose to do was completely wrong but you need to remember that corporal punishment was used on ALL children in Canada with the strap only being removed in the '70s. Im not debating that the FN's didn't get the worst of it because they truly did but corporal punishment in schools was only outlawed in 2004. It is still legal in many US states to this day. Most children of every race who grew up pre-1980 were disciplined by force, many of those excessively. That was the standard to raising respectful children of any race, keep them in line which generally meant being hit with something.

My family tells a story of unfair harshness in punishment but also massive illnesses that wiped out many of their friends. They would sit out at the grave markers of their friends in the same field claimed to be a mass unmarked grave now because the markers were all removed at some point. In addition, having their band being very adamant NOT to tell their stories publicly because it could cause problems. What those "problems" were, they would not elaborate on. Why? I could speculate but id rather stick to the facts.

I don't feel it is very appropriate to speculate on these issues without a REAL investigation which includes the same process every other "murder" investigation would consist of. For many fighting against the proper investigation basing it on disturbing graves or whatever they claim but want to stand firmly in their belief and have the world believe a story without factual evidence is why people are not giving it the attention deserved. I wouldn't doubt that some were indeed murdered by excessive punishment but until the evidence has proven so it's anyone's best guess.

You could also look at the Liberals being in power for 70% of the 20th century and ask why they did nothing to stop it? :biggrin:
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Re: Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

Post by coffeeFreak »

AtlantisKelowna wrote: Oct 15th, 2021, 10:59 am The only major problem with this issue is people like yourself continuing the narrative that ALL of these children were murdered based on speculation and ground-penetrating radar. Yes, these children were treated very poorly and did not deserve it one bit but to claim murder without any evidence to back those claims seems more like a conspiracy.

I have living family who attended one of these schools in question. Now it is true that they were not treated as they should have been and what the government chose to do was completely wrong but you need to remember that corporal punishment was used on ALL children in Canada with the strap only being removed in the '70s. Im not debating that the FN's didn't get the worst of it because they truly did but corporal punishment in schools was only outlawed in 2004. It is still legal in many US states to this day. Most children of every race who grew up pre-1980 were disciplined by force, many of those excessively. That was the standard to raising respectful children of any race, keep them in line which generally meant being hit with something.

My family tells a story of unfair harshness in punishment but also massive illnesses that wiped out many of their friends. They would sit out at the grave markers of their friends in the same field claimed to be a mass unmarked grave now because the markers were all removed at some point. In addition, having their band being very adamant NOT to tell their stories publicly because it could cause problems. What those "problems" were, they would not elaborate on. Why? I could speculate but id rather stick to the facts.

I don't feel it is very appropriate to speculate on these issues without a REAL investigation which includes the same process every other "murder" investigation would consist of. For many fighting against the proper investigation basing it on disturbing graves or whatever they claim but want to stand firmly in their belief and have the world believe a story without factual evidence is why people are not giving it the attention deserved. I wouldn't doubt that some were indeed murdered by excessive punishment but until the evidence has proven so it's anyone's best guess.

You could also look at the Liberals being in power for 70% of the 20th century and ask why they did nothing to stop it? :biggrin:

Regardless of the reasons why these children died (murder, abuse, medical experimentation, accidents, neglect, starvation, untreated illness, suicide etc), there should NEVER EVER be bodies hidden/buried in school grounds!! AND all parents and families have a right to be notified of their children's deaths AND entitled to take their children's bodies home and bury them!

First Nations people have a right to receive answers, such as WHY did it take so long to "discover" the children in spite of years of them reporting this (no one believed them), AND why oh why has there not been a criminal investigation called!! The "truth" needs to be brought to light or all that is left to do is to speculate.

But then again, it doesn't take much brain matter to figure out that the "powers that be" do not want to seriously look at this, given the list of complicit participants running those genocidal institutions: the Government, the RCMP, the Catholic and Protestant churches, as well as the Medical Community.

Not only did doctors not protect the children who were sick from various illness or alert anyone to the malnutrition that was occurring, they also performed medical experiments on some of these kids (reminiscent of the Nazis). Here is a link to an article that discusses "highly unethical nutrition experiments performed on Canadian Aboriginal children at six residential schools between 1942 and 1952 (2) – our own medical atrocities. on these "research"."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3941673/
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Re: Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

Post by AtlantisKelowna »

coffeeFreak wrote: Oct 15th, 2021, 12:05 pm

Regardless of the reasons why these children died (murder, abuse, medical experimentation, accidents, neglect, starvation, untreated illness, suicide etc), there should NEVER EVER be bodies hidden/buried in school grounds!! AND all parents and families have a right to be notified of their children's deaths AND entitled to take their children's bodies home and bury them!

First Nations people have a right to receive answers, such as WHY did it take so long to "discover" the children in spite of years of them reporting this (no one believed them), AND why oh why has there not been a criminal investigation called!! The "truth" needs to be brought to light or all that is left to do is to speculate.

But then again, it doesn't take much brain matter to figure out that the "powers that be" do not want to seriously look at this, given the list of complicit participants running those genocidal institutions: the Government, the RCMP, the Catholic and Protestant churches, as well as the Medical Community.

Not only did doctors not protect the children who were sick from various illness or alert anyone to the malnutrition that was occurring, they also performed medical experiments on some of these kids (reminiscent of the Nazis). Here is a link to an article that discusses "highly unethical nutrition experiments performed on Canadian Aboriginal children at six residential schools between 1942 and 1952 (2) – our own medical atrocities. on these "research"."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3941673/
I agree with you 100%

My only issue is people claiming facts without a proper investigation. Like I said, I've heard stories many probably never will from living survivors and I've seen the dramatic effects it has left on many of them. I would like nothing more than the truth but until then the media and many others need to stop spreading misinformation, stick to the real facts, and have journalists quit using this as a way to boost their career!
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Re: Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

Post by bb49 »

AtlantisKelowna wrote: Oct 15th, 2021, 10:59 am The only major problem with this issue is people like yourself continuing the narrative that ALL of these children were murdered based on speculation and ground-penetrating radar. Yes, these children were treated very poorly and did not deserve it one bit but to claim murder without any evidence to back those claims seems more like a conspiracy.

...but you need to remember that corporal punishment was used on ALL children in Canada with the strap only being removed in the '70s. Im not debating that the FN's didn't get the worst of it because they truly did but corporal punishment in schools was only outlawed in 2004. It is still legal in many US states to this day. Most children of every race who grew up pre-1980 were disciplined by force, many of those excessively. That was the standard to raising respectful children of any race, keep them in line which generally meant being hit with something.
Overall a good post by the OP, but I'm leaning a bit towards the above comments by Atlantis.
From what I've read, many of these children died of diseases or possibly poor diet.

No doubt some were physically abused and died due to that, but overall I really don't believe comparing it to the Holocaust is right.
The Holocaust was the intentional killings of millions. Was that the intention of our governments and the associated churches? Absolutely not.

And I too am horrified by these findings as I'm sure most people are.

I do hope there will be a non-political investigation into this.
We need results from it. We don't need finger pointing unless it's at actual guilty parties.
We don't need shaming of white people or shaming of current governments and religions unless there is evidence direct guilt.

And I do hope that no groups attempt to politicize this, though I'm sure some will.
February 14, 2022. The day Democracy died in Canada.
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Re: Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

Post by nucksRnum1 »

bb49 wrote: Oct 15th, 2021, 1:00 pmThe Holocaust was the intentional killings of millions. Was that the intention of our governments and the associated churches? Absolutely not.
This statement sticks out for me. I do believe that this was a religious and political scar on Canada. The reason is that churches up until the 70s had hundreds of years of politicians and influence on policies in Canada. So I believe (my opinion) that there was indeed an effort to get rid of the indigenous problem in Canada.

I also believe that the comment about simply labelling starving children was simply "malnutrition". No one sees any evidence that staff were "malnourished" that ran these places. It was just the children that were starved. And the lack of food is documented already.

Another fact that reinforces the fact that indigenous were treated savagely is documented in every major colonist realm during the same time. Africa, India, Australia, New Zealand and many others. These "schools" were set up all around most of these countries. So it wasn't just Canada. And it was religious and political. Those in power let these atrocities happen.
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Re: Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

Post by Glacier »

According the Jean Chretien (who ended the residential schools in Canada), the main purpose was the educate FN.

Either way, it was not a good way to do it since FN should have a right to not send their kids to school, especially when they were going to be subject to abuse such as being strapped for speaking their native language. The government was extremely neglectful by not providing any money or resources to send dead bodies home when the kids died of TB. The schools buried the bodies because, well, what would you do in that situation, dump them in the Thompson River?
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Re: Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

Post by two_shoes1mit »

Until it is proven, I have difficulty drawing a parallel between the holocaust and graves at residential schools. I think from the differing opinions of first nation leaders from across the country, we can eliminate the statement of, "mass child graves." That statement in itself conjures up horrendous images. If it should prove to be true that there truly are mass graves, then lets process that information at that time.
We cannot judge yesterdays by todays standards. Its already been pointed out the many atrocities across the globe. I am not catholic, but for the life of me I can't understand how the 'faithful' can continue to support an institution that has such a sordid history of their treatment of children in residential schools. Bring it forward to today and this institution continues to abuse and sexually molest vulnerable children across the globe. How do you rationalize this?
The government of Canada of past, also has blood on its hands. I believe it was their intention to wipe out a culture completely. If they knew then, what we know now............how that whole process crippled a culture right down to the basic elements of child rearing, I can only imagine they would have made other decisions. But perhaps I put too much faith in them. I recently read a historical account of how the cattle and horse industry came to be in the middle 1800's. It was facinating how the indigineous culture and the european culture joined efforts, learning skills from each other, promoting an emerging industry. There appeared to me no traces of racism, but rather an admiration of joined skills. I wondered at that point - when did racism rear its ugly head? After some time, the american and european settlers inter-married, built homesteads and started raising families.............life seemed good. But then British settlers came after the hard work was done. They came with their money, social status, etc. The shaming started................and the rest is history.
Its a sad history for sure.
It is not my intention to dismiss the atrocities of the indigineous people, yet, consider the horrible treatment of cultures of people throughout history - the jews, the slaves, etc. Where does it end? Is it feasible for every group to hold todays society to account for yesterday's actions?
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Re: Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

Post by nucksRnum1 »

Should a wife simply forget that a husband cheated because it is in the past and everyone else around the world and throughout history has done it?
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Re: Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

Post by two_shoes1mit »

nucksRnum1 wrote: Nov 7th, 2021, 4:30 pm Should a wife simply forget that a husband cheated because it is in the past and everyone else around the world and throughout history has done it?
Depends if the wife wants to get on with her life, or stay stuck.
But the history we are speaking of here happened decades ago.
Imagine if the Black slaves traced their lineage, how far back can you go?
Imagine if the survivors of the holocaust still held governments accountable for
the loss of brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, children, uncles, aunts and grandparents.
Where will it end?
I am not minimizing what happened at all, but continually throwing money at this will not
fix it. It is time to move on, claim your heritage and make a better life for yourself and family today.
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Re: Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

Post by nucksRnum1 »

two_shoes1mit wrote: Nov 7th, 2021, 5:26 pmDepends if the wife wants to get on with her life, or stay stuck.
But the history we are speaking of here happened decades ago.
Imagine if the Black slaves traced their lineage, how far back can you go?
Imagine if the survivors of the holocaust still held governments accountable for
the loss of brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, children, uncles, aunts and grandparents.
Where will it end?
I am not minimizing what happened at all, but continually throwing money at this will not
fix it. It is time to move on, claim your heritage and make a better life for yourself and family today.
It doesn't matter that these things happened a long time ago. What does matter - is that they are in conversation today and are being faced and dealt with. Unfortunately, that won't stop the excuses.
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Re: Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

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If a husband cheats, one shouldn't punish his children for it though.
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Re: Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

Post by nucksRnum1 »

Glacier wrote: Nov 7th, 2021, 8:52 pm If a husband cheats, one shouldn't punish his children for it though.
Perhaps the mistress has a baby. And like Jon Snow - there was a lasting consequence. The shudda wudda coulda doesnt matter.
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Re: Holocaust vs Mass child graves at residential schools

Post by TheLiteralKingofEngland »

AtlantisKelowna wrote: Oct 15th, 2021, 10:59 am The only major problem with this issue is people like yourself continuing the narrative that ALL of these children were murdered based on speculation and ground-penetrating radar. Yes, these children were treated very poorly and did not deserve it one bit but to claim murder without any evidence to back those claims seems more like a conspiracy.

I have living family who attended one of these schools in question. Now it is true that they were not treated as they should have been and what the government chose to do was completely wrong but you need to remember that corporal punishment was used on ALL children in Canada with the strap only being removed in the '70s. Im not debating that the FN's didn't get the worst of it because they truly did but corporal punishment in schools was only outlawed in 2004. It is still legal in many US states to this day. Most children of every race who grew up pre-1980 were disciplined by force, many of those excessively. That was the standard to raising respectful children of any race, keep them in line which generally meant being hit with something.

My family tells a story of unfair harshness in punishment but also massive illnesses that wiped out many of their friends. They would sit out at the grave markers of their friends in the same field claimed to be a mass unmarked grave now because the markers were all removed at some point. In addition, having their band being very adamant NOT to tell their stories publicly because it could cause problems. What those "problems" were, they would not elaborate on. Why? I could speculate but id rather stick to the facts.

I don't feel it is very appropriate to speculate on these issues without a REAL investigation which includes the same process every other "murder" investigation would consist of. For many fighting against the proper investigation basing it on disturbing graves or whatever they claim but want to stand firmly in their belief and have the world believe a story without factual evidence is why people are not giving it the attention deserved. I wouldn't doubt that some were indeed murdered by excessive punishment but until the evidence has proven so it's anyone's best guess.

You could also look at the Liberals being in power for 70% of the 20th century and ask why they did nothing to stop it? :biggrin:
The kids endured malnutrition and extremely poor living conditions which substantially contributed to deaths. I don't know if murder is the right word, but intentional neglect? It's kind of like dumping a plant in some unhospitable environment and neglecting to provide it with food or water and then it obviously dies.
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