The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

bob vernon
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The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

Post by bob vernon »

No date set yet, but likely in 2022. He can't just show up and offer his thoughts and prayers and apologies. Real action must include a housecleaning of the church and the abusers that it has hidden. And a lot of compensation. A lot. Money will be the stumbling block and it might be the deal-breaker.

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Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

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Hip... hip hooray the poop is coming.
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bb49
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Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

Post by bb49 »

bob vernon wrote: Oct 27th, 2021, 6:06 pm No date set yet, but likely in 2022. He can't just show up and offer his thoughts and prayers and apologies. Real action must include a housecleaning of the church and the abusers that it has hidden. And a lot of compensation. A lot. Money will be the stumbling block and it might be the deal-breaker.
We can only hope that Justin doesn't promise to match the pope's contributions.
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Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

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You often hear alter-boys saying that.
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Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

Post by blueliner »

Who really cares , will be all smoke and mirrors with Justin Trudeau leading the parade
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Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

Post by Mark5 »

I would like to know why the Catholic church is being held responsible when it is individuals that were actually responsible. Why are these people not being found and identified and prosecuted for these alleged crimes against humanity? Some of them must still be alive and if not, we should still know who they were. It is like they do not exist. How was the Catholic church, based in Rome, supposed to know about all of this back then? They are not organized like the military. With the Nuremberg trials, individuals were identified, tried and executed. When teachers are caught abusing their students, is the school board held responsible or is it the individual who actually committed the act? Does the Pope know who these people are? Was the pope in the day aware? I guess if they get an apology from the Pope then that opens the door for lawsuits and monetary awards. We should know who these individuals are before any more actions are taken.
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Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

Post by Glacier »

Mark5 wrote: Oct 27th, 2021, 9:58 pm I would like to know why the Catholic church is being held responsible when it is individuals that were actually responsible. Why are these people not being found and identified and prosecuted for these alleged crimes against humanity?
Check out Jordan Peterson's interview with Michael Shellenberger for a full explanation. The reason why no one wants to hold the individuals to account is that the modern left doesn't offer specific solutions, whether climate change or anything else. Instead, it's very collective and high level, and extremely vague. This is by design, and is meant to keep the grievances alive by not solving the problems or holding anyone directly responsible.
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Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

Post by techrtr »

The spokespeople are already saying they want everything the church took away - language, culture etc etc restored by the church. I imagine that in the end, a suitable substitute for that unattainable goal will be money, money, and more money.

The fact is, Indigenous cultures in North America changed forever the second Europeans set foot here over 500 years ago. By the time the Residential Schools were built, traditional pre-contact indigenous culture did not exist anymore. So, to say that the residential schools destroyed Indigenous cultures is ridiculous.

If Indigenous leaders want kids to learn traditional languages and culture, they should set up schools and take responsibility for running them.
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Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

Post by Bsuds »

techrtr wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 7:08 am
If Indigenous leaders want kids to learn traditional languages and culture, they should set up schools and take responsibility for running them.
And pay for it themselves.
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Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

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Mark5 wrote: Oct 27th, 2021, 9:58 pm I would like to know why the Catholic church is being held responsible when it is individuals that were actually responsible. Why are these people not being found and identified and prosecuted for these alleged crimes against humanity? Some of them must still be alive and if not, we should still know who they were. It is like they do not exist. How was the Catholic church, based in Rome, supposed to know about all of this back then? They are not organized like the military. With the Nuremberg trials, individuals were identified, tried and executed. When teachers are caught abusing their students, is the school board held responsible or is it the individual who actually committed the act? Does the Pope know who these people are? Was the pope in the day aware? I guess if they get an apology from the Pope then that opens the door for lawsuits and monetary awards. We should know who these individuals are before any more actions are taken.
Within any organization the culture of the organization determines the likelihood of good and bad things happening. Yes, there will always be rogue behavior within any organization - but how an organization deals with it has a lot to do with continuance of bad behavior and its prevalence.

Each organization, whether secular or religious bears responsibility for the prevalence of bad behavior within its ranks. Within that is the reality that if "A" does something bad, and "B", "C", and "D" who are tempted but do not actually participate see that "A" is not punished/banished from the organization - then "B", "C" and "D" are encouraged to join in bad behavior because there are no consequences. Even worse are organizations where the bad deeds of "A" are overlooked and "A" is promoted (sometimes that is because a more senior member of the organization wants someone they can manipulate because they "have something on them"). When an organization does not promptly punish rogue behavior, a rot sets in. Good people become demotivated and leave. That reinforces bad behavior as the peer group has fewer and fewer good folks to provide upward peer pressure. The organization becomes populated with the apathetic and perpetrators of rogue behavior and becomes a rotting corpse of what it should be.

It happens in business. It happens in any organization, even in the military (just consider the sexual abuse scandals in Canada's military).

The organization of the Catholic church, and some organized religions, were and still are guilty of allowing such bad behaviors to fester and grow within their ranks. As has been said many times "the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". Worse yet, the Catholic church organization betrayed its own espoused ethos and covered up for and protected the perpetrators of evil - and promoted them.

This is not a new problem for the Catholic church (the oldest of the "Christian" religious organizations). In fact some would say it started with their "deal with devil" in becoming the state religion of the Roman Empire. From that time when Constantine made Christianity the "state religion", the Roman Catholic church became an instrument of power and instruments of power are especially prone to attracting the wrong sorts of people. Even more so when wealth flows to such state religions.

There is a long history of systematic bad behaviors within the organizational ranks of the churches who were instruments of power. This is not unique to Christianity - and is to be found wherever one finds "state" religions. In fact, those systematic abuses by state religions are part of the impetus for the rise of secular democratic government in the first place - and why "the separation of church and state" remains so important to the maintenance of democracy.

It is important to distinguish between the religion itself and the organizational power structure of organized religions. In the case of Catholic church, the organizational structure and the people within that are where the problem lies. They (not all, but enough) have betrayed the ethos of their own religion and those who find that the Christian path is the one for them.
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The Green Barbarian
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Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

Post by The Green Barbarian »

Glacier wrote: Oct 27th, 2021, 11:01 pm

Check out Jordan Peterson's interview with Michael Shellenberger for a full explanation. The reason why no one wants to hold the individuals to account is that the modern left doesn't offer specific solutions, whether climate change or anything else. Instead, it's very collective and high level, and extremely vague. This is by design, and is meant to keep the grievances alive by not solving the problems or holding anyone directly responsible.
You totally nailed it! :up:
Justin Trudeau- racist, elitist, liar. What a sick piece of garbage.

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Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

Post by hobbyguy »

The Green Barbarian wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 9:56 am
Glacier wrote: Oct 27th, 2021, 11:01 pm

Check out Jordan Peterson's interview with Michael Shellenberger for a full explanation. The reason why no one wants to hold the individuals to account is that the modern left doesn't offer specific solutions, whether climate change or anything else. Instead, it's very collective and high level, and extremely vague. This is by design, and is meant to keep the grievances alive by not solving the problems or holding anyone directly responsible.
You totally nailed it! :up:
That is absolute rubbish. In point of fact it is indeed the very conservative organization of the Catholic church that is in question - and it is more liberal voices that have called it into question. The very conservative Catholic church organization has been called to account in part because it did not hold its rogue players to account.

Questions of competency in holding organizations to account are neither left nor right, but more so a matter of will driving careful, considered, documented and decided action. In all of that, there is also a required adherence to law. Necessarily that requires building a case through evidence, and in the case of the Catholic church organization they have deliberately built a fractioned organization with high degrees of opacity. That makes the legal assault on them not only difficult politically, but also very difficult to prove legally.

And yes, just like everything else, innocent until proven guilty, and the Catholic church organization has used the tactics of delay to run out the clock on some culpability for members of their organization. It is shameful, but that is what they have done.
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The Green Barbarian
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Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

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hobbyguy wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 11:07 am

That is absolute rubbish.
No, it's not. They totally nailed it, and anyone calling it "rubbish" is a massive fool. Just the worst.
Justin Trudeau- racist, elitist, liar. What a sick piece of garbage.

"Mr. Trudeau, you are a disgrace to any democracy. Please spare us your presence" - European Union addressing the sad sack of **** that is currently our PM.
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Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

Post by rustled »

The Green Barbarian wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 9:56 am
Glacier wrote: Oct 27th, 2021, 11:01 pm

Check out Jordan Peterson's interview with Michael Shellenberger for a full explanation. The reason why no one wants to hold the individuals to account is that the modern left doesn't offer specific solutions, whether climate change or anything else. Instead, it's very collective and high level, and extremely vague. This is by design, and is meant to keep the grievances alive by not solving the problems or holding anyone directly responsible.
You totally nailed it! :up:
Yes, I agree.
Ideology...gives evil-doing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination...[it] is the social theory which helps to make his actions seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes...
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Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!

Post by foenix »

hobbyguy wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 11:07 am
The Green Barbarian wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 9:56 am

You totally nailed it! :up:
That is absolute rubbish. In point of fact it is indeed the very conservative organization of the Catholic church that is in question - and it is more liberal voices that have called it into question. The very conservative Catholic church organization has been called to account in part because it did not hold its rogue players to account.

Questions of competency in holding organizations to account are neither left nor right, but more so a matter of will driving careful, considered, documented and decided action. In all of that, there is also a required adherence to law. Necessarily that requires building a case through evidence, and in the case of the Catholic church organization they have deliberately built a fractioned organization with high degrees of opacity. That makes the legal assault on them not only difficult politically, but also very difficult to prove legally.

And yes, just like everything else, innocent until proven guilty, and the Catholic church organization has used the tactics of delay to run out the clock on some culpability for members of their organization. It is shameful, but that is what they have done.
Totally agree.....the right these days always want to present issues as left or right when it's not......case in point is the division between the right and the left over vaccinations and mask in the US. It should just be about the science and saving lives but for the right it's all about the politics, the contrarian view and certainly not about reducing deaths.

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