No EI for the unvaccinated

rustled
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by rustled »

Sparki55 wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 2:28 pm
crookedmember wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 1:57 pm I'd say if you are willfully increasing the risk to fellow employees because you refuse to get vaccinated, your ethics need a booster shot.
And I completely agree with that!

What I don't agree with is termination of employment for those who don't get the shot and absolutely against ethics to deny EI.
I think it's likely that when we're looking back at this time, once fear and ignorance are no longer motivating the mob mentality that seems to lurk under the veneer of even the most "progressive" among us, more people will agree with you about the ethics of this.
Ideology...gives evil-doing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination...[it] is the social theory which helps to make his actions seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes...
-Solzhenitsyn
two_shoes1mit
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by two_shoes1mit »

Sparki55 wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 2:28 pm
crookedmember wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 1:57 pm I'd say if you are willfully increasing the risk to fellow employees because you refuse to get vaccinated, your ethics need a booster shot.
And I completely agree with that!

What I don't agree with is termination of employment for those who don't get the shot and absolutely against ethics to deny EI.
I would be more interested in seeing the vaxed and un-vaxed working side by side.
The vaxed should be protected........yes? Isn't that why they took the shots and more shots and now boosters.
Think of it like a control group experiment, then perhaps we can take a good look at Rustle's theory.
If the unvaxed are prepared to work among the shedding vax-d people, while wearing their masks, etc. LET THEM.
They are not refusing to work.
Hasn't this been allowed already for federal/provincial employees, health workers, walmart workers, teachers, students?
And yet................these people have not been dropping like flies.
HERE is where we are seeing the goal posts being moved. Its all about control and compliance.

Lets get real and lets get honest.
foenix
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by foenix »

rustled wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 3:38 pm
An EI disqualification ought not be in any way dependent on your sympathy, though - or anyone else's. More to the point, it ought to be incumbent on those doing the terminating to show the termination would stand up to legal and ethical scrutiny, and for those denying the EI to do the same.

Are you able to show that it's reasonable from an ethical standpoint to disqualify all employees who are being terminated because of a vaccine mandate? It seems unlikely to me, but I'm open to the possibility someone can.
No it's not. At this moment vaccine is a requirement for employment....period. That's how our system works. Don't like it? Don't work there or challenge it in the court system. It is what it is and there is no use whining about it and throwing out pat phrase du jour like "scrapegoating" because it has zero value. Last I looked this country was based on majority rule and since the majority support the vaccine mandate.....
two_shoes1mit
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by two_shoes1mit »

foenix wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 3:55 pm
rustled wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 3:38 pm
An EI disqualification ought not be in any way dependent on your sympathy, though - or anyone else's. More to the point, it ought to be incumbent on those doing the terminating to show the termination would stand up to legal and ethical scrutiny, and for those denying the EI to do the same.

Are you able to show that it's reasonable from an ethical standpoint to disqualify all employees who are being terminated because of a vaccine mandate? It seems unlikely to me, but I'm open to the possibility someone can.
No it's not. At this moment vaccine is a requirement for employment....period. That's how our system works. Don't like it? Don't work there or challenge it in the court system. It is what it is and there is no use whining about it and throwing out pat phrase du jour like "scrapegoating" because it has zero value. Last I looked this country was based on majority rule and since the majority support the vaccine mandate.....


How can you say,
"At this moment vaccine is a requirement for employment....period. That's how our system works."
That is NOT a true statement and you know it!
rustled
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by rustled »

fluffy wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 3:49 pm
rustled wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 3:38 pmAre you able to show that it's reasonable from an ethical standpoint to disqualify all employees who are being terminated because of a vaccine mandate? It seems unlikely to me, but I'm open to the possibility someone can.
Why would I want to ? In my view the employers are acting on their legal obligation to supply as safe a workplace as they can. Employees know the choices available to them and have to make their own decision. If that decision is to forgo employment rather than get vaccinated then so be it, they can fill their boots. But unless they can convince the government to change the EI regs then they're out of luck in that arena. I see no ethical dilemma here, I just see a weak case in support of AVs who in my opinion are taking a selfish and irresponsible position.
This is coming across as being indifferent to whether or not the people you don't agree with are being treated fairly. It seems to me that in a just society, it's not only the conformists who get justice.

No one should have to be forced to choose between termination of employment - and the denial of insurance - and a medical procedure, unless a very good case can be made for that choice being necessary. To make a very good case, the employer needs to show what I've asked you to show, strong evidence that
  1. unvaccinated employees who are infected with covid present a significantly greater risk of infecting their coworkers than do vaccinated employees who are infected with covid
  2. firing unvaccinated workers is more effective than testing to prevent infectious employees from infecting their coworkers
People who are unable to show this are, IMO, on thin ethical ice supporting termination of employment and denial of insurance.
Ideology...gives evil-doing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination...[it] is the social theory which helps to make his actions seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes...
-Solzhenitsyn
foenix
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by foenix »

......as for looking to the courts for clarification on this issue and if the US is any indication on vaccine mandates, good luck anti vaxxers because the courts are saying basically that the vaccine mandates are legal.

High Court Allows Vaccine Mandate Without Religious Opt-Out

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... us-opt-out
foenix
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by foenix »

rustled wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 4:05 pm
fluffy wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 3:49 pm

Why would I want to ? In my view the employers are acting on their legal obligation to supply as safe a workplace as they can. Employees know the choices available to them and have to make their own decision. If that decision is to forgo employment rather than get vaccinated then so be it, they can fill their boots. But unless they can convince the government to change the EI regs then they're out of luck in that arena. I see no ethical dilemma here, I just see a weak case in support of AVs who in my opinion are taking a selfish and irresponsible position.
This is coming across as being indifferent to whether or not the people you don't agree with are being treated fairly. It seems to me that in a just society, it's not only the conformists who get justice.

No one should have to be forced to choose between termination of employment - and the denial of insurance - and a medical procedure, unless a very good case can be made for that choice being necessary. To make a very good case, the employer needs to show what I've asked you to show, strong evidence that
  1. unvaccinated employees who are infected with covid present a significantly greater risk of infecting their coworkers than do vaccinated employees who are infected with covid
  2. firing unvaccinated workers is more effective than testing to prevent infectious employees from infecting their coworkers
People who are unable to show this are, IMO, on thin ethical ice supporting termination of employment and denial of insurance.
From the previous page.....
People who are vaccinated against Covid-19 are less likely to spread the virus even if they become infected, a new study finds, adding to a growing body of evidence that vaccines can reduce transmission of the delta variant.
GordonH
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by GordonH »

foenix wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 4:08 pm ......as for looking to the courts for clarification on this issue and if the US is any indication on vaccine mandates, good luck anti vaxxers because the courts are saying basically that the vaccine mandates are legal.

High Court Allows Vaccine Mandate Without Religious Opt-Out

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... us-opt-out
Hopefully Supreme Court of Canada gets off their :swear: and makes ruling on this side of the border.
rustled
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by rustled »

GordonH wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 4:12 pm
foenix wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 4:08 pm ......as for looking to the courts for clarification on this issue and if the US is any indication on vaccine mandates, good luck anti vaxxers because the courts are saying basically that the vaccine mandates are legal.

High Court Allows Vaccine Mandate Without Religious Opt-Out

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... us-opt-out
Hopefully Supreme Court of Canada gets off their :swear: and makes ruling on this side of the border.
The sooner the better, given the predicament for employers - and I hope they'll take a hard look at the denial of EI.

I see in the US, medical exemptions to the mandate are allowed.
Ideology...gives evil-doing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination...[it] is the social theory which helps to make his actions seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes...
-Solzhenitsyn
foenix
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by foenix »

two_shoes1mit wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 4:04 pm

No it's not. At this moment vaccine is a requirement for employment....period. That's how our system works. Don't like it? Don't work there or challenge it in the court system. It is what it is and there is no use whining about it and throwing out pat phrase du jour like "scrapegoating" because it has zero value. Last I looked this country was based on majority rule and since the majority support the vaccine mandate.....


How can you say,
"At this moment vaccine is a requirement for employment....period. That's how our system works."
That is NOT a true statement and you know it!
Oh yeah....I jumped the gun....right now it's for BC public workers and most Federal workers but you know it's coming for other places of employment.
foenix
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by foenix »

rustled wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 4:16 pm
GordonH wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 4:12 pm

Hopefully Supreme Court of Canada gets off their :swear: and makes ruling on this side of the border.
The sooner the better, given the predicament for employers - and I hope they'll take a hard look at the denial of EI.

I see in the US, medical exemptions to the mandate are allowed.
I wouldn't bet on it........
When it comes to the non-union workers, UHN argued the court cannot force an employer to continue employing someone it wishes to fire. “This honourable court has no jurisdiction to grant the relief sought in the plaintiffs’ motion,” its lawyers said in their written submissions.

Dunphy noted that laws relating to the private sector give employers the right to fire any employee at any time.

In Ontario, “every private sector employee has the right to pursue damages for wrongful dismissal, but they don’t have the right to sue for their job, to prevent termination or to get it back,” he added.

Perry replied that the plaintiffs aren’t suing to prevent their termination, but instead to prevent what they argue is an unlawful policy from being implemented and enforced.

Another lawyer for the plaintiffs, Ryan O’Connor, said that while private-sector employees can be fired at will, under the Ontario Human Rights Code, they cannot be fired for discriminatory reasons, including medical status.

In their response, lawyers representing UHN argued the health-care field has been enforcing mandatory injection polices for other vaccines for decades. They noted people are told before they enter nursing school that they will have to be vaccinated and can be fired if they refuse to do so.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalnews. ... lenge/amp/

For unionized workers,I believe the challenge has to come from the union and not the members.
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crookedmember
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by crookedmember »

I think it's likely that when we're looking back at this time, once fear and ignorance are no longer motivating the mob mentality that seems to lurk under the veneer of even the most "progressive" among us, more people will agree with you about the ethics of this.

I think it's at least as likely that the unvaxxed will continue to act as petri dishes and incubate new and more contagious variants in their sacred too-good-for-vaccine bodies and kill even more of us.

Then of course, the ethics of it all won't matter.
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Sparki55
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

crookedmember wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 4:44 pm I think it's at least as likely that the unvaxxed will continue to act as petri dishes and incubate new and more contagious variants in their sacred too-good-for-vaccine bodies and kill even more of us.

Then of course, the ethics of it all won't matter.
It's not the unvaccinated that are killing you, it's Covid. Would you blame a vaccinated person for killing you if you become ill from them and they weren't even showing symptoms so didn't isolate? The answer is no, so its the same for the unvaccinated.

The ethics matter, it's just fear from vaccine pushers that think they require everyone else to provide their safety for them.
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fluffy
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by fluffy »

Sparki55 wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 5:11 pmIt's not the unvaccinated that are killing you, it's Covid. Would you blame a vaccinated person for killing you if you become ill from them and they weren't even showing symptoms so didn't isolate? The answer is no, so its the same for the unvaccinated.


But it's not a blame game, no one is "at fault". It's a game of reduce the risk as best you can, and when you have a person or persons unnecessarily raisng that risk then you have to deal with it.
The ethics matter, it's just fear from vaccine pushers that think they require everyone else to provide their safety for them.
The other side of that coin is the AVs who are claiming the right to put the majority at risk to satisfy their own selfish agenda.
For anyone who can't afford to spay/neuter feral conservatives, there will be a free clinic on the first of every month.
/smartaz
rustled
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by rustled »

fluffy wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 5:28 pm
Sparki55 wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 5:11 pmIt's not the unvaccinated that are killing you, it's Covid. Would you blame a vaccinated person for killing you if you become ill from them and they weren't even showing symptoms so didn't isolate? The answer is no, so its the same for the unvaccinated.


But it's not a blame game, no one is "at fault". It's a game of reduce the risk as best you can, and when you have a person or persons unnecessarily raisng that risk then you have to deal with it.
For all this talk about risk, though, you've yet to show the evidence to support your assumption that an unvaccinated employee is significantly more likely to put their fellow workers at risk by coming to work while infectious, when compared to a vaccinated employee - who, as we know, should be much less likely to be aware they have covid while they are infectious with covid.

No one seems to be able to show the risk to the workplace is significantly greater, which would be the only reasonable and logical way to justify termination and subsequent denial of EI.

The appropriate step would be banishing covid from the workplace with testing. Instead: scapegoat the unvaccinated.
fluffy wrote:
The ethics matter, it's just fear from vaccine pushers that think they require everyone else to provide their safety for them.
The other side of that coin is the AVs who are claiming the right to put the majority at risk to satisfy their own selfish agenda.
So again, being ok with the termination of employment and denial of EI is coming across as "let's support justice and fair play for people who do conform to the majority and what I believe, but not for those who do not conform". Ethics of convenience. Morality of convenience.
Ideology...gives evil-doing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination...[it] is the social theory which helps to make his actions seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes...
-Solzhenitsyn

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