No EI for the unvaccinated

Sparki55
Lord of the Board
Posts: 4794
Joined: Feb 24th, 2013, 1:38 pm

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

fluffy wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 5:28 pm But it's not a blame game, no one is "at fault". It's a game of reduce the risk as best you can, and when you have a person or persons unnecessarily raisng that risk then you have to deal with it.
People are blaming the unvaccinated for many things. It is a blame game. Your opinion doesn't change that.
fluffy wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 5:28 pm The other side of that coin is the AVs who are claiming the right to put the majority at risk to satisfy their own selfish agenda.
People who don't want to vaccinate aren't making the choice to harm others. It's their own choice. They can be excluded from non-essential private businesses without any issues however when affecting their employment or government provided safety nets during lack of employment there exists an ethical problem.

This same argument will be made for climate change next, in fact, it's already happening. Soon choosing to eat beef will be known as adding risk to others and deemed unacceptable by the similar type crowds as vaccine pushers. I'm not making s slippery slope argument either, this is what is and will continue to happen.
Sparki55
Lord of the Board
Posts: 4794
Joined: Feb 24th, 2013, 1:38 pm

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

rustled wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 7:18 pm For all this talk about risk, though, you've yet to show the evidence to support your assumption that an unvaccinated employee is significantly more likely to put their fellow workers at risk by coming to work while infectious, when compared to a vaccinated employee - who, as we know, should be much less likely to be aware they have covid while they are infectious with covid.
Playing into a discussion on risk is exactly the way these mandates get put into place. There is no ethical argument about risk to others when discussing personal health choices.

It's not moral to require people to put risk on themselves (whether that risk is large or not, only matters the personal reasons of risk to the individual) to protect others.

These are unprecedented mandates.
rustled
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 16614
Joined: Dec 26th, 2010, 12:47 pm

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by rustled »

Sparki55 wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 7:25 pm
rustled wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 7:18 pm For all this talk about risk, though, you've yet to show the evidence to support your assumption that an unvaccinated employee is significantly more likely to put their fellow workers at risk by coming to work while infectious, when compared to a vaccinated employee - who, as we know, should be much less likely to be aware they have covid while they are infectious with covid.
Playing into a discussion on risk is exactly the way these mandates get put into place. There is no ethical argument about risk to others when discussing personal health choices.

It's not moral to require people to put risk on themselves (whether that risk is large or not, only matters the personal reasons of risk to the individual) to protect others.

These are unprecedented mandates.
I don't disagree.
Ideology...gives evil-doing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination...[it] is the social theory which helps to make his actions seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes...
-Solzhenitsyn
User avatar
fluffy
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 24328
Joined: Jun 1st, 2006, 5:42 pm

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by fluffy »

It's my understanding that research into tranmission rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated people are inconclusive at this point. We know for a fact that vaccination gives a large degree of protection from serious manifestations of the virus, but yes, the research into transmission rates is still ongoing. There are indications that asymptomatic infections occur at a much lower rate among vaccinated people, but some question still remains as to how long this effect lasts after receiving the vaccination. There are also indications that some vaccines are performing better than others in this arena.

At present, vaccination is our single best weapon to halt the spread of the virus. Since we don't currently know conclusively one way or the other about the vaccine's effect on transmission rates, isn't it just good judgment to err on the side of caution ?

There is another ethical question to consider, is society as a whole responsible for protecting those unable (or unwilling) to protect themselves ?
TRADITION: (n.) Peer pressure from dead people.
User avatar
fluffy
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 24328
Joined: Jun 1st, 2006, 5:42 pm

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by fluffy »

Sparki55 wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 7:25 pmIt's not moral to require people to put risk on themselves (whether that risk is large or not, only matters the personal reasons of risk to the individual) to protect others.
But if the choice is one between a greater risk and a lesser risk doesn't it make sense to go with the choice that offers the least risk for the greatest number of people ? You seem to be saying that you're okay with putting individual liberty before the greater good, an argument I simply cannot get on board with.
TRADITION: (n.) Peer pressure from dead people.
Sparki55
Lord of the Board
Posts: 4794
Joined: Feb 24th, 2013, 1:38 pm

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

fluffy wrote: Oct 31st, 2021, 7:23 am You seem to be saying that you're okay with putting individual liberty before the greater good, an argument I simply cannot get on board with.
Yes, I do when it involves personal heath, wellness and freedom of ones self (not saying people should be allowed to do anything they want). There is no clear definition of the greater good. Anything can be made into a greater good argument.

A climate activist who is a vegetarian can argue that eating beef affects the climate and it's wrong to eat beef so we are going to ban it to save the world and protect animals. This is already on its way to happening.

For me, the greater good is to have happiness within reason while on earth. I'll let you speculate what that is since it could almost define anything.
User avatar
fluffy
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 24328
Joined: Jun 1st, 2006, 5:42 pm

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by fluffy »

fluffy wrote: Oct 31st, 2021, 7:23 am You seem to be saying that you're okay with putting individual liberty before the greater good, an argument I simply cannot get on board with.
Sparki55 wrote: Oct 31st, 2021, 7:35 amYes, I do when it involves personal heath, wellness and freedom of ones self (not saying people should be allowed to do anything they want). There is no clear definition of the greater good. Anything can be made into a greater good argument.
But when that personal freedom comes at the expense of others doesn't that put you on the wrong side of the ethical argument ?
TRADITION: (n.) Peer pressure from dead people.
Sparki55
Lord of the Board
Posts: 4794
Joined: Feb 24th, 2013, 1:38 pm

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

fluffy wrote: Oct 31st, 2021, 7:47 am But when that personal freedom comes at the expense of others doesn't that put you on the wrong side of the ethical argument ?
You're asking someone to inject something into their body to protect your personal freedom of some reduced risk life. It's simple which choice is actually ethical.

People who don't vaccinate are accepting that life is random and they might become infected and then will isolate at that time without asking you to do anything to your body. It's also acceptable to ask them to wear the appropriate PPE. Maybe it's time we looked at respirators for those who are scared of the unvaccinated.

Vaccine pushers still have the ultimate choice to stay away from people at all costs yet because of some greater good argument here we are trying to coerce people against their beliefs.
User avatar
fluffy
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 24328
Joined: Jun 1st, 2006, 5:42 pm

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by fluffy »

Sparki55 wrote: Oct 31st, 2021, 7:55 amYou're asking someone to inject something into their body to protect your personal freedom of some reduced risk life. It's simple which choice is actually ethical.

People who don't vaccinate are accepting that life is random and they might become infected and then will isolate at that time without asking you to do anything to your body. It's also acceptable to ask them to wear the appropriate PPE. Maybe it's time we looked at respirators for those who are scared of the unvaccinated.

Vaccine pushers still have the ultimate choice to stay away from people at all costs yet because of some greater good argument here we are trying to coerce people against their beliefs.
I get what you're saying, but the elephant in the room is the extreme remoteness of a serious reaction to the vaccine, or the as yet unproven possibility of a long term side effect, compared to the obvious benefit of slowing the spread of the virus.

You're arguing for your right to roll the dice on infection, but the consumption of medical resources is on the table too, which takes the effects of your decision beyond just you.
Last edited by fluffy on Oct 31st, 2021, 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
TRADITION: (n.) Peer pressure from dead people.
Sparki55
Lord of the Board
Posts: 4794
Joined: Feb 24th, 2013, 1:38 pm

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

fluffy wrote: Oct 31st, 2021, 8:09 am You're arguing for your right to roll the dice on infection, but the consumption of medical resources is on the table too.
Yes I am (I'm vaccinated myself btw). I did it prior to coercion efforts but later than first available dose.

Prior to Covid our healthcare system was at 100%. I learned that from the pandemic that we kept hospitals at full capacity almost no standby human resources available. Poor planning on the governments side does not mean an immediate emergency on everyone else to makeup for the lack of resources.
GordonH
Grumpy Old Bleep
Posts: 32936
Joined: Oct 4th, 2008, 7:21 pm

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by GordonH »

Governor in Council needs to have the Justices of Supreme Court of Canada make a ruling on the Vaccination Mandate, to actually see if it is Constitutional or not.

If not then stop it in it’s tracks NOW, both Federally & Provincially.
User avatar
fluffy
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 24328
Joined: Jun 1st, 2006, 5:42 pm

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by fluffy »

Sparki55 wrote: Oct 31st, 2021, 8:18 amPrior to Covid our healthcare system was at 100%. I learned that from the pandemic that we kept hospitals at full capacity almost no standby human resources available. Poor planning on the governments side does not mean an immediate emergency on everyone else to makeup for the lack of resources.
This is hardly the fault of government though. A sudden and rapidly evolving health crisis has stretched resources to the limit, I see trying to dump blame for that on the government as a complete cop-out. Is there not some societal responsibility upon all of us the do what we can to prevent unnecessary increases to the load our healthcare system is currently experiencing ?
TRADITION: (n.) Peer pressure from dead people.
LANDM
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 11577
Joined: Sep 18th, 2009, 11:58 am

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by LANDM »

GordonH wrote: Oct 31st, 2021, 8:20 am Governor in Council needs to have the Justices of Supreme Court of Canada make a ruling on the Vaccination Mandate, to actually see if it is Constitutional or not.

If not then stop it in it’s tracks NOW, both Federally & Provincially.
That is not the governor general's duty.
You and 71 others Like this post
Sparki55
Lord of the Board
Posts: 4794
Joined: Feb 24th, 2013, 1:38 pm

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

fluffy wrote: Oct 31st, 2021, 8:22 am This is hardly the fault of government though. A sudden and rapidly evolving health crisis has stretched resources to the limit, I see trying to dump blame for that on the government as a complete cop-out. Is there not some societal responsibility upon all of us the do what we can to prevent unnecessary increases to the load our healthcare system is currently experiencing ?
They were warned for years and learned nothing about west Nile, SARS, H1N1, MERS and ZIKA.

It was completely expected. We we warned for years and kept hospitals at near 100% capacity.

There is not a societal responsibility to do anything. The only responsibly we can all agree on is do not harm and that only extends to stealing, murdering, etc. Not risking ones own personal safety no matter how small the risk in an effort some greater good.
User avatar
erinmore3775
Übergod
Posts: 1612
Joined: Aug 18th, 2010, 9:16 pm

Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by erinmore3775 »

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavir ... -1.5569971

Below is a quote from an article on whether a Charter challenge on vaccine mandates would be successful. While the Charter does protect from infringements due to sex, race, or diability, it does not protect against a perceived infringement based on a personal choice.


"Before we dive into the fine print, it’s important to note that both of our experts agree nothing is certain in the law. Certainly, if someone wanted to challenge the government over the charter, they could. But they say successfully arguing such a case is very unlikely.

As Cheryl Milne, executive director of the David Asper Centre for Constitutional Rights at the University of Toronto explains, a charter argument may apply under Section 15, which discusses equality, for someone with a disability who cannot get vaccinated. Or under Section 2, which deals with freedom of religion and expression.

But Milne points out there are very few circumstances in which people cannot be vaccinated and have sound proof of that.

Vaccine mandates are not “forced vaccination”

Would-be claimants would face multiple hurdles to prove their case. The first would involve establishing an infringement of a protected interest in “life, liberty or security of the person.”

But, contrary to claims otherwise, vaccine mandates do not constitute forced vaccination."


In Canada, whether a person is vaccinated is a free choice. Like all other choices protected under the Charter, that choice has risks, responsibilities, and consequences. If a person chooses not to be vaccinated, they are freely choosing to live within certain societal and social constraints. It also means that they may be opting out of various social nets.

The moral questions around vaccines, vaccine mandates, and the burden COVID places on our overburdened medical system is one for ethics professors. They can argue the values of those who opt in and out of societal programs. However, what I believe is that both sides arguing these points would agree is that responsibilities and consequences are tied to these moral choices.
We can’t fight homelessness, hunger, or poverty, but we can fight climate change. The juxtaposition of the now and the future, food for thought.

"You make a living by what you get; you make a life by what you give." - Winston Churchill

Return to “Canada”