Vax Mandate

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Beerhunter341
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Re: Vax Mandate

Post by Beerhunter341 »

What are you guys going on about? I think you must be in the wrong thread. You see, they have BKR in the subject. That is where you want to be.
Silverstarqueen
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Re: Vax Mandate

Post by Silverstarqueen »

Beerhunter341 wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 8:43 am
Sorry I forgot to put a sarcasm disclaimer. Critical thinkers would have been able to see that.
Sarcasm is supposed to be humorous or witty. Your comment was neither. Why not just say what you wanted to say, instead of expecting us to appreciate your weak humor?
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alanjh595
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Re: Vax Mandate

Post by alanjh595 »

Silverstarqueen wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 10:39 am
Beerhunter341 wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 8:43 am
Sorry I forgot to put a sarcasm disclaimer. Critical thinkers would have been able to see that.
Sarcasm is supposed to be humorous or witty. Your comment was neither. Why not just say what you wanted to say, instead of expecting us to appreciate your weak humor?
:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:
Bring back the LIKE button.
rustled
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Re: Vax Mandate

Post by rustled »

Silverstarqueen wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 10:39 am
Beerhunter341 wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 8:43 am
Sorry I forgot to put a sarcasm disclaimer. Critical thinkers would have been able to see that.
Sarcasm is supposed to be humorous or witty. Your comment was neither. Why not just say what you wanted to say, instead of expecting us to appreciate your weak humor?
I appreciated the humour. A few of my family members who got vaccinated to protect their elders now realize they can still take the virus to their elders. The "just one more jab and you won't be able to catch it and infect others" isn't working for them.

IMO, more of those who initially supported the mandates (and the denial of EI) are beginning to recognize the cognitive dissonance involved.
Silverstarqueen
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Re: Vax Mandate

Post by Silverstarqueen »

For some people, their immune system was not great to start with (cancer patients or those on immunosuppressants, or very elderly). This is nothing new, so not sure where the dissonance comes from. The vaccine by itself is not a silver bullet, it stimulated the immune system, but the rest is up to the immune system. Virologists have explained that the immune system will become more responsive to something it encounters more than once (just like our memory works better if it's given a bit of practice or reminder every now and then). Of course this is a bit confusing to people who haven't read or comprehended all the vast information that is out there (and misinformation). Lots of people don't have a lot of science education in their background (other than facebook "research"). The vaccine works for those people too, even if they don't understand how it works, but only if they get it.
It's quite possible that some people will not need the booster, or that the next generation of vaccine will be designed to last longer. For those who do need it, it's there and it works as israel has demonstrated.
rustled
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Re: Vax Mandate

Post by rustled »

Silverstarqueen wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 1:11 pm For some people, their immune system was not great to start with (cancer patients or those on immunosuppressants, or very elderly). This is nothing new, so not sure where the dissonance comes from. The vaccine by itself is not a silver bullet, it stimulated the immune system, but the rest is up to the immune system. Virologists have explained that the immune system will become more responsive to something it encounters more than once (just like our memory works better if it's given a bit of practice or reminder every now and then). Of course this is a bit confusing to people who haven't read or comprehended all the vast information that is out there (and misinformation). Lots of people don't have a lot of science education in their background (other than facebook "research"). The vaccine works for those people too, even if they don't understand how it works, but only if they get it.
It's quite possible that some people will not need the booster, or that the next generation of vaccine will be designed to last longer. For those who do need it, it's there and it works as israel has demonstrated.
The dissonance comes from being told "get a vaccination to protect your grandparents" and realizing your neighbour's fully vaccinated family all caught covid from a fully vaccinated relative who dropped by.

Of course, this is a bit confusing to people who think they can convince others that it is reasonable for us all to pretend a vaccinated person is highly unlikely to catch covid in any place "protected" by a vaccine mandate, or that it's reasonable to deny people their EI "because workplace safety" if they don't comply.

Talking down to the vaccinated who understand what the vaccine cannot do isn't productive, IMO, and may well be contributing to an overall inability to recognize dissonance.
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Re: Vax Mandate

Post by Sparki55 »

rustled wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 1:56 pm The dissonance comes from being told, "get a vaccination to protect your grandparents" and realizing your neighbor's fully vaccinated family all caught covid from a fully vaccinated relative who dropped by.

Of course, this is a bit confusing to people who think they can convince others that it is reasonable for us all to pretend a vaccinated person is highly unlikely to catch covid in any place "protected" by a vaccine mandate, or that it's reasonable to deny people their EI "because workplace safety" if they don't comply.

Talking down to the vaccinated who understand what the vaccine cannot do isn't productive, IMO, and may well be contributing to an overall inability to recognize dissonance.
Stories like that need to be suppressed!

Well worded rustled.
Jonrox

Re: Vax Mandate

Post by Jonrox »

rustled wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 1:56 pm The dissonance comes from being told "get a vaccination to protect your grandparents" and realizing your neighbour's fully vaccinated family all caught covid from a fully vaccinated relative who dropped by.

Of course, this is a bit confusing to people who think they can convince others that it is reasonable for us all to pretend a vaccinated person is highly unlikely to catch covid in any place "protected" by a vaccine mandate, or that it's reasonable to deny people their EI "because workplace safety" if they don't comply.

Talking down to the vaccinated who understand what the vaccine cannot do isn't productive, IMO, and may well be contributing to an overall inability to recognize dissonance.
It's curious that these folks thought the vaccines were 100% effective and stopped the spread completely when that was never the information that was shared.

While talking down to folks doesn't serve a great purpose, it's not our fault these folks aren't all that smart either.
rustled
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Re: Vax Mandate

Post by rustled »

Jonrox wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 2:10 pm
rustled wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 1:56 pm The dissonance comes from being told "get a vaccination to protect your grandparents" and realizing your neighbour's fully vaccinated family all caught covid from a fully vaccinated relative who dropped by.

Of course, this is a bit confusing to people who think they can convince others that it is reasonable for us all to pretend a vaccinated person is highly unlikely to catch covid in any place "protected" by a vaccine mandate, or that it's reasonable to deny people their EI "because workplace safety" if they don't comply.

Talking down to the vaccinated who understand what the vaccine cannot do isn't productive, IMO, and may well be contributing to an overall inability to recognize dissonance.
It's curious that these folks thought the vaccines were 100% effective and stopped the spread completely when that was never the information that was shared.
No one said "these folk though the vaccines were 100% effective and stopped the spread completely".

That "was never the information" that I shared, either - yet here it is in your assumption about what "they" thought. It's interesting, isn't it?
Jonrox wrote:While talking down to folks doesn't serve a great purpose, it's not our fault these folks aren't all that smart either.
I generally find it's easy to underestimate the intelligence of those who do not think the way we do. In my experience, that can be a mistake.

It will be interesting to see how well the pro-vax-mandate certainty some exhibit here holds up over time.
Silverstarqueen
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Re: Vax Mandate

Post by Silverstarqueen »

rustled wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 1:56 pm ]

The dissonance comes from being told "get a vaccination to protect your grandparents" and realizing your neighbour's fully vaccinated family all caught covid from a fully vaccinated relative who dropped by.

Of course, this is a bit confusing to people who think they can convince others that it is reasonable for us all to pretend a vaccinated person is highly unlikely to catch covid in any place "protected" by a vaccine mandate, or that it's reasonable to deny people their EI "because workplace safety" if they don't comply.

Talking down to the vaccinated who understand what the vaccine cannot do isn't productive, IMO, and may well be contributing to an overall inability to recognize dissonance.
So they didn't get the memo that the vaccine is 90% effective (with original covid, perhaps 80% with Delta)? I was quite aware when I got the vaccine that I still might be at risk if my grown sons, or their wives could get covid, or their children, and kept that in mind when having contacts between households. I was thrilled that I felt protected (probably) from getting a case of covid serious enough to be hospitalized, and remote chance that I would end up in ICU or dead.
Strangely, my grown sons, or their wives, did not think it a good idea to skip the vaccines, because they have family members, elderly, whom they still cherish, and so their Grandmother will still get to see her great-grandkids for at least a few years. Of course no one know for sure, but it was pretty much a no-brainer to try to protect the elderly. I would think most any nurse or caregiver, by definition "caring" for the elderly would mean not deliberately infecting them with a virus which has a pretty high case fatality rate for the elderly, and a very infectious virus.
I also heard about a family where the two adult daughters had an older dad, one daughter took whatever precautions to keep him safe, the other did not. Guess who infected him? He died. Okay, he might have eventually got infected anyway, but to not even make the effort, seems to me that person should stay away from the elderly or fragile.
Last edited by Silverstarqueen on Nov 2nd, 2021, 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rustled
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Re: Vax Mandate

Post by rustled »

Silverstarqueen wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 2:32 pm
rustled wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 1:56 pmThe dissonance comes from being told "get a vaccination to protect your grandparents" and realizing your neighbour's fully vaccinated family all caught covid from a fully vaccinated relative who dropped by.

Of course, this is a bit confusing to people who think they can convince others that it is reasonable for us all to pretend a vaccinated person is highly unlikely to catch covid in any place "protected" by a vaccine mandate, or that it's reasonable to deny people their EI "because workplace safety" if they don't comply.

Talking down to the vaccinated who understand what the vaccine cannot do isn't productive, IMO, and may well be contributing to an overall inability to recognize dissonance.
So they didn't get the memo that the vaccine is 90% effective (with original covid, perhaps 80% with Delta)? I was quite aware when I got the vaccine that I still might be at risk if my grown sons, or their wives could get covid, or their children, and kept that in mind when having contacts between housholds. I was thrilled that I felt protected (probably) from getting a case of covid serious enough to be hospitalized, and remote chance that I would end up in ICU or dead.
Good for you, Silverstarqueen! I'm so pleased you were thrilled. I wonder where you got the 80% figure? You seem to think that means there's only a 20% chance a fully vaccinated person will infect someone else with covid?
Silverstarqueen wrote: Strangely, my grown sons, or their wives, did not think it a good idea to skip the vaccines, because they have family members, elderly, whom they still cherish, and so their Grandmother will still get to see her grandkids for at least a few years. Of course no one know for sure, but it was pretty much a no-brainer to try to protect the elderly.
I'm not sure why you found it strange.

My family thought the best way to protect the elderly in our family, too. Now, knowing so many people who are fully vaxxed who have caught covid and given it to others, they realize the vaccine's efficacy is far less than any of us had hoped - I doubt any of us would leap to the conclusion "80% chance I won't be able to catch it and give it to Gram", but perhaps we're overcautious. Couple that with the diminishing immunity and they have questions about how often the boosters will be required to give any sense that the vaccines can be trusted to provide reasonable protection for Grampa and Gramma.
Silverstarqueen wrote: I would think most any nurse or caregiver, by definition "caring" for the elderly would mean not deliberately infecting them with a virus which as a pretty high case fatality rate for the elderly, and a very infectious virus.
So in your mind, the sole difference between a vaccinated worker who doesn't know they're infectious and an unvaccinated one who doesn't know they're infectious is the intent to infect their patients deliberately? That's an ugly assumption to make, IMO.

Intentional or not, there's little difference in outcome for those they're caring for. The vaccinated worker who doesn't know they're infectious may spend longer with their patient than the unvaccinated worker who, we're told, is more likely to be more symptomatic.
Silverstarqueen wrote: I also heard about a family where the two adult daughters had an older dad, one daughter took whatever precautions to keep him safe, the other did not. Guess who infected him? He died. Okay, he might have eventually got infected anyway, but to not even make the effort, seems to me that person should stay away from the elderly or fragile.
Isolating them is the only way to take every precaution to keep them safe. Most elderly want to see their family members. The vaccinated daughter would have been less likely to know she had covid - so unless she spent NO time with her father, she may have brought him covid. I think I'll take your assumption he got it from the unvaccinated daughter with the same grain of salt so often applied with anecdotes here on the forum - when a poster seems overly passionate about their cause.

Although the certainty you have about the mandates serves you well today, that certainty may not hold up.
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Pappywinkle
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Re: Vax Mandate

Post by Pappywinkle »

rustled wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 2:51 pm My family thought the best way to protect the elderly in our family, too. Now, knowing so many people who are fully vaxxed who have caught covid and given it to others, they realize the vaccine's efficacy is far less than any of us had hoped - I doubt any of us would leap to the conclusion "80% chance I won't be able to catch it and give it to Gram", but perhaps we're overcautious. Couple that with the diminishing immunity and they have questions about how often the boosters will be required to give any sense that the vaccines can be trusted to provide reasonable protection for Grampa and Gramma.
Desperately clinging to the notion that the only reason to get vaccinated is to prevent "giving Gram" is either ignorant, obtuse, or both.

Try this: "Gram" being vaccinated may mean an 80-90% chance that Gram won't get seriously ill or need to be hospitalized if she catches covid.
It's that special time of year when conservatives stupidly act like they're not allowed to say Merry Christmas.

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domain
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Re: Vax Mandate

Post by domain »

Based on the 2016 Census:
- 35,151,728 people in Canada
- 5,014,425 people in Canada between 0 - 12 years old, (14.2% of total population)
- 30,137,303 people in Canada > 12 years old, (85.7% of total population)

Since the 'vax' mandate has not gotten 100% of the population > 12yrs old, there is still this pesky 5-10% of the >12yr old population that refuses to submit to the vaccine, which is insubordination towards government officials - unacceptable behavior.

The 0-12 year old crowd can be easily dealt with by requiring the vaccines for access to any school or childcare system. Further, pressure can be put onto unwilling parents by removing their childcare tax rebates, and any childcare related funding they receive. If that fails to get every eligible child injected from 5-12 (eventually down to 0), the next step can be to enforce the vaccine requirements by leveraging child services, and removing the child from the abusive (vaccine refusing) parents custody, and not returning the child to their custody until until 14 days after the 2nd (or 3rd depending on the vaccine manufacturers recommendation) injection into the child AND the parents have also received all of their injections.

As for the rest of the > 12 year old population, "What is to be done" with these insolent, science-denying, natural-immunity-obsessed 'individuals' who think they have the right to choose what happens to their body while expecting to keep their jobs and their ability to travel, sit down at a restaurant table, exercise indoors, attend group sports, etc? This level of hubris has never been paralleled in the history of science.

Maybe it is simply time for the government to take the gloves off and cleanse society of these remaining science-deniers in the population that refuses to be be injected. I think with 90-95% of the population > 12 years old in support of these vaccines and the mandates (as evidenced by their cooperation), society could forgive itself for letting the government do the right thing by simply eliminating the risk that these remaining science-deniers pose to the vaccinated majority, using any means at the governments disposal, even if temporary laws are required to protect the government from criminal charges.

Its been 19 months since the start of the pandemic and 2-weeks to flatten the curve, wash your hands, do your part, and with 90-95% of the eligible population vaccinated, we are still stuck with masks on our faces. This is because of the unvaccinated - it has always been because of the unvaccinated.

If this tiny minority group of natural-immunity obsessed individuals, who somehow managed to survive the deadliest pandemic the world has ever seen, and so far have survived the greatest discrimination against a group of people in a nation since 1930's Germany, thinks they can also survive a government mandate to cleanse society of all risks posed by non-believers of the vaccine, they are dead wrong.
With honesty and integrity.
Silverstarqueen
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Re: Vax Mandate

Post by Silverstarqueen »

It was not my assumption as to which daughter gave their Dad the virus. If it makes you feel better to change events to suit you, fill yer boots. They know which daughter because their dad got sick after one visited and not the other, one was sick and not the other. But that wouldn't make sense to you would it? No one else in his circle of contacts was infected.
Some people who are visiting or caring for the elderly are making efforts to keep them from getting infected, some families are not. Who pays the price? Maybe it was just luck eh, that we haven't infected any elderly or seniors in the extended family, and not the vaccines? The stats say differently that the people who have serious cases, are in hospital or ICU, are disproportionately unvaccinated.
I think "cleans" is a bit of an overstatement, for people who can get a vaccine if they badly want to enter a bar or restaurant or music festival. Since travel was one of the highest risk activities, it makes sense to restrict public travel situations if people are not vaccinated, they could spread their infection to so many, and inifections never be traceable. So they don't have to suffer this "cleansing" as you call it, they could just get the vaccine. If they have a good reason why not, let's have it.
rustled
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Re: Vax Mandate

Post by rustled »

Silverstarqueen wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 3:04 pm It was not my assumption as to which daughter gave their Dad the virus. If it makes you feel better to change events to suit you, fill yer boots. They know which daughter because their dad got sick after one visited and not the other, one was sick and not the other. But that wouldn't make sense to you would it?
Either daughter makes sense to me, which is - I think - the point. You're quite certain of what you're quite certain of, as is your prerogative.
Silverstarqueen wrote:No one else in his circle of contacts was infected.
It's entirely possible you are right about who infected him. I suppose you might even know for sure whether or not the vaccinated daughter was tested for covid... and the rest of his circle of contacts.

Cuz again: we're told the vaccinated are less likely to be symptomatic, less likely to know they're ill, less likely to be home sick in bed etc. ...
Silverstarqueen wrote: Some people who are visiting or caring for the elderly are making efforts to keep them from getting infected, some families are not. Who pays the price? Maybe it was just luck eh, that we haven't infected any elderly or seniors in the extended family, and not the vaccines? The stats say differently that the people who have serious cases, are in hospital or ICU, are disproportionately unvaccinated.
Yup, that's who's most likely to end up with serious cases, in hospital or ICU (and not at work!) It's not necessarily, though, the unvaccinated who are disproportionately spreading it around.

We know the vaccinated are less symptomatic and therefore less likely to be aware they're infectious. Ignoring that reality just seems pointless to me.

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