Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

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Sparki55
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by Sparki55 »

TheLiteralKingofEngland wrote: Nov 17th, 2021, 5:12 pm lol, so it's perfectly acceptable to double-cross gay citizens. "We're accepting of gay people.......oh but you should read the fine print that stipulates we're not accepting at all and will try to convert you in a process that will probably lead to you committing suicide."
Conversion therapy is banned, so no risk of suicide from illegal harmful "therapy".

Why don't you dress up like a Muslim and then try and join Christianity while refusing to remove your ceremonial outfit? Then cry discrimination when the church tries to convert you to their way of teaching.

Nobody is forcing anyone to join a church. It's not an essential service.
youjustcomplain
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by youjustcomplain »

Sparki55 wrote: Because something is offered a tax break it must change it's beliefs to accommodate everything, even if goes against the religions beliefs? Yeah, not buying it. How about don't join a church that doesn't accept your own beliefs.

Maybe you should try joining a mosque and reading the bible there and then whine when they send you literature on the Quran.
Noone said anything about tax break meaning change of belief. Thats not the issue.
Noone is attacking Christianity specifically. mosque's are just as much in the firing line.

Please don't think that the Christian faith is the only group in the spotlight. All monotheistic faith groups seem to be on spectrum of intolerance towards beliefs outside of their own. The issue isn't that Christians think homosexuality is a sin. The issue is that they walk a fine line between spreading hate and intolerance towards groups of people in society, while getting benefits directly from government. This means that government supports the church when it does awful things to people. That is the issue.

I have no issue with Christians believing anything. Christians can continue to believe a wide variety of awfulness form the bible. There is no reason why anyone should care about what I think when it comes to their faith. Just as I don't care what Christians think about my lack of faith. There is a truce there. :) But I don't get funded or supported by government. I don't have a government supported safe place where I can spread my hate and intolerance towards others in society.

All that said, I used harsh language. I'm under no misconceptions around the good that churches do in society. I fully recognize that churches/mosque's do have a positive affect on communities too; It's not all bad. But as long as they're taking government hand-outs, I think they need to be accountable to those who are giving the handout; tax payers. As a tax payer, I don't want to see my tax dollars supporting churches IF they are permitted to be intolerant and uninclusive.
youjustcomplain
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by youjustcomplain »

AtlantisKelowna post wrote: The only thing that truly needs to go is the attitudes of people who are overly concerned with someone's religious choice. It's none of your business.
Disagree. Religious beliefs are protected and for good reason. It would be thought police to treat this differently. However, this only goes so far. I can't have a child bride because it's my religious choice. I can't have slaves just because of my religious choice. The religious are free to believe in those things, and many others, (mostly good probably), but not all choices made are protected by religious freedoms. There may come a day when the intolerance and unacceptance of homosexuality will be treated as hate speech and be illegal. We're not there yet, but we slowly outgrow a lot of the awful things once supported and taught in Churches, (and in society as a whole)
AtlantisKelowna post wrote: If you do not believe that's fine if you do that's fine as well. Who are you to dictate people's religious choices or beliefs?
As long as a church is getting government support through tax breaks, all tax payers have every right to criticize what goes on in those institutions. Not with individuals beliefs, but the actual acts that take place. If churches want more impunity to public scrutiny, then they need to stop accepting tax breaks.

AtlantisKelowna post wrote: I could make a similar argument in regard to the LGBTQ community demanding you conform to their belief or be ostracized as there are many instances of this happening. Just because you choose to live a certain way does not mean others need to agree with you. Focus on your own life, worry about your own problems and use what time you have to enjoy life. Simple
Sorry, can you elaborate? what beliefs do the LGBTQ community share?
Keep in mind, the LGBTQ community consists of everyone who identifies as being LGBTQ. There is no pope. No reference text such as a bible telling them what to believe. No weekly gatherings with a leader. They aren't a flock. They don't share a common belief system.
What they do have is a common problem; Unacceptance in society as a whole, and that is typically more clear/obvious in right wing, conservative, religious regions.

Nobody is asking you to agree with anyone in the LGBTQ community. If they "choose" to live a lifestyle you don't agree with, they don't care. But what they seem to want from you is more in line with apathy, than what they get now which is contempt.
youjustcomplain
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by youjustcomplain »

Sparki55 wrote: The church believes being gay isn't following the word of god, that's a belief. I'm not saying gay people choose to be gay.
But how is is not gods intention if the person isn't choosing to be gay?
If we are to accept that gay people are that way irrespective of their choice, then they were made that way. Doesn't god take some responsibility for making people gay?
If god made them straight and they choose to be gay, (this is no longer widely believed thankfully), then I understand why believers would be so against homosexuality. However most believers, like you Sparki, don't seem to believe that gay people are choosing to be gay.

Did god make them the way they are or not?
barianqueen
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by barianqueen »

Sparki55 wrote: Nov 17th, 2021, 4:48 pm I'm not saying gay people choose to be gay.
I'm confused. Then why did you type this part?
Sparki55 wrote: Nov 17th, 2021, 4:39 pm If someone reaches out to join a church that has a history of not agreeing with a certain beliefs, why is it the churches fault that you try and force your beliefs on them?
If being gay isn't a choice or belief then what belief is this lady attempting to force on the church?

Is this some sort of pretzel situation where being gay isn't a choice but living a gay life is a choice or something?
Last edited by barianqueen on Nov 18th, 2021, 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sparki55
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by Sparki55 »

youjustcomplain wrote: Nov 18th, 2021, 9:09 am But how is is not gods intention if the person isn't choosing to be gay?
If we are to accept that gay people are that way irrespective of their choice, then they were made that way. Doesn't god take some responsibility for making people gay?
If god made them straight and they choose to be gay, (this is no longer widely believed thankfully), then I understand why believers would be so against homosexuality. However most believers, like you Sparki, don't seem to believe that gay people are choosing to be gay.

Did god make them the way they are or not?
I'm not religious, I have no idea. Just baffles me that someone would want to join a group that doesn't support their lifestyle.
Sparki55
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by Sparki55 »

barianqueen wrote: Nov 18th, 2021, 9:42 am If being gay isn't a choice or belief then what belief is this lady attempting to force on the church?

Is this some sort of pretzel situation where being gay isn't a choice but living a gay life is a choice or something?
Being gay isn't a choice, that's been agreed upon in our society.

The church's belief is that nobody should act out their gay behavior as it is somehow a sin.

Anyone is free to believe anything they want. What they aren't allowed to do is seek out and harass people.
Sparki55
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by Sparki55 »

TheLiteralKingofEngland wrote: Nov 18th, 2021, 11:51 am Being gay isn’t a lifestyle and as noted numerous times, the woman specifically asked the church if it was accepting of homosexuality. So in fact, she did not want to join a group disapproving of her right to exist as a gay person. She never sought to enforce her belief systems on a church either. I don’t know why these facts are being ignored in favour of suggesting it’s acceptable for a church to flat-out lie.
Why don't you apply for a role in a movie that is requesting race "y" and you are race "x". No matter what you do you will not get the role. That's not discriminatory and completely legal. So why join a church that doesn't want gay people? Clearly their mission is to follow the bible.
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by Sparki55 »

TheLiteralKingofEngland wrote: Nov 18th, 2021, 12:11 pm She was told the church was accepting of gay people. I don’t know why this fact is so difficult to comprehend. I mean, it's right at the top of the article
Was she not allowed to join the church? Could the church believe she is being loved by them preaching their interpretation of god to her and sending her handouts to "find the lord" or whatever?

She's free to leave and try another church, this is such a non-issue.
Sparki55
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by Sparki55 »

TheLiteralKingofEngland wrote: Nov 18th, 2021, 2:19 pm We clearly don’t agree but I admit I’m very perplexed why you appear to be making excuses for blatant lying. It’s kind of like a club declaring that all races are welcome then the next day changing course and saying blacks aren’t allowed.
You think it's lying. I think it's a misunderstanding.

She is welcome. She can continue to attend this church. They aren't banning her. They accept who she is right now. Next is the conversion to their beliefs which goes against her choice of who to love. I'm extending here, but I imagine this church would allow her to continue to attend but will also continue to try and stop what they see as sinning.

Accepting gays and saying "you will be loved here" does not mean they are tolerant of what they deem a sin. The truth is she is welcome to attend. You think this also means they fully accept her being gay.
Sparki55
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by Sparki55 »

TheLiteralKingofEngland wrote: Nov 18th, 2021, 3:17 pm Except being gay isn't a choice which I thought was already established and agreed here, but again with the word 'choice....'
Being gay isn't a choice according to our laws and societal consensus.

The earth is also round.

People are free to form groups where they discuss and practice that the earth isn't round and being gay is a sin.

You think the church should bend to your/ her preference and I'm saying she should try another church.
Sparki55
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by Sparki55 »

TheLiteralKingofEngland wrote: Nov 18th, 2021, 3:33 pm I think you missed my point entirely....

I've said churches shouldn't lie to people's faces, sucker in minority groups, and then try to change them with conversion therapy and hate literature.
I hear your point. You think the church mislead her by saying she would be welcome to attend and then handed her a bunch of information on how being gay is a sin.

I am saying you are mistaken in your assumption. The church only told her she was welcome to attend, that she would be loved. They let her attend and likely in their opinion being loved involves helping people follow the word of their god and explain what is a sin.

They didn't lie to her face. They said she would be accepted and loved. She was accepted and then was given information on what is considered a sin by the church. They didn't all of a sudden decide when she showed up that she wasn't allowed in anymore and proceed to slam the door in her face.
barianqueen
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by barianqueen »

In what kind of twisted world does You Will Be Loved translate to:

We vehemently disagree with your existence as a homosexual woman and want you to undergo reparation therapy to change your sexual proclivities.

Are members of varying races, occupations, and genders being told to undero reparation therapy or only teh gays?
AtlantisKelowna
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by AtlantisKelowna »

AtlantisKelowna post wrote: If you do not believe that's fine if you do that's fine as well. Who are you to dictate people's religious choices or beliefs?
youjustcomplain wrote: Nov 18th, 2021, 9:03 am As long as a church is getting government support through tax breaks, all tax payers have every right to criticize what goes on in those institutions. Not with individuals beliefs, but the actual acts that take place. If churches want more impunity to public scrutiny, then they need to stop accepting tax breaks.
In this case when a congregation member took it upon themselves to send information to this lady how is it the church's responsibility? The church isn't responsible for what people do unless they are employed by them and in this case, the person was not.

Corporations, non-profits and charities all benefit from tax breaks much like churches and many of them share questionable practices, engage in fraudulent activity and have executive boards making ridiculous 6 figure salaries. I feel as though these are much bigger issues than a religion following its beliefs and being shamed for doing so.

The best part about religion is that you can choose to be religious or not, it is not mandatory but if you choose to follow one, then expect to share the beliefs and not have them changed to suit your needs. Pretty simple concept.
AtlantisKelowna post wrote: I could make a similar argument in regard to the LGBTQ community demanding you conform to their belief or be ostracized as there are many instances of this happening. Just because you choose to live a certain way does not mean others need to agree with you. Focus on your own life, worry about your own problems and use what time you have to enjoy life. Simple
youjustcomplain wrote: Nov 18th, 2021, 9:03 am Sorry, can you elaborate? what beliefs do the LGBTQ community share?
Keep in mind, the LGBTQ community consists of everyone who identifies as being LGBTQ. There is no pope. No reference text such as a bible telling them what to believe. No weekly gatherings with a leader. They aren't a flock. They don't share a common belief system.
What they do have is a common problem; Unacceptance in society as a whole, and that is typically more clear/obvious in right wing, conservative, religious regions.
Let me ask you this if I was to attend an LGBTQ event and decided to share my own belief of sexual orientation, would I be welcomed? Chances are I would be run out of the place by an angry mob for not sharing their beliefs.

Some may not agree with that lifestyle and that's perfectly fine. Just because someone doesn't agree with your sexual preference does not mean they don't accept you as a person. People, who base their judgement of a person on this matter rather than their character are generally :cuss: people anyway so why care what they think?

Your sexual orientation is a personal matter and doesn't need to be flaunted all over the place. Keep private matters to you and your circle because no matter what opinion is forced upon society some will agree, some won't and some don't really give a :cuss: If you can't handle opposing views then don't put yourself out there and then play victim if some disagree.

At the end of the day, the rest of society doesn't really matter. Surround yourself with those you love and stop worrying about what everyone else thinks.
Sparki55
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Re: Lake Country Church: Not gay accepting?

Post by Sparki55 »

barianqueen wrote: Nov 18th, 2021, 3:52 pm In what kind of twisted world does You Will Be Loved translate to:

We vehemently disagree with your existence as a homosexual woman and want you to undergo reparation therapy to change your sexual proclivities.

Are members of varying races, occupations, and genders being told to undero reparation therapy or only teh gays?
Thought experiment time!

Lake Country Vegan Club

There is a meat-eater looking to join a vegan club in Kelowna. He finds a vegan club that says "meat-eaters welcome". When he reaches out they say he will be accepted into the club. When he shows up a fellow vegan hands him a pamphlet with animals being sent to a slaughterhouse and a bunch of information on why eating meat is a terrible thing to do. They vehemently disagree with his existence as a meat-eater and want him to undergo training to change his diet. Then the meat-eater contacts the news and complains he was not accepted into the group, they tried to convert him!

He agreed that animals should be treated better and wanted to be part of a group that fights for it, but didn't want to follow their beliefs exactly. He feels excluded and that the club shouldn't attack his personal diet choice.

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