Paid sick leave for employees in B.C.

[butcher99]

35 years. all in union shops. We all worked hard. I never saw anyone say anything about anyone working too hard or putting out too much. If anything it was the exact opposite. Sure there were slow workers and fast workers but NEVER was anyone told they worked too fast. EVER. in 35 years and at least a dozen different union shops.
It has been proven over the years that although union shops make more per hour they more than make up for it in output.
Here is a very good article on why that is true.
https://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/un ... fficiency/
And one of the number one things unions fight for? Sick pay for employees

Bullcrap.

Nope. 100% true. 35 years in the industry. almost all in union shops. Retired at 57 thanks to union benefits. Got 150 hours more or less unused sick time paid out when I pulled the plug. Medical, dental, pension, eye glasses, prescriptions for the last few years, all fully paid for by the company. How does that stack up with your non union jobs?
Did you even get sick pay? Mostly I think the non-union people are just jealous.

[Sparki55]

Nope. 100% true. 35 years in the industry. almost all in union shops. Retired at 57 thanks to union benefits. Got 150 hours more or less unused sick time paid out when I pulled the plug. Medical, dental, pension, eye glasses, prescriptions for the last few years, all fully paid for by the company. How does that stack up with your non union jobs?
Did you even get sick pay? Mostly I think the non-union people are just jealous.

You won't believe me even if I answer honestly.

[butcher99]

Nope. 100% true. 35 years in the industry. almost all in union shops. Retired at 57 thanks to union benefits. Got 150 hours more or less unused sick time paid out when I pulled the plug. Medical, dental, pension, eye glasses, prescriptions for the last few years, all fully paid for by the company. How does that stack up with your non union jobs?
Did you even get sick pay? Mostly I think the non-union people are just jealous.

You won't believe me even if I answer honestly.

Some people just hate unions. And for no good reason. They are not perfect but they are much better than no union. It is unions that got you the 40 hour work week instead of the 80. It is unions that got you holidays etc.
So 2 people told you you work too hard. So? They going to report you to the union? No. They going to report you to the company? No.
I know quite a few people who could not figure out why they had to pay union dues since it got them nothing. Then when the company came down on them suddenly they understood what the union was for. Or, they felt they were being harassed and all of a sudden the union was there for them.
I never used the union for anything and paid my dues for years with no problem. I know what they got me.
First off, they got me sick pay. Which I seldom used. however just knowing I could take a day off work if I got ill and not loose a days pay was worth it.
The sick pay alone paid all my union dues for 35 years.

[Boosted632]

You won't believe me even if I answer honestly.

Some people just hate unions. And for no good reason. They are not perfect but they are much better than no union. It is unions that got you the 40 hour work week instead of the 80. It is unions that got you holidays etc.
So 2 people told you you work too hard. So? They going to report you to the union? No. They going to report you to the company? No.
I know quite a few people who could not figure out why they had to pay union dues since it got them nothing. Then when the company came down on them suddenly they understood what the union was for. Or, they felt they were being harassed and all of a sudden the union was there for them.
I never used the union for anything and paid my dues for years with no problem. I know what they got me.
First off, they got me sick pay. Which I seldom used. however just knowing I could take a day off work if I got ill and not loose a days pay was worth it.
The sick pay alone paid all my union dues for 35 years.

Yaaa I bet you used every one of those sick days to lol

[Sparki55]

Some people just hate unions. And for no good reason. They are not perfect but they are much better than no union. It is unions that got you the 40 hour work week instead of the 80. It is unions that got you holidays etc.

I relate the 40 hour work week to productivity, not unions.
https://www.okta.com/identity-101/40-hour-work-week/

So 2 people told you you work too hard. So? They going to report you to the union? No. They going to report you to the company? No.

No, the union I worked in was located in North Vancouver and covered multiple businesses. They acted like a band of brothers. If you were liked by them, your life was easy, if you weren't liked you were treated like garbage.

Some of the things that actually happened:
- Threatening to slash your car tires (and they carried thru) if you didn't punch out certain members that left their punch card with you and took off 30 min early.
- Stealing your lunch.
- Undoing your work completed so you have to re-do it of face punishment from management.

^^^ complaining about any of that made the harassment worse. Unless you had a camera or some other concrete proof of the harassment, the union didn't care.

I know quite a few people who could not figure out why they had to pay union dues since it got them nothing. Then when the company came down on them suddenly they understood what the union was for. Or, they felt they were being harassed and all of a sudden the union was there for them.

When working well I don't disagree.

I never used the union for anything and paid my dues for years with no problem. I know what they got me.
First off, they got me sick pay. Which I seldom used. however just knowing I could take a day off work if I got ill and not loose a days pay was worth it.

I can get myself sick days and all sorts of perks in a non-union environment. Currently I have 10 sick days, 5 family days, 4 weeks of vacation, and a raise each year, no union dues to pay either!

[butcher99]

Some people just hate unions. And for no good reason. They are not perfect but they are much better than no union. It is unions that got you the 40 hour work week instead of the 80. It is unions that got you holidays etc.
So 2 people told you you work too hard. So? They going to report you to the union? No. They going to report you to the company? No.
I know quite a few people who could not figure out why they had to pay union dues since it got them nothing. Then when the company came down on them suddenly they understood what the union was for. Or, they felt they were being harassed and all of a sudden the union was there for them.
I never used the union for anything and paid my dues for years with no problem. I know what they got me.
First off, they got me sick pay. Which I seldom used. however just knowing I could take a day off work if I got ill and not loose a days pay was worth it.
The sick pay alone paid all my union dues for 35 years.

Yaaa I bet you used every one of those sick days to lol

Why would I? If you took the time to read what I posted, we negotiated that after a maximum of 90 hours we got paid out the hours over 90 up t0 6 every January instead of just accumulating them. It was a few years before I quit that that came in so I cashed out about 150 sick days as well when I quit. When I quit i got paid out 6 weeks holidays and close to four weeks sick pay.
We also worked a 36 hour work week but got paid for 40. Every week we accumulated 4 hours time off up to a max of 16 or minus hours that was scheduled at managements convenience. So there was a 32 hour lee way there. We could owe the company 16 hours or they could owe us 16 hours time off maximum.
Those are things a good union team can get you.
Oh ya, and the pension. $55. per month per year of service. The pension sits at over 90% fully funded right now.

Who needs a union? You do.

[Sparki55]

Why would I? If you took the time to read what I posted, we negotiated that after a maximum of 90 hours we got paid out the hours over 90 up to 6 every January instead of just accumulating them. It was a few years before I quit that that came in so I cashed out about 150 sick days as well when I quit. When I quit i got paid out 6 weeks holidays and close to four weeks sick pay.

So, you are given sick days, and instead of use it or lose it system, it was a use it or get more $$$ system...

That just promotes people coming in sick so they can rack up extra $$$...

[butcher99]

I am wondering if employers might start offering pay in leu for any unused "sick days" or add them to their regular annual vacation time.
I believe that this new law will directly affect all new hires' wages and bonus' as well as all existing employees and their advancement up the pay scale.

That comes up every time a minimum wage raise comes up. It never happens. It really is not a lot of money per day. Works out to about $2.30 a day for a minimum wage earner full time.

Every time raising the minimum wage comes up we hear about how many people will be laid off. Thing is, not many businesses are in the habit of carrying extra staff they can just lay off.

[Bsuds]

Every time raising the minimum wage comes up we hear about how many people will be laid off. Thing is, not many businesses are in the habit of carrying extra staff they can just lay off.

All we are hearing lately is we need more employees and can't fill the jobs no matter what we offer.

[butcher99]

Every time raising the minimum wage comes up we hear about how many people will be laid off. Thing is, not many businesses are in the habit of carrying extra staff they can just lay off.

All we are hearing lately is we need more employees and can't fill the jobs no matter what we offer.

So then mandating sick days will not cost anyone their job or reduce their hours. Long past time for this

[Sparki55]

That comes up every time a minimum wage raise comes up. It never happens. It really is not a lot of money per day. Works out to about $2.30 a day for a minimum wage earner full-time.

Every time raising the minimum wage comes up we hear about how many people will be laid off. Thing is, not many businesses are in the habit of carrying extra staff they can just lay off.

Say you are a small business that sells bread. You have 10 staff that work 40 hours a week, you are open 7 days a week. Staff members make an average of $18 an hour. Labour costs for the year are $374,400

Your building lease is $3,400 a month, or $40,800 for the year.

Utility and other expenses are $20,000 for the year.

Total yearly expenses are $435,200, or $36,266 a month.

To stay competitive you have market prices are your bread and bring in $540,000 a year in revenue by selling 90,000 loaves of bread. After paying expenses ($435,200) and yourself ($70,000), there is $34,800 leftover for business improvements such as marketing, new equipment, etc.

Now you need to pay each staff member 5 sick days a year. A sick day needs to be covered by another worker, so you are still paying for labour that day and now an employee that isn't providing you any tangible value for the days they are sick. at $18 an hour, for 10 employees, that works out to $7,200 a year, or 20% of the gross revenue. So the price of bread goes up by .08 cents each to cover the costs. Its not huge, but add up all the other increases and that is what we are seeing.

[butcher99]

That comes up every time a minimum wage raise comes up. It never happens. It really is not a lot of money per day. Works out to about $2.30 a day for a minimum wage earner full-time.

Every time raising the minimum wage comes up we hear about how many people will be laid off. Thing is, not many businesses are in the habit of carrying extra staff they can just lay off.

Say you are a small business that sells bread. You have 10 staff that work 40 hours a week, you are open 7 days a week. Staff members make an average of $18 an hour. Labour costs for the year are $374,400

Your building lease is $3,400 a month, or $40,800 for the year.

Utility and other expenses are $20,000 for the year.

Total yearly expenses are $435,200, or $36,266 a month.

To stay competitive you have market prices are your bread and bring in $540,000 a year in revenue by selling 90,000 loaves of bread. After paying expenses ($435,200) and yourself ($70,000), there is $34,800 leftover for business improvements such as marketing, new equipment, etc.

Now you need to pay each staff member 5 sick days a year. A sick day needs to be covered by another worker, so you are still paying for labour that day and now an employee that isn't providing you any tangible value for the days they are sick. at $18 an hour, for 10 employees, that works out to $7,200 a year, or 20% of the gross revenue. So the price of bread goes up by .08 cents each to cover the costs. Its not huge, but add up all the other increases and that is what we are seeing.

If $7200 a year more is making you go broke you were going broke anyway. Put the price of a loaf of bread up 1/100th of a cent and it is more than paid for.

Your argument here is that they should come in sick?

You have 10 employees only making 90,000 loaves of bread? I think you are missing at least a zero there.
You need to look at your hiring practices or better yet your management. I could bake my 10% of that and never leave my kitchen.
I can see why you are not in the bread baking business. That is only 180 loaves of bread per employee. Per week.

[Sparki55]

If $7200 a year more is making you go broke you were going broke anyway. Put the price of a loaf of bread up 1/100th of a cent and it is more than paid for.

Actually, it was 0.08 cents in my example.

Your argument here is that they should come in sick?

Nope, but that is what your union preaches by rewarding people $$$ for not taking sick days.

You have 10 employees only making 90,000 loaves of bread? I think you are missing at least a zero there.
You need to look at your hiring practices or better yet your management. I could bake my 10% of that and never leave my kitchen.
I can see why you are not in the bread baking business. That is only 180 loaves of bread per employee. Per week.

I'm not in the bread-making business, it was a thought experiment. Feel free to share real numbers from somewhere then.

Its actually showing your side of the story making me agree that these sick days don't make a large impact.

[The Mask]

There are 260 working days in a year for a full time employee. If every employee took the max 5 days off in a year, that would amount to a 1.92% loss in productivity. If your margins are so slim that a possible 2% dip in productivity is going to put you under, then your business simply isn't sustainable in the first place.

As this is your business, the onus is on you to ensure it's operation. If an employee calls in sick, yeah you might need to get someone else to fill in. In which case you're paying time and a half, but you are still meeting your productivity, but at an expense equivalent to an extra half-day's pay (so 2.5 days if all 5 sick days were used, or 0.96% increased operating cost). Or as the responsible business owner, you pick up the extra slack yourself, or you have a manager step up to assist. (Managers are exempt from OT pay).
So that's a possible max 1% increase in operating expense, or a possible max 2% loss in productivity. Hardly the death knell people are presenting. If that amount of productivity is so essential that your business depends on it, then I sure hope you are giving out pay raises and benefits. An unhappy employee who decides to leave for a better opportunity is going to cripple your entire business.

It's important to note that there are many other countries in the world which have a less than 40 hour working week. They find that they get more productivity out of their employees during the scheduled work hours, as the employees overall are happier, and have a better work life balance. Other countries manage to pay significantly better too. a McDonalds in Denmark pays their employees significantly more than one here, yet their food is still priced comparably. This is because prices are based on market rates, not expenses. If expenses exceed rates, a business cannot operate. If there are fewer businesses providing supply, then the increased demand will enable prices to rise, which will make that business profitable (but not necessarily 10 different flower shops for a small town). It's pretty basic economics.
Lately because of labour shortages, we've seen fast food restaurants and other workplaces which have previously only offered the bare minimum they could legally get away with paying people up to $20 an hour. This means they were always capable of doing this before, but used lax regulations to gain more exploitation out of their workers for the least possible compensation. This will always continue to happen. And over the past several decades, the total amount of productivity that has been generated has far outpaced the increase in wage/salary. So where is that money going? Well it's probably not a mystery of how the wealth gap continues to increase.

So many of the same arguments I'm seeing here are the same things we hear every year about raising minimum wage. About giving breaks, bathroom time, vacation, appropriate working hours, weekends, child labour. If we took the businesses at their word and never made laws based around human wellbeing but rather simply permitted the worst types of abuses we've otherwise worked to eliminate - then we would likely see businesses operating paying almost nothing or rather company credits/Scrip, where your only choice is to live in company controlled housing, and you and your children work 12+ hours a day without weekends. It sounds awfully familiar...

I think if you rely on humans to provide labour, then you need to treat them as humans, and recognize human needs. If you can't do that, then maybe try again when robots are better.

[TheBanHammer]

Wow 5 paid days off to go skiing just another nail in the small business coffin thanks ndp

Maybe its high time that small businesses find a new way to support themselves and not sustain themselves off of the Liberal party subsidies. Just pass the costs to the consumers and not off of hard-working people's backs.

What??? Every small business owner I know has started with what they have managed to save for years and a bank loan and do not have any government subsidy. One had a rebate from Fortis for upgrading their building Since they started they have had their insurance go through the roof, the cost of medical for BC residents passed on to them, the minimum wage pushed on to them and now sick days all courtesy of the liberals. I always see this"if they can't handle it they shouldn't be in business". Talk about having zero knowledge about business, how about if you don't like what they offer don't work there? Pretty simple, no one is forced to work anywhere! Government has no business dictating a businesses policy. Most new start ups take a couple of years before they turn a profit and get up and running. All this will do is kill small business. I love how those who never take any risk and spend a life time never employing one single person like to tell entrepreneurs how their business should run. Yes so awesome when you get a loan for tens of thousands and in your first year or two the government slaps mandatory policies on you especially during a pandemic and persistent inflation that add a few thousand during the period where you are barely breaking even.You could say then they shouldn't start a business if they can't afford it but then the same could be said for anyone continuing their education. I guess they have no business getting a student loan. Yes some companies can afford it but it is the wrong time for small businesses trying to get off the ground. Sick days should be something that an employee becomes eligible for after demonstrating the habit of showing up for work consistently and on time. The last few years I have worked with some of the laziest people I have ever met and the attitude that just showing up should get them high praise and top wages. Unless you are someone employing people and providing all the things you believe they should receive, all you contribute is an opinion which requires no risk, no capital, no guts and no effort.