Electric Vehicles

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Jlabute
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by Jlabute »

foenix wrote: Jan 13th, 2022, 12:56 pm
Jlabute wrote: Jan 11th, 2022, 5:29 pm The batteries can get safer, more energy dense, lighter, but it is extremely difficult to make chemical batteries charge faster. With the GM pickup truck 200kWh battery takes proportionately longer. The same battery delivers fewer miles in the hummer
That's not what GM is saying......
Here's the neat trick: On some Ultium vehicles, such as the Hummer, the top and bottom layers can be temporarily switched from a parallel to a series connection, doubling the voltage to 800. This lets it take full advantage of the highest-output 800-volt Electrify America fast-charging stations. Fittingly, the Hummer's ability to charge at 350 kilowatts means it can draw electricity quicker than any EV on the market today. By switching the pack from 400 to 800 volts for fast-charging, GM avoids paying for the more expensive componentry that's required for an EV to operate at the higher voltage all the time, as the Porsche Taycan does. The Taycan is currently the only EV out there that's capable of charging at 800 volts, albeit at a lower 270-kW peak.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... ic-future/
Yup, hey, if you have high-power mechanical or solid state relays, then you can switch cells between series or parallel charging. Obviously this adds more to the cost of the battery. This can perhaps 1/2 your charge time. I would think very few vehicles now do this, and the charger (350KW) will be pricey. You wouldn't be able to charge at 350KW from home.

So now what? Replace all existing chargers again? All the worlds infrastructure. This will only be done from commercial stations in the future.

The problem with EV, is that we are waiting for so many different improvements, which in the end will result in so many different new requirements. Despite series to parallel charging option, most vehicles and chargers do not support this, meaning everything is currently obsolete? Hydrogen (or gas) will still be faster to refill and provide more range for the proportional time refilling. Hydrogen and diesel will likely dominate semi trucks and trains as they do now, and in the future.

We are still waiting for a better catalyst too. Once that happens, fuel cells can be built that'll last longer, and be less costly.
So much waste. Fuel cells are not perfect either.

At least you can be happy with your extra expensive Porsche EV that can charge twice as fast at a commercial charger but still take longer to fill than everything else. I'm not saying EVs are a pile of crap... they sure are close to be adopted by more people. They are not there for me though. So I hope you get a lot of practical use from your hummer and porsche as your save the world.
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by I Think »

nepal wrote: Jan 10th, 2022, 7:51 am .
I saw a popular EV on a tow truck the other day, looked like maybe being taken to somewhere to charge the battery. Cold weather sucks the charge out of batteries. I’d feel very uneasy taking an EV during winter to anywhere away from town. I’d hate to be on the Connector, stranded in snow, and watching my battery die as I froze inside the car, fretting about how (no cell coverage) and the cost to get it towed into town.
Google ‘EV dead battery cold weather’ …a bit scary, (one EV company apparently muzzles its car owners from posting negative comments about their car)

Yes, a gas car could run out of gas away from town, but it would keep you warm by running it periodically and someone can bring or share enough gas to get back.

Hybrids are best of both worlds imo.
.
Cold temperatures do not "suck the power out of the batteries" They do however not perform as well when cold, many battery packs have cell heaters built in.
A few days ago I posted a youtube video about a chap who tested his Teslas for cold weather traffic jam ability to keep it's passengers warm. He set the interior thermostat to 70 deg F with the seat warmer on, and his estimate is that a fully charged Tesla would keep its passengers warm for as much as 36 hours in temps of -12 deg C. especially if thermostat was set lower, the seat warmer would keep the driver warm even with a low thermostat setting.
I agree that hybrids are a pretty good solution, but are a stop gap measure.
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spooker
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by spooker »

I loved the headline on this article ...

"I bought an electric Hyundai Ioniq 5, then swiftly “ruined” a family road trip"

https://thedriven.io/2022/01/10/i-bough ... road-trip/
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GordonH
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by GordonH »

spooker wrote: Jan 13th, 2022, 6:05 pm I loved the headline on this article ...

"I bought an electric Hyundai Ioniq 5, then swiftly “ruined” a family road trip"

https://thedriven.io/2022/01/10/i-bough ... road-trip/
Here is a Hyundai I could be interested in, well until something better then fuel cell comes along.
https://www.hyundaicanada.com/en/vehicles/2022-nexo
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bb49
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by bb49 »

Be careful with your Tesla.

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/ ... -25-teslas
Teenager says he remotely hacked into more than 25 Teslas
The 19-year old security researcher said the software flaw he exploited was not within Tesla’s software or infrastructure.


This kid has a future. One of the car manufacturers will be making him an offer he can't refuse.
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JagXKR
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by JagXKR »

GordonH wrote: Jan 13th, 2022, 6:17 pm Here is a Hyundai I could be interested in, well until something better then fuel cell comes along.
https://www.hyundaicanada.com/en/vehicles/2022-nexo
This is the real future. Hydrogen is what we will use in 20-30 years.
The tech is far from finished and is not easy, but it will be worth it. :up:
I have investments in Hydrogen fuel cell tech. I would never invest in golf carts. :biggrin:
Why use a big word when a diminutive one will suffice.
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Jlabute
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by Jlabute »

New charging VA rates, now all the existing equipment will be wasted.
Also, my understanding is a number of existing two station chargers, the ones labelled A and B, provide full charging rate to one station only. Once another vehicle is sharing the station then the charge rate is halved. (According to the Tesla club president in BC). Which is not great when you pay per minute. The current infrastructure is lacking and needs to be replaced, again. All this manufacturing is killing the earth. Soon there will be a tsunami of dead batteries and the energy in to recycling them will require fossil fuels or another SiteC.
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by captkirkcanada »

bb49 wrote: Jan 13th, 2022, 8:55 pm Be careful with your Tesla.

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/ ... -25-teslas
Teenager says he remotely hacked into more than 25 Teslas
The 19-year old security researcher said the software flaw he exploited was not within Tesla’s software or infrastructure.


This kid has a future. One of the car manufacturers will be making him an offer he can't refuse.
why? all the kid can do is be annoying. i would be more concerned with this.

In 2019, there were almost 190,000 vehicle fires in the US alone—only a tiny fraction of them involving EVs.

“From 2012 to 2020, there has been approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 205 million miles traveled,” Tesla tells us. “By comparison, data from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and US Department of Transportation show that, in the US, there is one vehicle fire for every 19 million miles traveled.”

“In order to provide an apt comparison to NFPA data, Tesla’s data set includes instances of vehicle fires caused by structure fires, arson and other reasons unrelated to the vehicle, which account for some of the Tesla vehicle fires over this time period.”

https://insideevs.com/news/528123/tesla ... s-gas-car/
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Jlabute
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by Jlabute »

captkirkcanada wrote: Jan 14th, 2022, 7:09 am
bb49 wrote: Jan 13th, 2022, 8:55 pm Be careful with your Tesla.

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/ ... -25-teslas
Teenager says he remotely hacked into more than 25 Teslas
The 19-year old security researcher said the software flaw he exploited was not within Tesla’s software or infrastructure.


This kid has a future. One of the car manufacturers will be making him an offer he can't refuse.
why? all the kid can do is be annoying. i would be more concerned with this.

In 2019, there were almost 190,000 vehicle fires in the US alone—only a tiny fraction of them involving EVs.

“From 2012 to 2020, there has been approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 205 million miles traveled,” Tesla tells us. “By comparison, data from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and US Department of Transportation show that, in the US, there is one vehicle fire for every 19 million miles traveled.”

“In order to provide an apt comparison to NFPA data, Tesla’s data set includes instances of vehicle fires caused by structure fires, arson and other reasons unrelated to the vehicle, which account for some of the Tesla vehicle fires over this time period.”

https://insideevs.com/news/528123/tesla ... s-gas-car/
Look out for Tesla drivers, they are all sleeping. There are lots of videos like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhObsMnipS8
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by I Think »

Jlabute wrote: Jan 14th, 2022, 7:00 am Soon there will be a tsunami of dead batteries and the energy in to recycling them will require fossil fuels or another SiteC.
There is a very strong demand for EV batteries that have lost some of their range, these batteries are selling on Ebay and other sites very quickly.
For example:
A ten year old Nissan Leaf Car Battery rated at 65% of original capacity markets for between $4,000 to $6,000 USD plus freight.
Companies such as JAG, are buying battery packs out of medical equipment, modems, Power supplies, and re-selling them for power walls, ebike batteries etc., lots of these batteries have never been cycled (read New).
I purchased a Nissan Leaf Battery and am using part of it to power a yard machine to very good effect, and plan on using more parts of it for other purposes comes the spring.
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Jlabute
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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I Think wrote: Jan 14th, 2022, 1:43 pm
Jlabute wrote: Jan 14th, 2022, 7:00 am Soon there will be a tsunami of dead batteries and the energy in to recycling them will require fossil fuels or another SiteC.
There is a very strong demand for EV batteries that have lost some of their range, these batteries are selling on Ebay and other sites very quickly.
For example:
A ten year old Nissan Leaf Car Battery rated at 65% of original capacity markets for between $4,000 to $6,000 USD plus freight.
Companies such as JAG, are buying battery packs out of medical equipment, modems, Power supplies, and re-selling them for power walls, ebike batteries etc., lots of these batteries have never been cycled (read New).
I purchased a Nissan Leaf Battery and am using part of it to power a yard machine to very good effect, and plan on using more parts of it for other purposes comes the spring.
Over time, batteries get worse if not used. Batteries can form an oxide layer or degrade a few percent per year. Perhaps there can be some utility in old batteries but they are likely over-valued. My anonymous 'yard machines' either use a tiny bit of grid energy, or a tiny bit of gasoline for their entire life. Spending more than $20 on them over the next 20 years would be wasteful.

Saying that, 141,000 bolts had their batteries recalled, and people playing with Li-ion brings back memories of people making their own vape devices and having them blow up in their face. People have had cell phones blow too.

The 'strong demand' is exaggerated. Would I buy an e-bike with a decrepit battery? Not if I knew it. E-Bikes are way over priced as they are. The whole electric generation is a forced false economy to begin with. Billions have been wasted on bad batteries. Would be horrible to buy dangerous batteries for any price.

A lot like gas vehicles, range tends to be exaggerated. Utility is much reduced with a used battery and there are no regulations or methods to determine the exact health of a battery. $4000US to $6000US for 65% of a 24kWh battery (15.6kWh) is not a deal I would make for any reason... especially from eBay.

My brother made his own solar panels. Bought an inexpensive inverter. Tried to run a small lawn care machine and blew up his inverter. lol.
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by I Think »

Jlabute wrote: Jan 15th, 2022, 10:08 am
I Think wrote: Jan 14th, 2022, 1:43 pm

There is a very strong demand for EV batteries that have lost some of their range, these batteries are selling on Ebay and other sites very quickly.
Over time, batteries get worse if not used. Batteries can form an oxide layer or degrade a few percent per year. Perhaps there can be some utility in old batteries but they are likely over-valued. My anonymous 'yard machines' either use a tiny bit of grid energy, or a tiny bit of gasoline for their entire life. Spending more than $20 on them over the next 20 years would be wasteful.

The 'strong demand' is exaggerated.

A lot like gas vehicles, range tends to be exaggerated. Utility is much reduced with a used battery and there are no regulations or methods to determine the exact health of a battery. $4000US to $6000US for 65% of a 24kWh battery (15.6kWh) is not a deal I would make for any reason... especially from eBay.
It's a good thing your weren't alive to talk the Wright Brothers out of their heavier than air machine.
Leaf batteries are 40KW.
The yard machine I use has more power than a 20 hp riding mower, there are a few posters here that have seen it and even one poster whose son got to drive it. It was powered completely for a couple of years by a solar panel mounted as a roof over the seat, Unfortunately the panel could not survive the jarring ride.
Now with the Lithium battery testing would indicate that it has a range of around 18km between charges, a silly distance for a yard machine.
There are lots of sites offering used and new cells, building a battery is not difficult but you must follow the rules

Sites like
https://secondlifestorage.com/index.php
https://jag35.com/collections/lithium-batteries
https://www.batteryclearinghouse.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIAMUnVxbq4
https://www.youtube.com/c/WillProwse

But of course you are not interested in learning, just sticking to luddite talking points, so sorry.
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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by captkirkcanada »

I Think wrote: Jan 15th, 2022, 4:26 pm
Jlabute wrote: Jan 15th, 2022, 10:08 am

Over time, batteries get worse if not used. Batteries can form an oxide layer or degrade a few percent per year. Perhaps there can be some utility in old batteries but they are likely over-valued. My anonymous 'yard machines' either use a tiny bit of grid energy, or a tiny bit of gasoline for their entire life. Spending more than $20 on them over the next 20 years would be wasteful.

The 'strong demand' is exaggerated.

A lot like gas vehicles, range tends to be exaggerated. Utility is much reduced with a used battery and there are no regulations or methods to determine the exact health of a battery. $4000US to $6000US for 65% of a 24kWh battery (15.6kWh) is not a deal I would make for any reason... especially from eBay.
It's a good thing your weren't alive to talk the Wright Brothers out of their heavier than air machine.
Leaf batteries are 40KW.
The yard machine I use has more power than a 20 hp riding mower, there are a few posters here that have seen it and even one poster whose son got to drive it. It was powered completely for a couple of years by a solar panel mounted as a roof over the seat, Unfortunately the panel could not survive the jarring ride.
Now with the Lithium battery testing would indicate that it has a range of around 18km between charges, a silly distance for a yard machine.
There are lots of sites offering used and new cells, building a battery is not difficult but you must follow the rules

Sites like
https://secondlifestorage.com/index.php
https://jag35.com/collections/lithium-batteries
https://www.batteryclearinghouse.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIAMUnVxbq4
https://www.youtube.com/c/WillProwse

But of course you are not interested in learning, just sticking to luddite talking points, so sorry.

The University of Michigan Chemical Sciences and Engineering team, led by Professor Nicholas Kotov, has developed a “new biologically inspired battery membrane” with recycled Kevlar fibers that could quintuple electric vehicle ranges and have a lifespan of 1,000 cycles.

The Ann Arbor, Michigan research facility is one of the best in the world, and Kotov, whose research focuses on the development of biomimetic nanocomposites, the self-assembly of nanoparticles, and chiral nanostructures, has worked to change the narrative on lithium-sulfur cells. “There are a number of reports claiming several hundred cycles for lithium-sulfur batteries, but it is achieved at the expense of other parameters—capacity, charging rate, resilience, and safety,” Kotov said in a press release from the University. “The challenge nowadays is to make a battery that increases the cycling rate from the former 10 cycles to hundreds of cycles and satisfies multiple other requirements including cost.”

Lithium-sulfur batteries can enable five times the capacity of standard lithium-ion cells, which are used in electric vehicles. However, as Professor Kotov mentioned in his quote, the lifespan is significantly decreased due to chemical reactions between molecules. The most common reason for reduced life cycles in lithium-sulfur batteries is dendrites, which are appendages that are designed to receive communications from other cells. These can pierce the membrane of cells, reducing the life span and thus the life cycle of a battery cell.
Achieving record levels for multiple parameters for multiple materials properties is what is needed now for car batteries,” Kotov stated. Kotov added that the design of the lithium-sulfur batteries is “nearly perfect” due to its capacity and efficiency reaching theoretical limits. It can also behave more resiliently than lithium-ion cells in warm and cold weather climates, which both have effects on range and efficiency. However, fast charging could reduce the number of lifespans, Kotov added.
https://www.teslarati.com/lithium-sulfu ... -research/

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Re: Electric Vehicles

Post by I Think »

ICE engines probably are the pinnacle of consumer engineering, the amount of engineering is staggering, the drive to improve ICE engines has lead to fantastic developments in manufacturing, in tooling and designs for production.

EV's are much simpler and of course require much less maintenance, their simplicity is leading to a rapid reduction in costs as the market scales up. The two main areas of development for EV's are self driving, and battery cost/range.
The self driving aspect is largely software development, and we can expect that Moore's law will be the major driver with the related hardware.

I think we can anticipate incremental improvements with battery chemistry, charging rates are already largely grid related, range will increase as new chemistries are developed, and costs will continue to fall as production scales up.

As with lead/acid batteries, the materials in Lithium batteries are not consumed, and as recycling scales up the cost of lithium, cobalt, nickel etc will drop as the recovered materials impact the market. Second life battery use will increase until it hits the saturation point, then as second life batteries begin to enter the recycling chain, their materials will begin to push battery costs further downward.

The Nay Sayers, and Luddites with their strongly held, uninformed opinions, remain an ever shrinking group, just as the people who used to decry solar, wind & batteries are now seen as p**'ing into the wind.
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Jlabute
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Re: Electric Vehicles

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I Think wrote: Jan 16th, 2022, 8:34 am ICE engines probably are the pinnacle of consumer engineering, the amount of engineering is staggering, the drive to improve ICE engines has lead to fantastic developments in manufacturing, in tooling and designs for production.

EV's are much simpler and of course require much less maintenance, their simplicity is leading to a rapid reduction in costs as the market scales up. The two main areas of development for EV's are self driving, and battery cost/range.
The self driving aspect is largely software development, and we can expect that Moore's law will be the major driver with the related hardware.

I think we can anticipate incremental improvements with battery chemistry, charging rates are already largely grid related, range will increase as new chemistries are developed, and costs will continue to fall as production scales up.

As with lead/acid batteries, the materials in Lithium batteries are not consumed, and as recycling scales up the cost of lithium, cobalt, nickel etc will drop as the recovered materials impact the market. Second life battery use will increase until it hits the saturation point, then as second life batteries begin to enter the recycling chain, their materials will begin to push battery costs further downward.

The Nay Sayers, and Luddites with their strongly held, uninformed opinions, remain an ever shrinking group, just as the people who used to decry solar, wind & batteries are now seen as p**'ing into the wind.
Absolutely. The ICE engine is not close to done. Mazda, Toyota, and other motor companies are still making advancements in fossil fuel engine technology. They know ICE engines will be around for at least another 60 years or so, at least.

Self-driving has nothing to do with the type of engine. It is a major selling point for EV since they need as many selling points as possible. Self-driving is something that every car would have had by now according to progressives. They said this back in 2015. Progressives tend to be horrible at understanding science, technology, and engineering. Self-driving vehicles require not just firmware/software, but also complicated hardware sensors such as RADAR, LiDAR, ultrasonic transducers, and image sensors. Lots of sensors with a complicated neural network and these vehicle tests still end up killing people. The complexity is difficult to troubleshoot and understand why someone walking a bike across a street deserves to be run over. Mix this with reflections, weather, etc, and there are numerous ways these simple sensors can be fooled. This will be incrementally improving until we really have SAFE self-driving vehicles... maybe around 2040 or later. Taking away the steering wheel in all weather conditions is a tough engineering problem. The amount of engineering still required is staggering.

The people who promote solar and wind and batteries are mostly the same people who decry nuclear, the cleanest and safest of all energy sources. Wind and solar are promoted by those who hate the earth and want to pollute as much land and ocean as possible. Those who want an exclusive solar and wind future are sucking the world dry of resources and rare metals in order to create a speck of energy for a communistic dystopia starved of energy and bare shelves. Nuclear will be the future. Solar and wind only have a narrow window of opportunity and are a waste of money and resources for what they accomplish. Without subsidies and unethical contracts, these energy companies would fold, as many have. The desire for renewables is highly overestimated and pushed by virtue signaling. Canada is committed to bringing SMR to bear and when they are available, they will produce 100 times more energy in 1000 times less real-estate.
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