Diabetes

[hozzle]

Sorry, can't agree that PUFA are all bad. Humans evolved eating nuts, fish, eggs, poultry, leafy greens, sunflower seeds, olives, flax, and other seeds, all of which have PUFAs in them.
"Polyunsaturated fat is found in plant and animal foods, such as salmon, avocado, and some nuts and seeds. Eating moderate amounts of polyunsaturated (and monounsaturated) fat can benefit your health.
And those Inuit, what were they eating? "seal blubber is an excellent source of long- and very long-chain (VLC) n − 3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs), in addition to long- and VLC monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFAs)."

Polyunsaturated fat is different than saturated fat and trans fat.
HOW POLYUNSATURATED FATS AFFECT YOUR HEALTH

Polyunsaturated fats can help lower your LDL (bad) cholesterol. Cholesterol is a soft, waxy substance that can cause clogged or blocked arteries (blood vessels). Having low LDL cholesterol reduces your risk for heart disease.

Polyunsaturated fats include omega-3 and omega-6 fats. These are essential fatty acids that the body needs for brain function and cell growth. Our bodies do not make essential fatty acids, so you can only get them from food.

Omega-3 fatty acids are good for your heart in several ways. They help:

Reduce triglycerides, a type of fat in your blood
Reduce the risk of developing an irregular heartbeat (arrhythmia)
Slow the buildup of plaque, a substance comprising fat, cholesterol, and calcium, which can harden and clog your arteries
Slightly lower your blood pressure
Omega-6 fatty acids may help:
Control your blood sugar.

Your body needs some fat for energy and other functions. Polyunsaturated fats are a healthy choice.. This includes monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats.

Eating healthier fats can lead to certain health benefits. But eating too much fat can lead to weight gain. All fats contain 9 calories per gram, tho clearly it's the total calories in balance, proteins, carbs, fat, all count as calories.

I

So based on the above^^^

are you still experimenting?

Lately I have been experimenting with higher carb diet,

Just curious.

[Grandan]

One thing needs to be made clear, polyunsaturated fat is not that good for you. Humans evolved eating saturated fat, not a manufactured seed oil such as crisco. They drank full fat milk from grass fed animals.

Sorry, can't agree that PUFA are all bad. Humans evolved eating nuts, fish, eggs, poultry, leafy greens, sunflower seeds, olives, flax, and other seeds, all of which have PUFAs in them.
"Polyunsaturated fat is found in plant and animal foods, such as salmon, avocado, and some nuts and seeds. Eating moderate amounts of polyunsaturated (and monounsaturated) fat can benefit your health.
And those Inuit, what were they eating? "seal blubber is an excellent source of long- and very long-chain (VLC) n − 3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs), in addition to long- and VLC monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFAs)."

Polyunsaturated fat is different than saturated fat and trans fat.
HOW POLYUNSATURATED FATS AFFECT YOUR HEALTH

Polyunsaturated fats can help lower your LDL (bad) cholesterol. Cholesterol is a soft, waxy substance that can cause clogged or blocked arteries (blood vessels). Having low LDL cholesterol reduces your risk for heart disease.

Polyunsaturated fats include omega-3 and omega-6 fats. These are essential fatty acids that the body needs for brain function and cell growth. Our bodies do not make essential fatty acids, so you can only get them from food.

Omega-3 fatty acids are good for your heart in several ways. They help:

Reduce triglycerides, a type of fat in your blood
Reduce the risk of developing an irregular heartbeat (arrhythmia)
Slow the buildup of plaque, a substance comprising fat, cholesterol, and calcium, which can harden and clog your arteries
Slightly lower your blood pressure
Omega-6 fatty acids may help:
Control your blood sugar.

Your body needs some fat for energy and other functions. Polyunsaturated fats are a healthy choice.. This includes monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats.

Eating healthier fats can lead to certain health benefits. But eating too much fat can lead to weight gain. All fats contain 9 calories per gram, tho clearly it's the total calories in balance, proteins, carbs, fat, all count as calories.

I

I’m referring to manufactured seed oils such as Crisco.
Your information about saturated fat leading to weight gain is wrong, you haven’t read the articles I sent previously so I assume you are fixated on the old school ideas about fat in our diet. It is sugar and carbohydrates that cause weight gain not fat, fat satisfies and causes you to eat less. Any food that drives up your insulin will cause you to produce triglycerides to store.
Read Robert Lustig or watch any of his videos where he talks about not all calories are the same.
You can pick up a copy of Jason Fung the Obesity Code at Value Village for a few dollars.
There are unfortunately a lot of opposing views out there but if you dig a bit you will find a lot of good information.
I don’t disagree about Omega 3, it is a good fat. Omega 6 not so much you need far less.
I’ve made my case previously about the Inuit, seems you’ve forgotten that.
You can’t go wrong getting your fats from whole foods such as nuts but thinking you can consume large amounts of seed oils is flawed.

[Silverstarqueen]

What Dr. Fung says is what I have said " Polyunsaterated fats are necessary, omega-6 and omega-3, found in fatty fish, nuts, and seeds."
If saturated fats did not lead to weight gain, why are so many people on carnivor/keto diets needing to do repeated fasting, as suggested by Dr. Fung? Clearly these people could just stay on their keto diet, eat only saturated fat if they wanted(which is fine), and lose weight. But as Dr. Fung points out "Even people eating low carbohydrate diets eventually reach a plateau, and regain". Thus enters his recommendation to use fasting, anywhere from 12 hours to days of fasting to lose weight. Okay, well, this does tend to limit the amount of saturated fat, and everything else, that a person could eat, and this causes a caloric deficit, doesn 't it? How can it not? If someone doesn't eat for three to five days, they are going to enter a state of caloric deficit and therefore burn body fat. It's a great solution, but it is what it is. He is not suggesting that people should then eat five times as much when the fast is done, just because they fasted for five days. That person has essentially drastically cut their saturated fat consumption, their polyunsaturated fats too, proteins, and of course carbs are often low anyway. As Dr. Fung points out, just cutting back on calories doesn't work, people have to stop eating altogether , and if they eat after a day or five, they will have to stop eating again, next week, and again. Just stopping once and then going back to eating normally, will eventually lead to weight gain.

[Silverstarqueen]

What Dr. Fung says is what I have said " Polyunsaterated fats are necessary, omega-6 and omega-3, found in fatty fish, nuts, and seeds."
Dr. Fung also claims, he's had many patients who still had high blood sugars even tho they limited their carbohydrate intake.
He says that protein "especially from animal sources" raises insulin.His solution is not then to eat a lot of saturated fat, but to just "stop eating" periodically. So he's saying keto diet is fine, but stop eating is far better.

If saturated fats did not lead to weight gain, why are so many people on carnivor/keto diets needing to do repeated fasting, as suggested by Dr. Fung? Clearly these people could just stay on their keto diet, eat only saturated fat if they wanted(which is fine), and lose weight. But as Dr. Fung points out "Even people eating low carbohydrate diets eventually reach a plateau, and regain". Thus enters his recommendation to use fasting, anywhere from 12 hours(not very effective) to days of fasting to drop insulin and lose weight. Okay, well, this does tend to limit the amount of saturated fat, and everything else, that a person could eat, and this causes a caloric deficit, doesn 't it? How can it not? If someone doesn't eat for three to five days, they are going to enter a state of caloric deficit and therefore burn body fat. It's a great solution, but it is what it is. He is not suggesting that people should then eat five times as much when the fast is done, just because they fasted for five days. That person has essentially drastically cut their saturated fat consumption, their polyunsaturated fats too, proteins, and of course carbs are often low anyway. As Dr. Fung points out, just cutting back on calories doesn't work, people have to stop eating altogether , and if they eat after a day or five, they will have to stop eating again, next week, and again. Just stopping once and then going back to eating normally, will eventually lead to weight gain.

[Grandan]

What Dr. Fung says is what I have said " Polyunsaterated fats are necessary, omega-6 and omega-3, found in fatty fish, nuts, and seeds."
If saturated fats did not lead to weight gain, why are so many people on carnivor/keto diets needing to do repeated fasting, as suggested by Dr. Fung? Clearly these people could just stay on their keto diet, eat only saturated fat if they wanted(which is fine), and lose weight. But as Dr. Fung points out "Even people eating low carbohydrate diets eventually reach a plateau, and regain". Thus enters his recommendation to use fasting, anywhere from 12 hours to days of fasting to lose weight. Okay, well, this does tend to limit the amount of saturated fat, and everything else, that a person could eat, and this causes a caloric deficit, doesn 't it? How can it not? If someone doesn't eat for three to five days, they are going to enter a state of caloric deficit and therefore burn body fat. It's a great solution, but it is what it is. He is not suggesting that people should then eat five times as much when the fast is done, just because they fasted for five days. That person has essentially drastically cut their saturated fat consumption, their polyunsaturated fats too, proteins, and of course carbs are often low anyway. As Dr. Fung points out, just cutting back on calories doesn't work, people have to stop eating altogether , and if they eat after a day or five, they will have to stop eating again, next week, and again. Just stopping once and then going back to eating normally, will eventually lead to weight gain.

Weight loss to get to a normal weight is not the the same as maintenance at a normal weight. Fasting is one way to lose weight but Fung would never recommend that an underweight person should fast beyond an intermittent fast ie 12 to 16 hours maybe 24 if that person wanted to enter autophagy.
If you still have excess body fat there really is no need to worry that you would be in a caloric deficit when fasting.
Overeating after a fast is never recommended by Fung or anyone else that I have ever heard of.
To understand starvation, one needs to read the Minnesota Starvation Experiment:

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2013/10/hunger

The research protocol called for the men to lose 25 percent of their normal body weight. They spent the first three months of the study eating a normal diet of 3,200 calories a day, followed by six months of semi-starvation at 1,570 calories a day (divided between breakfast and lunch), then a restricted rehabilitation period of three months eating 2,000 to 3,200 calories a day, and finally an eight-week unrestricted rehabilitation period during which there were no limits on caloric intake. Their diet consisted of foods widely available in Europe during the war, mostly potatoes, root vegetables, bread and macaroni. The men were required to work 15 hours per week in the lab, walk 22 miles per week and participate in a variety of educational activities for 25 hours a week. Throughout the experiment, the researchers measured the physiological and psychological changes brought on by near starvation.
During the semi-starvation phase the changes were dramatic. Beyond the gaunt appearance of the men, there were significant decreases in their strength and stamina, body temperature, heart rate and sex drive. The psychological effects were significant as well. Hunger made the men obsessed with food. They would dream and fantasize about food, read and talk about food and savor the two meals a day they were given. They reported fatigue, irritability, depression and apathy. Interestingly, the men also reported decreases in mental ability, although mental testing of the men did not support this belief.

The human body is as you point out very adaptable to a wide range of foods but the big question is what are the best foods for for good health and longevity. Further when eating a proper human diet do they achieve a stable weight free of disease?
There are hundreds of books written on diet but finding ones with the best information is a task.
We know that having fat packed in your liver and around the internal organs is not good. That is a direct result of poor dietary choices. You can can be thin on the outside and still have this same adipose fat. There is a term for this, TOFI, thin on the outside, fat on the inside. We know from studies that if you feed someone a drink of Coke while they are waiting for their food order they will eat more. Sugar does not satisfy.

[Silverstarqueen]

Dr. Fung is primarily concerned with people with type 2 diabetes, obesity or metabolic syndrome, so not sure why you are suddenly talking about whether underweight people should be fasting. The fact remains that fasting for anywhere between 1 and 7 or more days, is his solution for those with diabetes or metabolic syndreom, as opposed to "just eating less" chronically, but it does result in a calorie deficit, all the more, the longer someone fasts. Of course overweight people do not need to "worry" about a hypocaloric diet, since everyone recognizes that a calorie deficit is the best way to speed up weight loss, Dr. Fung achieves this with his clients with fasting. Dr. Fung says that "low calorie" diets (called "semi-starvation in your article), don't work well in the long run because they slow the metabolism, and then people usualy regain the weight when they stop the "semi-starvation" period.

At any rate, in other news, it turns out (to no one's surprise) that a healthy plant based diet (yes it includes foods which contain polyunsaturated fats, but Dr. Fung has not said these need to be avoided,) produces a healthier outcome (heart health, metabolic syndrome) than alternatives (unhealthy plant based diet, or animal based diet).
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27299701/

Combining a healthy plant based diet with or without periodic fasting would it seems, promote health for diabetics or those with metabolic syndrome.

[Grandan]

Dr. Fung is primarily concerned with people with type 2 diabetes, obesity or metabolic syndrome, so not sure why you are suddenly talking about whether underweight people should be fasting. The fact remains that fasting for anywhere between 1 and 7 or more days, is his solution for those with diabetes or metabolic syndreom, as opposed to "just eating less" chronically, but it does result in a calorie deficit, all the more, the longer someone fasts.

At any rate, in other news, it turns out (to no one's surprise) that a healthy plant based diet (yes it includes foods which contain polyunsaturated fats, but Dr. Fung has not said these need to be avoided,) produces a healthier outcome (heart health, metabolic syndrome) than alternatives (unhealthy plant based diet, or animal based diet).
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27299701/

Combining a healthy plant based diet with or without periodic fasting would it seems, promote health for diabetics or those with metabolic syndrome.

Dr Fung cautions underweight people against fasting other than intermittent fasting, ie. the 16 hr fast along with 8 hr eating window.
Dr Fung cautions against snacking throughout the day and late into the evening for the reason that every time you eat a snack, especially cookies, candy and muffins, it drives up your insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. It is the constant spiking of insulin that causes insulin resistance that in turn drives metabolic syndrome and it’s host of illnesses such as diabetes and heart disease. Dr Fung is a nephrologist, a kidney doctor, he deals with the end stages of diabetes when the kidney has failed. He has a complete understanding of what drives disease. He writes about the role of fat in our diet in his books, how it does not spike insulin. He does not cover all the facets of metabolic syndrome in one or another of his videos but if you get the series of three books and read through you will get a better understanding.
There is ongoing debate whether plant based diets are better. We do know that people living where they have access to seafood are healthier, think iodine deficiency, have better teeth and live longer with fewer health problems so I disagree that a vegetarian diet is best unless you are getting iodine and other trace minerals through seaweed and algae.
The SAD diet is high in foods that feature corn fed animals full of antibiotics so in that respect a diet of that type cannot be great.

[Grandan]

Here is a really good explanation of why some cooking oils despite their healthy sounding names, are really not so good for you.
https://youtu.be/pljQrjiDC9Q
Among other things they promote insulin resistance and elevated glucose levels. Ties right in to the Diabetes theme.
you have to watch to the end to see #1

[hozzle]

Here is a really good explanation of why some cooking oils despite their healthy sounding names, are really not so good for you.
https://youtu.be/pljQrjiDC9Q
Among other things they promote insulin resistance and elevated glucose levels. Ties right in to the Diabetes theme.
you have to watch to the end to see #1

Great link, thank you.
Simplified explanation of a very complex topic.

[Grandan]

Chris Knobbe explains vegetable seed oils in depth and links them to heart disease, stroke and diabetes.


If you want to dive a bit deeper into the problem foods, sugar, refined flour and vegetable seed oils, this interview with Dr Chris Knobbe and Ivor Cummins is an eye opener.

[Silverstarqueen]

Here is a really good explanation of why some cooking oils despite their healthy sounding names, are really not so good for you.
https://youtu.be/pljQrjiDC9Q
Among other things they promote insulin resistance and elevated glucose levels. Ties right in to the Diabetes theme.
you have to watch to the end to see #1

)
Actually, he said that many foods containing polyunsaturates are healthy and "essential", meaning you need them. You have skipped his essential point, it's the incorrect processing of the oils, and frying or overcooking that destroys the benefits!

Thankgod he's saying that avocado and extra virgin avocado oils, flaxseeds, and those seeds and nuts with omega-6 and omega-3 in them(notice these are polyunsaturates?) are very healthy as part of a healthy diet. They contain essential oils, needed to produce healthy cell membranes. They are plant based.Unfortunately he gets far too technical and most people are not going to spend 15 min. listening to technical discussions before they get to that point. His point is the wrong method used to process the oils and using them as cooking oils can destroy these wonderful benefits. And unfortunately his long technical discussion has also destroyed the message, that healthy foods can be turned into unhealthy foods by frying them at higher temperatures. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Incidentally extra virgin olive oil, also has benefits which can be destroyed if the oils are overprocessed or overheated.
Now I think I'll go enjoy my guacamole on rye , and free-range scrambled eggs.

[hozzle]

Here is a really good explanation of why some cooking oils despite their healthy sounding names, are really not so good for you.
https://youtu.be/pljQrjiDC9Q
Among other things they promote insulin resistance and elevated glucose levels. Ties right in to the Diabetes theme.
you have to watch to the end to see #1

)
Actually, he said that many foods containing polyunsaturates are healthy and "essential", meaning you need them. You have skipped his essential point, it's the incorrect processing of the oils, and frying or overcooking that destroys the benefits!

Thankgod he's saying that avocado and extra virgin avocado oils, flaxseeds, and those seeds and nuts with omega-6 and omega-3 in them(notice these are polyunsaturates?) are very healthy as part of a healthy diet. They contain essential oils, needed to produce healthy cell membranes. They are plant based.Unfortunately he gets far too technical and most people are not going to spend 15 min. listening to technical discussions before they get to that point. His point is the wrong method used to process the oils and using them as cooking oils can destroy these wonderful benefits. And unfortunately his long technical discussion has also destroyed the message, that healthy foods can be turned into unhealthy foods by frying them at higher temperatures. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Incidentally extra virgin olive oil, also has benefits which can be destroyed if the oils are overprocessed or overheated.
Now I think I'll go enjoy my guacamole on rye , and free-range scrambled eggs.

I'd rather believe the doctor than some unknown on a forum. Just sayin. Also I do not believe the original post missed any point, that is why he posted the video.

[Grandan]

Here is a really good explanation of why some cooking oils despite their healthy sounding names, are really not so good for you.
https://youtu.be/pljQrjiDC9Q
Among other things they promote insulin resistance and elevated glucose levels. Ties right in to the Diabetes theme.
you have to watch to the end to see #1

)
Actually, he said that many foods containing polyunsaturates are healthy and "essential", meaning you need them. You have skipped his essential point, it's the incorrect processing of the oils, and frying or overcooking that destroys the benefits!

Thankgod he's saying that avocado and extra virgin avocado oils, flaxseeds, and those seeds and nuts with omega-6 and omega-3 in them(notice these are polyunsaturates?) are very healthy as part of a healthy diet. They contain essential oils, needed to produce healthy cell membranes. They are plant based.Unfortunately he gets far too technical and most people are not going to spend 15 min. listening to technical discussions before they get to that point. His point is the wrong method used to process the oils and using them as cooking oils can destroy these wonderful benefits. And unfortunately his long technical discussion has also destroyed the message, that healthy foods can be turned into unhealthy foods by frying them. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Incidentally extra virgin olive oil, also has benefits which can be destroyed if the oils are overprocessed or overheated.
Now I think I'll go enjoy my guacamole on rye , and free-range scrambled eggs.

Yes you are right, people would rather turn a blind eye to the facts than to open them to the reality of the dangers of seed oils. They will happily spend that 15 minutes if not hours playing a video game eating their bag of nachos rather than watching a health video.
Dr Knobbe is an ophthalmologist, they are the first people to see the damage to blood vessels because they photograph the inside of the eye and can see the problems long before other doctors. People also are more aware of loss of eyesight long before they are aware of any other health problems.
If you follow the facts, the rise in consumption of seed oils correlates with the rise in disease. The amount of omega 3 in the diets of various indigenous people around the world has been carefully quantified and it is less than 2%. These are some of the healthiest people in the world.
The figures I recall is that the amount of seed oils based omega 6 in diets of Americans is around 10% and the United States is in a pandemic of metabolic syndrome. Omega 6 is not essential as a food, it is a signalling molecule. The sweet spot seems to be around 1.5%.
Knobbe and others are saying that once the omega 6 is exposed to air it begins to oxidize. When you heat the oils you destroy them. All the seed oils are manufactured in an industrial plant that repeated heats, chemically extracts, bleaches and refines that oil. It is one thing to eat sunflower seeds, quite another to extract the oils from the seeds and bottle them.
Soy oil is one of the most commonly used oil in deep frying and it is repeatedly heated and cooled creating a dangerous chemical cocktail.
You might want to go and look to see what kind of seed oil has been used in your rye bread.
Meanwhile I am going to return to my butter fried eggs (very low temperature) and avocado salad with beet and spinach greens.

[Grandan]

)
Actually, he said that many foods containing polyunsaturates are healthy and "essential", meaning you need them. You have skipped his essential point, it's the incorrect processing of the oils, and frying or overcooking that destroys the benefits!

Thankgod he's saying that avocado and extra virgin avocado oils, flaxseeds, and those seeds and nuts with omega-6 and omega-3 in them(notice these are polyunsaturates?) are very healthy as part of a healthy diet. They contain essential oils, needed to produce healthy cell membranes. They are plant based.Unfortunately he gets far too technical and most people are not going to spend 15 min. listening to technical discussions before they get to that point. His point is the wrong method used to process the oils and using them as cooking oils can destroy these wonderful benefits. And unfortunately his long technical discussion has also destroyed the message, that healthy foods can be turned into unhealthy foods by frying them at higher temperatures. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Incidentally extra virgin olive oil, also has benefits which can be destroyed if the oils are overprocessed or overheated.
Now I think I'll go enjoy my guacamole on rye , and free-range scrambled eggs.

I'd rather believe the doctor than some unknown on a forum. Just sayin. Also I do not believe the original post missed any point, that is why he posted the video.

It takes some serious guts to stand up in front of a bunch of heath professionals and take on this issue head on. I have totally bought into his ideas. I watched this video a few years back and had been off seed oils for some time. I think I needed a refresher and Knobbe is the best.

[Silverstarqueen]

Wow, kind of obsessive to worry about healthy rye flour? (0% fat in the bread btw). Aren't you more concerned about the "polyunsaturated fat" in the guacamole? Don't take my word from it, even the long winded presenter in the video said it was the processing of the oils, not oils occuring naturally in seeds, avocados, nuts. But you won't take that if I say the same? lol.
"Rye bread and rye flour assist in regulation as well as improvement in blood glucose profile. The study was conducted on effects of rye in patients which was tested during breakfast meals. It was concluded that bran rye breads, whole grain rye products and endosperm rye flours improved glycemic profiles, improve sensitivity to insulin and stabilize insulin responses. It showed that rye flour helps to manage and reduce the chances of diabetes.

Lower inflammation
The study conducted on patients having metabolic syndrome were provided 12 week diet of pasta and rye. It showed better insulin responses after meal and lower inflammation in the body in comparison to 12 week diet of wheat bread, oats and potatoes. It lowered inflammation in metabolic syndrome patients which is helpful to lower the risk of diabetes.

Regulate genes
Everyone has certain genes in the body which makes person more naïve to various conditions, lifestyle and diet can convoy these genes to be down regulated. The study shows that when the oat-wheat-potato diet was replaced with rye products, it assist down regulate genes which could result to diabetes and other serious health problems. Research showed that patients with oat-wheat-potato diet have up-regulated genes related with negative health outcomes which make rye a better option."