No label

[Smuckers]

Having grown up with parents who had gay friends, I know that they were born homosexual. Life can be tough enough without adding the extra burden. I find it ludicrious to lump in being gay with being an addict. The whole "I'm christian and therefore love everybody" is stone age rhetoric.

[Nebula]

Gay. Somehow I don't think this thread is going to get past that particular label.

[tawnylee]

Having grown up with parents who had gay friends, I know that they were born homosexual. Life can be tough enough without adding the extra burden. I find it ludicrious to lump in being gay with being an addict. The whole "I'm christian and therefore love everybody" is stone age rhetoric.

[CountryAtHeart]

Gay. Somehow I don't think this thread is going to get past that particular label.

Actually, I don't think this thread is going to get past the label of "Christian". Too bad...

[Saxon]

...all I am saying is it goes against my beliefs as a Christian….

why?

what did jesus say about same sex marriage?

The bible says a man shall take a wife .... its also stated that sex between men is wrong ....

you misunderstood the question...

what did jesus say about same sex marriage?

ya know...

in the NEW testament.

and don't quote to me paul..

what did jesus say about same sex marriage that you base your CHRISTian beliefs on?

I dont believe Christ mentioned same sex marriage eyepop well not by name anyway just that a man shal take a 'wife' which Im sure is not a term applied to a man I dont think

Well If anyone has any ideas to help with my suggestions on getting a message out there then Id love to get some PM's on it

[bdbnkr]

First I will say that you are labeling yourself.

I believe marriage by octagenerians to be wrong. To me this is backed up by the fact that the plumbing is not designed to allow reproduction in octagenerian relationships.

let's sing...

if you're 'christian' and you know it...
clap your hands
if you're 'christian' and you know it..
we'd know it.


__________________
he who sings,
prays twice

So what if I am? I am proud to be labeled a Christian.

[bdbnkr]

Having grown up with parents who had gay friends, I know that they were born homosexual. Life can be tough enough without adding the extra burden. I find it ludicrious to lump in being gay with being an addict. The whole "I'm christian and therefore love everybody" is stone age rhetoric.

Actually it should read I am a Christian and therfore I SHOULD love everyone. No one gets it right all of the time. I do not see a problem with striving for it though.

You seem to have your timelines confused... the Christ lived 2000 years ago... long after the stone age. I actually have my doubts that the average cave man cared about much besides his next meal.

I fail to understand why promoting loving your neighbor is a bad thing... Only someone who is completely self absorbed would suggest that loving others is a bad thing.

[Smuckers]

Having grown up with parents who had gay friends, I know that they were born homosexual. Life can be tough enough without adding the extra burden. I find it ludicrious to lump in being gay with being an addict. The whole "I'm christian and therefore love everybody" is stone age rhetoric.

Actually it should read I am a Christian and therfore I SHOULD love everyone. No one gets it right all of the time. I do not see a problem with striving for it though.

You seem to have your timelines confused... the Christ lived 2000 years ago... long after the stone age. I actually have my doubts that the average cave man cared about much besides his next meal.

I fail to understand why promoting loving your neighbor is a bad thing... Only someone who is completely self absorbed would suggest that loving others is a bad thing.

Stone Age was an exaggeration. I am sorry you took it so literally. I realize the timeline between caveman and Jesus. Thank you for the history lesson.

Lots of christians stand behind a very pious and condescending version of loving thy neighbour. My interaction, unfortunately, with christians has been poor. That extends from when I was a kid straight through to adulthood. I've met a lot of Sunday warriors.

Not sure where self- absorbed makes any sense in reference to myself. I don't believe I said loving others was a bad thing.

[Saxon]

Having grown up with parents who had gay friends, I know that they were born homosexual. Life can be tough enough without adding the extra burden. I find it ludicrious to lump in being gay with being an addict. The whole "I'm christian and therefore love everybody" is stone age rhetoric.

Actually it should read I am a Christian and therfore I SHOULD love everyone. No one gets it right all of the time. I do not see a problem with striving for it though.

You seem to have your timelines confused... the Christ lived 2000 years ago... long after the stone age. I actually have my doubts that the average cave man cared about much besides his next meal.

I fail to understand why promoting loving your neighbor is a bad thing... Only someone who is completely self absorbed would suggest that loving others is a bad thing.

Stone Age was an exaggeration. I am sorry you took it so literally. I realize the timeline between caveman and Jesus. Thank you for the history lesson.

Lots of christians stand behind a very pious and condescending version of loving thy neighbour. My interaction, unfortunately, with christians has been poor. That extends from when I was a kid straight through to adulthood. I've met a lot of Sunday warriors.

Not sure where self- absorbed makes any sense in reference to myself. I don't believe I said loving others was a bad thing.

Unfortunately you are right there, I have met Christians and thought to myself...how bold they have been... I once heard a christian preaching ( in not a nice way) to a homeless man who was begging for money... I always regret not saying what I felt God was asking me to say to the want to be preacher...

" you did those things unto me"

I dont know.......... Perhaps we could all use a little humility these days

[Smuckers]

Saxon, I could not agree more.

[sooperphreek]

promoting the loving of your neighbor with words and no actions is precisely the point i made earlier in the thread. the fact that there is a church entity and building in a community does not mean that the organization is enhancing the lives of their neighbors and community. thus i will try to educate what the church jargon literally means when you use the word "neighbor"

NEIGHBOR:
1. a person who lives near another.
2. a person or thing that is near another.
3. one's fellow human being: to be generous toward one's less fortunate neighbors.
4. a person who shows kindliness or helpfulness toward his or her fellow humans: to be a neighbor to someone in distress.
5. (used as a term of address, esp. as a friendly greeting to a stranger): Tell me, neighbor, which way to town? –adjective 6. situated or living near another: one of our neighbor nations.
–verb (used with object) 7. to live or be situated near to; adjoin; border on.
8. to place or bring near.
–verb (used without object) 9. to live or be situated nearby.
10. to associate with or as if with one's neighbors; be neighborly or friendly (often fol. by with).

your neighbors are the ones that religious organizations have nothing to do with because they are a hard sell when it comes to the proclamation of "churchianity". unless you place yourself under the religious societies (church buildings) in the community they have no use for you. the community holds the religious organizations up to a high standard and for good reason. they are supposed to be the way to god. but the religious organizations do the same with the community and constantly remind them of how far they fall short from the way to god. perhaps its by being judgemental or alienating themselves from the people they are supposedly here to serve. every human being suffers from the reality of being shackled to human nature (church goer or not). and the idea of serving those that dont appreciate you and your beliefs and wait for you to fall short isnt easy.

thus we go to far away places and we rebuild and we recycle and we make less of a real impact somewhere else. in many places its a yearly thing and they just wait the 365 days for the next handouts. but these people appreciate it because they have nothing. so in the end we feel gratified. and everyone wants instant gratification. not to mention that the church organizations only go for a relatively short period of time and then they come back. there is no pressure and no risk involved for these people when they do that. the wrongs and mistakes are thousands of miles away and they dont have to be reminded of them on a daily basis like it would be if it was in front of our neighbors.

this is the essence i think of the addage dont judge or you will be yourself. when the religious organizations point out the things that people in the community do (that in principle we dont agree with) then of course the community will want to lash back and nit pick the religious organizations. its a no win situation. when you go to a 3rd world nation and you are being chaperoned by a religious associate (pastor) from that country an ambasador of sorts. and then pass out fliers or make brick huts for religious organizations and their symapathizers, then you are pre disposed not to judge them because they are what is in church jargon "believers" and or almost "believers". talk about the easy way out.

rather than religious organizations labeling themselves "christians" which historically meant "christ like" (and in reality was a stigma in the early societies) because they go to a building on sundays and then religious studies and get togethers a couple of times per week. why not actually do what the bible commands the believer to do. if you are not sleeping through the half hour sermons on sunday then you should be able to glean through the religious retoric from your pastor what it is you are really supposed to be doing to make christ stand up and take notice of you in heaven. let your conscience or perhaps in church jargon let the spirit tell you. the truth is out there.

and again as i described earlier in this thread. remember who it was that jesus surrounded himself with. since he was a by product in his lineage of incest and murder and decieit and all the things that in principle the religious organizations cant tolerate. he surrounded himself with the people that the religious organizations reject in society. the religious organizations villify the pharisees in the new testament but what does the mirror show about the religious organizations of today? one of jesus's closest associates was a prostitute. if today a prostitute (through personal epiphany through christ) came to any one in a religious organization and tried to associate with them would they? or would they make her rigorously be scutinized and change so that she would be able to immerse herself in the sanitized self sanctified world that the religious organizations try to portray in their societies and organizations to the communites they live in? the societies religious associatons live in are dirty and they spend so much time sweeping and cleaning the shells that they associate in-that they never spend time in the dirt.

maybe if proclaimed christians spent more time taking what the bible says is the plank out of their own eyes and refined their own lives not worrying about others do then there would really be change. i mean when peter read from his own ancient form of the bible and shared simple truths in a genuine way there were thousands of lives changed in one day. i guess the religious organizations should be thankfull that he didnt get on the soap box and lambast the ills of society. otherwise he would have probably been dead on the spot. because in his day and age people were less tolerant than we have to be today. not to mention he was "christ like" and that meant he was an enemy of the state. but he indeed was blessed because he was persecuted. not pampered like proclaimed christians are today. anyways thats all for now i guess

[Saxon]

Deja vu

Well I have no clue which churches you have researched there but were it not for churches in the community we would not have a great many of the charities we now have.... foodbank...Sally Ann..heavens door. etc etc the list goes on and on..abroad too.... my own personal view on a 'neighbour' is anyone... anyone can be my neighbour you dont have to be next door, you could be someone I have met for the first time...it makes no odds you are a neighbour in life...and if you have need of it and I can...I'll help...if I see you struggle and I can... I'll help... I dont pretend to be perfect because I am far from even close....but I do strive to be good...I strive constantly to be the best I can be with what I've got...

[Nebula]

Deja vu, you're way off topic. Or at least, I hope you're way off topic.

Saxon began this thread about labels given to people and how they can be used to hurt. I have no idea what your long-winded post above has to do with the topic at hand.

Oh, and by the way, have you ever heard of the SHIFT key? It's typically used to capitalize the first letter of each new sentence. Makes it way easier to read.

[bdbnkr]

promoting the loving of your neighbor with words and no actions is precisely the point i made earlier in the thread. the fact that there is a church entity and building in a community does not mean that the organization is enhancing the lives of their neighbors and community. thus i will try to educate what the church jargon literally means when you use the word "neighbor"

NEIGHBOR:
1. a person who lives near another.
2. a person or thing that is near another.
3. one's fellow human being: to be generous toward one's less fortunate neighbors.
4. a person who shows kindliness or helpfulness toward his or her fellow humans: to be a neighbor to someone in distress.
5. (used as a term of address, esp. as a friendly greeting to a stranger): Tell me, neighbor, which way to town? –adjective 6. situated or living near another: one of our neighbor nations.
–verb (used with object) 7. to live or be situated near to; adjoin; border on.
8. to place or bring near.
–verb (used without object) 9. to live or be situated nearby.
10. to associate with or as if with one's neighbors; be neighborly or friendly (often fol. by with).

I think you miss the symbolism of the term love thy neighbor... it is really just another way of saying "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

your neighbors are the ones that religious organizations have nothing to do with because they are a hard sell when it comes to the proclamation of "churchianity". unless you place yourself under the religious societies (church buildings) in the community they have no use for you. the community holds the religious organizations up to a high standard and for good reason. they are supposed to be the way to god. but the religious organizations do the same with the community and constantly remind them of how far they fall short from the way to god. perhaps its by being judgemental or alienating themselves from the people they are supposedly here to serve. every human being suffers from the reality of being shackled to human nature (church goer or not). and the idea of serving those that dont appreciate you and your beliefs and wait for you to fall short isnt easy.

A true Christian recognizes that we all fall short of the Glory of God. Some people fall short through bad lifestyle choices. Some fall short by claiming to be better than others (self righteous Christians for example). However, anyone who has truly accepted Christ has to first recognize that he is no better than anyone else. Lumping all Christians together here like you have paints an unfair portrait. Many Christians serve... feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, working with troubled youth, caring for seniors who have no one else, etc. These silent servants are the ones you do not notice are the ones making a real difference in peoples' lives. They are not doing for any reason other than it is right.

thus we go to far away places and we rebuild and we recycle and we make less of a real impact somewhere else. in many places its a yearly thing and they just wait the 365 days for the next handouts. but these people appreciate it because they have nothing. so in the end we feel gratified. and everyone wants instant gratification. not to mention that the church organizations only go for a relatively short period of time and then they come back. there is no pressure and no risk involved for these people when they do that. the wrongs and mistakes are thousands of miles away and they dont have to be reminded of them on a daily basis like it would be if it was in front of our neighbors.

So we shouldn't help people in far away places? Did it ever occur to you that Christians help these people because it is right to do so. There are more people than the ones in our own back yard. Did you happen to notice the news over the last few years were Christian missionaries were taken hostage and sometimes executed in the middle east. What would you define as risk? I find it interesting that you are critizing people for trying to make a difference in people's lives. Usually these trips are short because the people making them have jobs and familie and lives and can not commit to more than a short trip. Many of the people who go on these trips are the same people who volunteer throughout the rest of the year right here at home. But wait they are after instant gratification. They should try to be more selfless and take their family to Disneyland...

this is the essence i think of the addage dont judge or you will be yourself. when the religious organizations point out the things that people in the community do (that in principle we dont agree with) then of course the community will want to lash back and nit pick the religious organizations. its a no win situation. when you go to a 3rd world nation and you are being chaperoned by a religious associate (pastor) from that country an ambasador of sorts. and then pass out fliers or make brick huts for religious organizations and their symapathizers, then you are pre disposed not to judge them because they are what is in church jargon "believers" and or almost "believers". talk about the easy way out.

It is possible to judge behaviors that are harmful without judging the individual performing the behavior. Yes there are plenty of self righteous people out there who get kicks out of convincing themselves that they are better than others, but there are plenty of others who just want to help others escape the captivity of destructive behavior. Just because I tell someone that I their behavior is wrong does not mean I am judging the person. I have plebty of bad behaviors that I struggle with myself and some people have pointed them out to. Sometimes they are being self righteous, other times they are merely trying to help me overcome behaviors that are harmful to others.

rather than religious organizations labeling themselves "christians" which historically meant "christ like" (and in reality was a stigma in the early societies) because they go to a building on sundays and then religious studies and get togethers a couple of times per week. why not actually do what the bible commands the believer to do. if you are not sleeping through the half hour sermons on sunday then you should be able to glean through the religious retoric from your pastor what it is you are really supposed to be doing to make christ stand up and take notice of you in heaven. let your conscience or perhaps in church jargon let the spirit tell you. the truth is out there.

Actually Christian was a term first recorded by the author of Acts. It meant follower of Christ and yes it was initially meant to be derogatory. However the early followers of Christ did not interpret it as aninsult. Being a Christian has nothing to do with making Christ stand up and take notice of you. You talk about Christians being self righteous but to me you seem to be deomstrating the same behavior. You obviously have a very limited understanding of what it means to be Christian. Christian does not mean doer of good works (that should be one of the fruits but it earns you no points with Jesus). Christian means a follower of Christ. It means having accepted Christ as your savior. Part of which is recognizing that no one is good enough for God with out the intercession of Christ. Even after you have accepted Christ it makes you no better than anyone else because it is Christ, not you, that is allowing an ongoing personal relationship with God. Loving others is a fruit of this not a requirement.

and again as i described earlier in this thread. remember who it was that jesus surrounded himself with. since he was a by product in his lineage of incest and murder and decieit and all the things that in principle the religious organizations cant tolerate. he surrounded himself with the people that the religious organizations reject in society. the religious organizations villify the pharisees in the new testament but what does the mirror show about the religious organizations of today? one of jesus's closest associates was a prostitute. if today a prostitute (through personal epiphany through christ) came to any one in a religious organization and tried to associate with them would they? or would they make her rigorously be scutinized and change so that she would be able to immerse herself in the sanitized self sanctified world that the religious organizations try to portray in their societies and organizations to the communites they live in? the societies religious associatons live in are dirty and they spend so much time sweeping and cleaning the shells that they associate in-that they never spend time in the dirt.

I will agree with you on this point. As Christian we really fail here. Many do not want to be seen with those they perceive as being beneath them and treat Christianity like an exclusive club. This is not Christian behavior. Those who do it do not deserve to be treated with any less love than the ones they are doing it to. Remember, we all fall short and everyone should be treated with love and compassion.

maybe if proclaimed christians spent more time taking what the bible says is the plank out of their own eyes and refined their own lives not worrying about others do then there would really be change. i mean when peter read from his own ancient form of the bible and shared simple truths in a genuine way there were thousands of lives changed in one day. i guess the religious organizations should be thankfull that he didnt get on the soap box and lambast the ills of society. otherwise he would have probably been dead on the spot. because in his day and age people were less tolerant than we have to be today. not to mention he was "christ like" and that meant he was an enemy of the state. but he indeed was blessed because he was persecuted. not pampered like proclaimed christians are today. anyways thats all for now i guess

Again I agree with much of what you say here... but want to ad that Jesus and the early Christian teaches did lambast the the ills of society. The "plank from your own eyes" is actually part of a message delivered to people pointing out on of the ills of society. Paul preached regularily about the ills of sexual immorality. I do not think that the church should stop preaching about the ills of society. I do think that they should be very careful to be clear that it is the ills that we are against, not the society.

[sooperphreek]

HEY DAVE I FIGURED ID TAKE IT A STEP FURTHER AND MAKE IT REAL EASY TO READ FOR YA. I WASNT OFF TOPIC BECAUSE THE THREAD IS ABOUT LABELS OR THE LACK THEREOF. I THINK MOST PEOPLE IN ORGANIZED RELIGION AND IN A BIBLE BELT LIKE KELOWNA AND THE VALLEY ARE ONLY THAT....A LABEL OF A "CHRISTIAN". AS FAR AS THE SPLIT HAIRS ON MY THOUGHT OUT AND RELEVANT POST (IN MY OPINION) I WAS FULLY PREPARED FOR THAT AND I WAS ACTUALLY HAPPY TO SEE SOME GOOD AND VALID POINTS AS OPPOSED TO PETTY ONES. JUST A TRIBUTE TO HOW SOME PEOPLE HAVE SO MANY POST NUMBERS I GUESS. AND AS FAR AS THE REBUTTLE OF THE NEIGHBOR AND MISSIONARY POINT I THINK THAT GOING AWAY IS FOR THE GLORY AND NOT THE CHANGE. AND IMAGINE IF THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS GOING TO THE MISSIONARIES WENT INTO OUR OWN COMMUNITIES AND HELPED THOSE SAME SALLY ANNS AND FOOD BANKS AND THE HOMELESS. THERE WOULD BE NO SUFFERING AT HOME AND THE ORGANIZED CHURCHES WOULD REALLY HAVE SOMETHING TO ACTUALLY CRY AT THE PULPIT STAIRS ABOUT DURING THE SONG (WHOOPS I MEAN WORSHIP) PART OF THE SERVICE. ITS NOT ABOUT THE BRAGGING YOU SAY? THATS FUNNY CONSIDERING THAT I HAVE BEEN TO SERVICES DURING MY LIFE WHEN IT WAS MISSIONARY MONTH AND IT WAS A SHOULDER SLAPPING FEST PLEDGING TO "GIVE MORE" NEXT YEAR. IF THATS NOT FOR GLORY THEN WHAT IS? ANYWAYS THANKS FOR THE THOUGHTS AND KUDOS TO THE WELL THOUGHT OUT RESPONSES.