Religion is Linked to Immoral Behavior in New Study

[steven lloyd]

Aint gonna plough through all the lack of logic displayed in this thread, but it seems clear to me that christianity as practiced hereabouts isnt working. I think its because if you believe in a saviour, you no longer need to take ultimate responsibility for your actions.

Wow! Have you ever missed the point!

[Mr Danksworth]

If there were groups who supported incest wanting us to accept that you would hear more of a discussion on that topic as well.

http://listverse.com/religion/top-6-inc ... the-bible/

Wasn't too long ago some of the non religious on here were saying if consenting adults want to have a sexual relationship it was none of our business.

I have no problem with polyamory. The problem with that is that it is mainly practiced by the hyper-fundamentalists of religions. This leads to 10-14 year old girls being forced into marriages to older men. In these communities women are so controlled and dehumanized that 'consenting adults' isn't a factor. The men in these communities treat the women like chattel, there to be used for breeding children to raise the herd. I think that is why they do it. they realized long ago that their beliefs are too twisted for public consumption, so they need to breed their own flock, Joseph Smith did that, how many wives did he have? Add in a few guys who wanted lots of wives and Voila! Mormonism is born.
What are the results ? Deformed, *bleep* children. Physical and sexual abuse, and virtual slavery (as you cannot leave these communities easily). I feel sorry for any female that is born into this. This is the legacy of your church. You can't whitewash it away.

[Big ned]

Sorry soulra, you can't have it both ways. You have no problem with polygamy, but the practise of it is *bleep*? You make absolutely no sense. Also, you need to study genetics a little bit more ( or possibly mormon history if you are feeling the need to comment on it). The genetics become a problem when you have a small gene pool and it reproduces over several generations. Joseph and the early saints practised polygamy for just a few decades ( to raise up a righteous posterity unto the Lord, as it says in both the Bible and the history of the LDS church) with less than 5% of the membership involved in the practise. Many times it was a necessity due to the murders of the fathers of large families from the mobocracy the early saints had to endure.

I agree that what some of the radical fundamentalists are doing today is disgusting and should be stopped, but that is a far cry from what the early LDS church did. Your attempt to tie the two together is weak and transparent. Just as you calling polygamy *bleep* and then saying you have no problem with it makes no sense.

[Big ned]

Aint gonna plough through all the lack of logic displayed in this thread, but it seems clear to me that christianity as practiced hereabouts isnt working. I think its because if you believe in a saviour, you no longer need to take ultimate responsibility for your actions.

Wow nibs, if you think that is what a saviour is all about you really have missed the boat on christianity. The provided saviour provides a way for us to repent and through his grace and mercy the demands of justice are met. Repentance means you make amends for you wrong doing and don't return to the action or inaction. By it's very nature repentance means you take responsibility for your actions.

What I find is a lack of logic is the number of people who will come on here and just spew anything without having any background in the subject. That's just not logical. Spock would be sorely disappointed.

[I Think]

Hey Soulra, just an observation here, - had the opportunity on two occasions to observe Mormon groups in action, the thing I noticed foremost was that the Mormons did not play with their kids.
I organized games with the local and mormon kids (interesting due to language differences).

But hang in there, the logic(?) displayed by the Christians is astounding, the bible proves that the bible exists, it doesnt prove anything else!
It (the bible) doesn't make a very good philosophy for living, the Christians break every rule in the book, and make up rules that just arent in the book. "Thou shalt not kill" - except after someone is found guilty, or is sent off to war to kill the non believers. Life begins at conception (ain't in the bible), the little fishies and the little eggies arent human, but they magically become human when they meet?. Divorce is proscribed in the bible - but they do it anyway. Love thy neighbour unless he lives on the other side of a line drawn on a map 500 (+/-) years ago.
Any how, do you really want to spend eternity with the likes of the people who make some of the dumb remarks in this thread? (including me)

[Big ned]

Come on nibs.. get real. Are you sure that you even know what a mormon is? Where were you that you were organizing games for mormons that didn't speak your language?

I find it hard to believe the mormons didn't play with their children due to the fact that everything we teach revolves around the family as the eternal unit. We don't go to community events in groups, you wouldn't even know if a mormon was at an event unless they came up and told you they were mormon. There is something very fishy about your post and it may just be a very transparent attempt to try and make religious people look bad.

[I Think]

Now Ned, I didn't say that the Mormons didn't speak my language, I also didn't say that the local kids didn't speak my language. The interesting thing to me was that the two groups of kids didn't speak the same language. Each group of kids recognized the "kidness" in the other, but didn't know how to bridge the language barrier. I organized kids games while the adults were sitting in a circle reading and talking. During both periods lasting days at a time, not once did I see any mormon (thats what they said they were) actually play with a kid. The kids were left to themselves while these loooong study sessions went on. Please dont mis quote me or make illogical inferences to my postings, it just shows your lack of ability to actually understand things as they are, as opposed to the brain washing that is a fact of life for the churchified.

[Big ned]

You are the one who is going to have to be more specific... I am mormon and the description you gave of a group of people not playing with their children as an attempt to make the mormon population appear uncaring about their children is something that I am going to call you on. I've spent many years with the mormon people and your inference is completely wrong. I also still suspect you are not at all talking about the church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints membership, because ... again.. they don't go in groups to social events outside of their church socials.

You may have been dealing with an offshoot group the still believes in polygamy or something, so come on... come clean an quit trying to make outlandish suggestions for the wow factor. Those who have interacted with LDS people (and there are a number of them on this discussion board) know full well you are off in left field on this one.

I understand things as they are because I am a part of the group you are trying to make an inference about.

[I Think]

Ah Ned, exactly what do you want me to be specific about? Both of the groups I observed said they were mormon, they said they were each from the SLC area Utah, I have no idea if they were splinter groups, I also have no idea if they practiced polygamy. (in my opinion there is nothing wrong with polygamy if engaged in by consenting adults - not brainwashed 14YO kids forced to marry geezers). I observed both groups over a several day period. In one of the groups I played with the kids, their parents did not. In the other group at a different time and place, I did not play with the kids, neither did the parents.
With both groups I observed the adults taking part in "study groups" where the kids were excluded and the parents and other adults sat in a circle and talked with each other.
On yet a third occasion in St George Utah at a campground, I observed another group of people who I presume were mormon (but have no actual knowledge re their faith) and observed that as with the other groups, there was no play time between adults and children. This is nothing more than my observation, (and has not been stated as otherwise). If you understand logic, you will recognize that I am not presenting proof, simply my observation.

[Big ned]

What are you doing playing with kids while adults are in study groups? What organization were you working for? Why are you assuming they are Mormons? Why were the groups speaking two different languages? You are very thin on your accounting and I am interested in why a group of mormons would choose to go somewhere as a block. You don't seem to be very forthcoming with this. You seem able to determine that Mormons don't play with their kids, but unable to determine if there are way more women than men, or if they dress like hutterites with handmade clothes... All these things would be helpful in determining if they were actually mormons or if they were some radical splinter group.

You have piqued my interest and I am just interested in more information... that's all. What were they studying in their groups? I want to know why your "observation" is much different from my experience.

I would find it hard to interact with my kids if I was involved in study group... Guess I'm not a great multitasker.

[I Think]

Ah Ned, You need to go back and read my posts, you obviously have not. Then, if you ask questions to which the answers have not already been stated I will answer them.

[I Think]

Ned, answer me these,
Is it true that Joe Smith was charged/convicted of financial fraud in New York before he went to Utah to found lds?
Is it true that mormons in the past or present turf out some of the adolescent boys so that the elders can monopolize the young girls - when did that practice end?
Are adolescent boys made to join hierarchical study groups that meet each evening, if so is this a method of brainwashing?

[Big ned]

Happy to answer.
Joseph Smith was charged with many things, but never convicted of anything. Most were trumped up charges by members of mobs that were trying anything they could to get the prophet put away.

Joseph was murdered after he and some other leaders of the church had submitted willingly to be held for another groundless charge... this was in Carthage, Illinois.. so Joseph never did get to Utah. The charge of fraud was laid after the church was founded and he was not convicted of it... simply no evidence to support the charge.

2. No, this was never true. You are mistaking the real lds church with the fundamentalists that splintered well over a hundred years ago. The mainstream church is one of the fastest growing religions in the world with over 13 million members. The group you are thinking of has a few thousand between a couple of different locations in western north america.

3. no

Now will you please answer my questions... simply interested. If you read my questions carefully in my previous post, you will find you have answered none of them.

[I Think]

As said in my posts, individuals in the two groups TOLD ME THEY WERE MORMON.
as said in my posts, I ORGANIZED GAMES BETWEEN THE LOCALS AND THE MORMON KIDS
where did I say I was working for any group, and why would you assume I was?
More women than men? didnt look like a lopsided group, what does your question have to do with anything I wrote about - RED HERRING
Their clothing appeared to be conventional and pretty appropriate for the locale
How the hell would I know what they were studying on? I wasnt invited.
You seem to infer that it was improper to play with mormon kids, at all times, at all times, the games I organized were within the plain view of parents of both the mormon kids and the local kids, dont make sleazy inuendo that my actions were improper. (the mormons werent always in study groups nor did I say they were!)
My observation is that the mormon groups I have observed dont play with their kids, maybe yours does.
Now if you have any sensible questions to ask that have not been set out in my earlier posts I will answer them, but as you can see above, you are asking questions that I answered already.

[Big ned]

Well nibs, if you took my question as innuendo that you were doing something inappropriate then you better settle down. You still don't make any sense. Now you are saying that both groups were mormon and before you said one group was local and the other was mormon.

The reason I assume you were hired is that you were there with the kids while the adults were in a study group. did you just walk in off the street or were you part of an organization that was hired to watch the kids while the adults were in a study group? That is why I asked the question... If both groups were mormon, why were you there if you hadn't been hired to organize games. Also, if one of the groups spoke a different language, isn't it possible that it was a cultural difference rather than accusing the LDS religion of ignoring their children? come on, you are avoiding answering the questions and it leaves suspicion in my mind. Please answer them straighforwardly as I did yours.